Continued: (Ed) Atheism Plus/Free Thought Blogs (FTB)

[shuttlt]

Wine and Scotch party[/post] has come forward to discuss how drunk anyone was when they left that room.

Probably all too drunk to remember.

 

[Horatius]

Jeff could only testify to the fact that she was drunk. I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise.

Except, of course, for Shermer himself.

She was sober. I was sober.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Except, of course, for Shermer himself.

Total *********** sleezebag.

 

[d4m10n]

In Warriorland, any amount of alcohol means you can't give consent.

Thankfully, no one is going to make such a silly argument here.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

If I had a one night stand with person A, and then person B emailed me asking about what I did last night, it's not 100% certain that I'm going to think it's B's business and give them a full and detailed answer, especially if I haven't had a conversation with person A about whether they want me talking about it.

I'm loath to get into all of this again, but in the first story not only did he deny that they'd had sex, but said that those rumours had been started by other people. Then he says that they did have sex after walking around for hours and that they were both sober by the time they'd finished walking. He has no witnesses that corroborate either that they walked around for hours, or that Smith was sober by that point. Smith has a witness that corroborates her timeline (which directly contradicts Shermer's), that she was very drunk, and that she claimed at the time that she was drunk.

Could Smith and her witness be lying? Sure. But their story has not changed. Shermer's has, quite a lot. So he's definitely lying in one or other of the accounts.

And it's worth bearing in mind that Shermer wasn't emailed asking what he did that night. He initiated the communication and, entirely unprompted and off his own bat, decided to outline exactly how he hadn't had sex with Smith but how there had been 2 guys at the party who were jealous of him talking to her so decided to spread rumours about them having had sex.

It's not proof of anything, it's compatible with either a criminal or non-criminal version of events.

I've not claimed anything is proof of anything. I do think, however, that there's enough corroboration on Smith's side and enough doubt on Shermer's side for me, personally, to think it probable that he did rape her.

Anyway, that's probably my last word on this particular subject as it's been done to death and nobody's going to change their minds about anything at this stage.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Thankfully, no one is going to make such a silly argument here.

Yes, but this is the A+ thread, so we have to acknowledge their stupidity.

 

[d4m10n]

Could Smith and her witness be lying? Sure. But their story has not changed. Shermer's has, quite a lot. So he's definitely lying in one or other of the accounts.

That is far from obvious to me.

Here is the first version from Shermer:

I wanted to let you know that I tracked down the source of those vicious rumors about Alison Smith and I that I mentioned to you: at the scotch/cigar party that Thursday night there were a couple of young guys in their 20s […] Anyway, as you know at these parties everyone gets pretty smashed and has a good time and there’s a lot of flirting and such. I got there around 10:30 […] and was just going to hang around for about an hour, but everyone there was plying me with scotch and yaking it up, and there was a group in the bathroom with their feet in the tub, and people lying around on the bed, etc. So I was just joining in having a good time.

Alison showed up around 11:30, and of course she’s young and cute and these two guys were panting big time to be with her, but she obviously wasn’t interested in them that way, and was just moving around the room having fun, but when she was hanging on me now and then I could tell that these guys were really pissed off. Long story short, later the next day, after talking to you, I saw both of them standing together and confronted them about the gossip rumors, and [one of them] admitted he was mad at me because he said he felt like I was preventing him from, in his words, “getting into her pants,” and the dreadlocks guy said that he was really drunk and that “I admit that I was running my mouth off.” So, basically, they admitted that it was them spreading the nonsense that I was trying to get Alison drunk and take advantage of her. For the record, by the way, most of the people at that party, Alison especially, could drink me under the table no problem. People kept pouring me scotch, and after awhile I was pretending to drink it and then drinking water instead, and at one point Alison said something like, “hey, he’s not really drinking his scotch,” so I was busted and everyone gave me a hard time (in good fun of course).

Anyway, I wanted you to know that Alison is a good kid and this was just a typical gossip rumor thing that goes on all the time, but that I’m a bigger target than most in this small skeptical pond, so I have to be especially careful.

.

Here is the second version from Shermer:

Late one night, at the June 2008 TAM, around 10 or 11, I wandered over to someone’s suite at the hotel where there was a party going on. It was jammed with people. Everyone was drinking and having fun. I talked to lots of people, including Alison, whom I knew reasonably well. We were talking and flirting, and after some time she took me by the hand and led me to the bathroom and closed the door behind us, where she proceeded to proposition me in a very direct, assertive, and physical fashion. I was taken aback. Sex in a hotel bathroom isn’t my idea of a romantic evening, plus I could tell she’d been drinking, so I encouraged her to put herself back together and rejoin the party. We went back to mingling with the crowd and a short while after that we went outside to get some fresh air and we ended up walking and talking for a couple hours out on the Las Vegas strip. We did not drink for the several hours we walked together after the suite incident. She was sober. I was sober. I invited her back to my room and she willingly accepted my invitation.

The second version is much more forthright about particular details, but I'm not seeing any direct factual contradictions here. If anyone can see them, and would be so kind as to highlight the relevant portions, that would surely be helpful.

 

[Meed]

By my reading of her account, the claim is not that she got drunk and then actively participated in sex in a state of poor decision making, it was that she was barely conscious and sex was something that was being done to her. So (if I have that right) the "if Shermer was drunk too does that mean he was also raped?" quip doesn't apply to this situation.

 

[devnull]

Good question. Shermer had also been drinking. Surely you'll concede that she raped him as well.

Except that several people witnessed Shermer hiding his drinks under the table.

Dont pull a muscle with all that stretching there scrut.

 

[devnull]

One lesson to learn from this...don't have sex with a person who is inebriated.

Right. Youd think thatd be obvious though, right?

