Continuation Part 14: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Vixen,

Wasn't it Conti who said that, in response to a particular question about the gloves possibly having Sollecito's DNA?

You are right.

I assume that Vixen is confused. The quote she was probably trying to remember was this one attributed to Hellmann:

(His verdict) "is the result of the truth that was created in the proceedings. But the real truth may be different. They may be responsible, but the evidence is not there."

The Guardian covered it, reporting the statement Hellmann made to Corriere della Sera. The problem was, as far as I remember, that the Italian had been machine translated and it wasn't what he said at all.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/oct/06/amanda-knox-judge-responsible

On March 30th, he was quoted as follows:

"For three and a half years I’ve suffered for the fate of two youths that I believed innocent and who risked to undergo a very harsh punishment for a crime that they hadn’t committed."

Also a translation, but presumably, more accurate.

Full interview here, with link to original Italian source.

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/hellmann-interview-march-30-2015/
 
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Jackie did the same thing on IIP. But wasn't Jackie American?

Jackie was indeed a yankee, and a remarkably obnoxious one. He:

  • claimed to be a successful lawyer (albeit an anonymous one :D)
  • obsessed himself with me and once offered to fight me in a car park
  • obsessed himself with Bill
  • made a tit of himself whenever he said anything about the case, which was not often
  • basically considered having read Follain equivalent to taking a PhD on the case
  • was a nasty PoS.
 
This may be of interest:

http://in.reuters.com/article/2015/04/28/portugal-mccann-libel-idINL8N0XP55820150428

The McCanns have won a libel suit for 500,000 Euros against a former investigator of the 2007 disappearance of Madeleine McCann for his alleging in a book that the girl had died in an accident and the McCanns had covered it up.

Would Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito now be able to pursue potentially successful libel suits against authors of books or articles claiming that they were involved in the murder and rape of Meredith Kercher?
 
This would be very interesting if it happened. If I was John Kercher's son I wouldn't consider doing it until after he had died.

If a son realized/ understood that Guede killed his sister and that Mez's American housemate/friend Amanda and Amanda's boyfriend were terribly injured by the prosecution, he can only exonerate his family's role in actively trying to hinder the defendants' efforts to defend themselves in the courts by speaking up sooner rather than later. Delaying to publicly recognize the 2 defendants' innocence - to postpone that - until their depressed father passes first is not the solution. Amanda and Sollecito are targets of haters. They receive death threats. How will the Kercher adult children feel if Amanda or Raffaele are wounded or killed by a hater-attacker before the Kerchers publicly recognize their innocence and try to disarm those that threaten Amanda and Raffaele in the Kercher's name.

A subject that has not been revealed is what role have the father and his adult children had in enabling, giving tacit encouragement to, or giving concrete support to the TJMK sites and the Harry Rags. Are the Kerchers mere passive enablers, or more?
 
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If a son realized/ understood that Guede killed his sister and that Mez's American housemate/friend Amanda and Amanda's boyfriend were terribly injured by the prosecution, he can only exonerate his family's role in actively trying to hinder the defendants' efforts to defend themselves in the courts by speaking up sooner rather than later. Delaying to publicly recognize the 2 defendants' innocence - to postpone that - until their depressed father passes first is not the solution. Amanda and Sollecito are targets of haters. They receive death threats. How will the Kercher adult children feel if Amanda or Raffaele are wounded or killed by a hater-attacker before the Kerchers publicly recognize their innocence and try to disarm those that threaten Amanda and Raffaele in the Kercher's name.

A subject that has not been revealed is what role have the father and his adult children had in enabling, giving tacit encouragement to, or giving concrete support to the TJMK sites and the Harry Rags. Are the Kerchers mere passive enablers, or more?

Valid points. I'm not sure what I would have done if I had come to realize what was going on during the trial. The situation would have been a little more clear cut if I judged that Maresca was exploiting my father. All difficult issues and I am just not sure what I would have done. I know that I have not always acted in completely moral or ethical ways and that knowledge makes me realize that any ideas about my own nobility need to be tempered a bit with the reality of the situation. ETA: After the final not guilty decision and the fact that AK/RS seem to be doing OK with a majority of the people (who care about this) in the US at least believing they are innocent I wouldn't have felt any moral compunction to come forward at the expense of the relationship with my father.
 
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What will the final motivation report say?

Less than 2 months to wait before we know what the judges discussed on March 25-27. What is the view here, on what it is likely to contain?

No doubt it will pull the Nencini report apart, on the basis that it makes statements of fact that are not supported by evidence. For example, the previous ISC ordered a new test of material from the kitchen knife, saying that it would be "conclusive" in determining the role of the 2 accused.

Well, the Rome lab that did the test reported that there was no DNA from the victim on the knife, and went on explicitly to state that Stefanoni's test could not be used on its own to conclude that the knife was connected to the murder.

IOW, they laid it on the line that the knife should be excluded as evidence. But Nencini concluded nevertheless that it was murder weapon, and then made up stuff about Raff's DNA also being on the knife and that Amanda was the one who had used it to stab Meredith.

The latest ISC clearly has enough to state that Nencini's conclusions were not supported by the evidence, but will they go further?
 
Jackie was indeed a yankee, and a remarkably obnoxious one. He:

  • claimed to be a successful lawyer (albeit an anonymous one :D)
  • obsessed himself with me and once offered to fight me in a car park
  • obsessed himself with Bill
  • made a tit of himself whenever he said anything about the case, which was not often
  • basically considered having read Follain equivalent to taking a PhD on the case
  • was a nasty PoS.

He also claimed to be a Mensa member.
 
anglolawyer said:
Jackie was indeed a yankee, and a remarkably obnoxious one. He:
claimed to be a successful lawyer (albeit an anonymous one )
obsessed himself with me and once offered to fight me in a car park
obsessed himself with Bill
made a tit of himself whenever he said anything about the case, which was not often
basically considered having read Follain equivalent to taking a PhD on the case
was a nasty PoS.

He also claimed to be a Mensa member.

Usually people get to know me before saying such vile things.

The worst of it was thinking that Follain was the gold standard of the case. Grinder and I get stuck in describing the nature of Follain as a source - given its True Crime format. But any conflict Grinder and I have had over that pales in significance. It's not that Follain invents stuff.... it's that he faithfully reports the inventions of PLE-types. And at that, one comes away from Follain's narrative with the sneaky suspicion that the two students might be innocent!!!

The worst thing about the car-park brawl was that it didn't happen. I'd have paid real money to see that!!
 
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Less than 2 months to wait before we know what the judges discussed on March 25-27. What is the view here, on what it is likely to contain?

No doubt it will pull the Nencini report apart, on the basis that it makes statements of fact that are not supported by evidence. For example, the previous ISC ordered a new test of material from the kitchen knife, saying that it would be "conclusive" in determining the role of the 2 accused.

Well, the Rome lab that did the test reported that there was no DNA from the victim on the knife, and went on explicitly to state that Stefanoni's test could not be used on its own to conclude that the knife was connected to the murder.

IOW, they laid it on the line that the knife should be excluded as evidence. But Nencini concluded nevertheless that it was murder weapon, and then made up stuff about Raff's DNA also being on the knife and that Amanda was the one who had used it to stab Meredith.

The latest ISC clearly has enough to state that Nencini's conclusions were not supported by the evidence, but will they go further?
The main trial, the one decreed, was Hellmann. It was going to follow either verdict from the Massei rehearsal. The jurors were of higher education (by law?). There seems nothing to change from the official motivation report from the only official de novo trial. They were declared innocent and the reasons given. While it may be boring, what is there to change?
 
He also claimed to be a Mensa member.

I was never a Mensa member, I think purely because my father was a former member and indicated that he found nothing of value there. Left to my own devices I could well have been the type to leap at membership in an organisation that "proved" my intellectual eliteness, in my youth.

A friend of mine used to be in Mensa back in the day, though. I asked him once what you got from Mensa membership, and it boiled down to sending Mensa money every year in exchange for a mensa.com email address and some logic puzzles sent by email every now and then. I suggested that given the costs and benefits involved, it might be a greater demonstration of intellectual acuity to save the money. I do not believe he is currently a member. :D
 
The main trial, the one decreed, was Hellmann. It was going to follow either verdict from the Massei rehearsal. The jurors were of higher education (by law?). There seems nothing to change from the official motivation report from the only official de novo trial. They were declared innocent and the reasons given. While it may be boring, what is there to change?

My speculation is that the CSC motivation report will echo the Hellmann court MR with the addition of the "decisive" DNA test on the knife. In annulling the Nencini verdict, the CSC MR will state that the Nencini court MR was illogical in its evaluation of evidence, point by point.

What I think the CSC won't do is to make any comment about the denial of defendant's rights by any of the courts. To state that there was a presumption of guilt starting before the Nov. 5/6, 2007 interrogations, that Guede's statements were taken from his pretrial depositions and fast-track trial into the proceedings against AK & RS without cross-examination, and that allegedly exculpatory evidence such as the DNA raw data (EDFs) and putative semen stain analysis were suppressed (ECHR "denial of facilities of defense" and "denial of equality of arms") and to make explicit that Stefanoni and other police perjured themselves, would show that the judicial system had corrupt elements.