 

[d4m10n]

Except that several people witnessed Shermer hiding his drinks under the table.

Name two.

 

[devnull]

Name two.

Theyre obviously not coming forward, at least here, so Im hardly gonna bring all this stuff up again for them. You can be assured though that there were others there that noticed the drink hiding gambit. From memory I think Shermer mentioned it in one of his versions of what happened.


All I wonder is how people's standards of evidence would change if it were a relative of their's.

This isnt a court. I think it's pretty obvious at this point that it's highly likely Shermer gets up to no good. We make these sorts of judgements all day. Im not asking you to jail Shermer, or stone him in the street - I simply think it would be prudent to be careful around him given the probability that he can sometimes get a bit rapey.

 

[d4m10n]

Theyre obviously not coming forward, at least here, so Im hardly gonna bring all this stuff up again for them.

Perhaps then it is unwise to invoke them as witnesses in any place that prides itself on skepticism and the ability to independently verify things that are said to be true?

Im not asking you to jail Shermer, or stone him in the street - I simply think it would be prudent to be careful around him given the probability that he can sometimes get a bit rapey.

There is nothing rapey about moderating one's own intake, any more than there is something murderous about cleaning one's rifle. If you have witnesses that Michael was taking active steps to get Alison too drunk to be culpable for her own decisions, then let's hear from them. Otherwise it is poor form to introduce your privately held information as hearsay evidence and act all huffy that people aren't convinced.

As to jailing and stoning, you are correct to note that those are off the table. Here is the remedy which has been proposed at FtB:

Ensure that organizations promoting speakers who are the subject of multiple credible sexual assault and harassment allegations (or other epic shitweaselry) pay a steep price in reputation, endorsements, donations and attendance.

It is probably worth noting here that the organization which formerly hosted this forum is the only one on the list.

 

[Meed]

There is nothing rapey about moderating one's own intake, any more than there is something murderous about cleaning one's rifle. If you have witnesses that Michael was taking active steps to get Alison too drunk to be culpable for her own decisions, then let's hear from them. Otherwise it is poor form to introduce your privately held information as hearsay evidence and act all huffy that people aren't convinced.

It's not clear to me, based on anything I can recall from the other thread that she made a decision (drunken or otherwise) to have sex. Am I missing something?

 

[d4m10n]

It's not clear to me, based on anything I can recall from the other thread that she made a decision (drunken or otherwise) to have sex. Am I missing something?

So far as I can tell, she didn't say. Circumlocutions such as "Shermer coerced me into a position where I could not consent, and then had sex with me" don't exactly make it obvious one way or another.

According to widely respected sexologist Laci Green, if she's too drunk to drive, she's too drunk to give consent. Nevada law has a much higher threshold, the victim must be either incapable of resisting or understanding the nature of her conduct. Quite a few glasses of wine to be refilled between those endpoints.

ETA - According to Shermer, Smith made the decision to proposition him in a "very direct, assertive, and physical fashion" while still at the room party. Assign to that claim whatever probability you see fit.

 

[devnull]

This isnt a court dude

So, let's say you get randomly punched in the head in the street, and you came on here and said "OMG I just got randomly punched" youd be fine with a similar response to what Mr Rapey's victim received here?

"Yeh, that's hearsay d4m10n. Quite possibly you're making it up."

As soon as the topic turns to violence against women, everyone turns into Ben Matlock and tries to use big words. Those damn feminists trying to frame poor defenseless guys who hide drinks under the table while pretending to drink them!

Point being, given the weight of the claim and the evidence, it's very very probable that this happened as claimed. You can believe it or not, but Im guessing you wont leave your drunk 16 year daughter in his care any time soon, amiright?

Also, you do realise this wasnt an isolated incident right?

 

[H'ethetheth]

This isnt a court dude

So, let's say you get randomly punched in the head in the street, and you came on here and said "OMG I just got randomly punched" youd be fine with a similar response to what Mr Rapey's victim received here?

"Yeh, that's hearsay d4m10n. Quite possibly you're making it up."

As soon as the topic turns to violence against women, everyone turns into Ben Matlock and tries to use big words. Those damn feminists trying to frame poor defenseless guys who hide drinks under the table while pretending to drink them!

That's not really a fair analogy, seeing how "I got randomly punched" is a very unambiguous statement. Comparable would be having been headbutted in the street and complaining that "Someone coerced you into a position where it was impossible to avoid your head painfully connecting with theirs."
I'm sure that, without further elaborating on the incident, Damion would get similar answers.

Another reason is that false rape accusations can be just about as ruinous to a person as actual rape is, which is why rape accusations presented this vaguely (initially!) are scrutinized so much, and I would argue that they should be.
If you want to publically state you were raped, don't put it in terms that are so open to interpretation as to be meaningless.

All this, mind you, regardless of the fact that I am now convinced that Shermer is a creep and quite possibly a rapist.

 

[Lorentz]

All I wonder is how people's standards of evidence would change if it were a relative of their's.

That is a good point. People often stop thinking rationally when people they care about are involved.

Are you implying that's your situation?

 

[devnull]

That is a good point. People often stop thinking rationally when people they care about are involved.

Are you implying that's your situation?

Not at all. What Im saying is that, for whatever reason, some men love to tap dance when the topic is violence against women.

"Man, a guy just slammed into my car at the lights!"
"really? Are you ok"

"man, some guy just stuck his hand up my skirt on the train!"
"really? Are you sure? Maybe it was an accident..... you shouldnt wear those short skirts...... Im not sure you could make this stick in court......"

 

[d4m10n]

Man, a guy just slammed into my car six years ago, and although my passenger and I said nothing at the time, and continued our professional relationship with him, I'd like everyone to shun him now.

#StillNotUninvited