I am hoping that the CSC MR will, however, prove me wrong and actually detail the violations of defendant's rights in this case, including those I mentioned above.
 
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The main trial, the one decreed, was Hellmann. It was going to follow either verdict from the Massei rehearsal. The jurors were of higher education (by law?). There seems nothing to change from the official motivation report from the only official de novo trial. They were declared innocent and the reasons given. While it may be boring, what is there to change?

Well yes, but they're going to have to deal with Nencini. They can't simply pretend he never happened. Similarly, they are going to have to say something about Chiefi's report and the underlying assumptions made about the case by a separate panel of the same court that produced the acquittals, even if not directly addressed to that panel. But, maybe the report will be as interesting for what it doesn't say as much as for what it does. The acquittals are a massive slap in the face for so many people in the justice system, from police and prosecutors to scientists and judges.
 
My speculation is that the CSC motivation report will echo the Hellmann court MR with the addition of the "decisive" DNA test on the knife. In annulling the Nencini verdict, the CSC MR will state that the Nencini court MR was illogical in its evaluation of evidence, point by point.

What I think the CSC won't do is to make any comment about the denial of defendant's rights by any of the courts. To state that there was a presumption of guilt starting before the Nov. 5/6, 2007 interrogations, that Guede's statements were taken from his pretrial depositions and fast-track trial into the proceedings against AK & RS without cross-examination, and that allegedly exculpatory evidence such as the DNA raw data (EDFs) and putative semen stain analysis were suppressed (ECHR "denial of facilities of defense" and "denial of equality of arms") and to make explicit that Stefanoni and other police perjured themselves, would show that the judicial system had corrupt elements.

I am hoping that the CSC MR will, however, prove me wrong and actually detail the violations of defendant's rights in this case, including those I mentioned above.

This would be fab if they do - bringing the case law of the ECHR into a motivation report and cementing its position, publicly, in Italian law. Difficult to see how they can avoid dealing with Amanda's statements, since Nencini stupidly referred to them in connection with the murder.
 
This would be fab if they do - bringing the case law of the ECHR into a motivation report and cementing its position, publicly, in Italian law. Difficult to see how they can avoid dealing with Amanda's statements, since Nencini stupidly referred to them in connection with the murder.

It's going to be difficult for the latest court not to shred the Nencini verdict. That said, I agree that they are not going to reprimand the Perugian authorities. They'll say that Nencini ignored Cheffi's ruling that the results of the DNA test on 36I was to be conclusive. I doubt that they will go much beyond that.
 
This would be fab if they do - bringing the case law of the ECHR into a motivation report and cementing its position, publicly, in Italian law. Difficult to see how they can avoid dealing with Amanda's statements, since Nencini stupidly referred to them in connection with the murder.

For Amanda's statements, I believe that they will simply refer to the Hellmann court MR, that she should have known Lumumba was innocent and named him as a murderer anyway, thus being guilty of "simple" and not "aggravated" calunnia. They will do this even if to reasonable persons that logic is invalid. The Marasca panel will annul the Nencini court verdict of aggravated calunnia, as they announced March 27, 2015. Otherwise, they would need to somehow overturn a final CSC judgment (from the Chieffi panel).
 
Back to beating the proverbial dead horse

The point I tried to make - and no doubt not well enough - is that a person becomes a suspect in the ECHR human-rights view when that person is in the custody of police and is being interrogated: asked questions or otherwise treated in a way to induce self-incriminating or (in some situations) other-incriminating answers.

Formal designation by the State judicial system of the person interrogated as a "witness" or any other category does not change the above principle.

Whether or not the person prior to the initiation of the questioning was suspected of a crime, whether in good faith or bad, is not an issue from the human rights viewpoint. The person under interrogation must be cautioned and told he or she is entitled to counsel at the start of the interrogation, and if the person chooses to waive counsel, must give informed written consent, according to ECHR case-law. ("Informed" may mean the person must have counsel to advise whether or not to waive counsel.)

....

Last week I used Google Translate on the whole testimony of Giobbi.

While taking excerpts of Giobbi's testimony literally could mean that Amanda was "suspected" because of her behavior - he does state she became an investigative target when she, in his perception, wiggled her hips and shouted "voila" after putting on booties - I was struck by some other testimony. Early on in his testimony, he states that there was a focus on the people in the cottage, and that Amanda had a relatively weak alibi. Then, later in his testimony, when he is asked to explain the blood on the light switch in the downstairs flat, where the other blood there was attributed to a cat with a bleeding ear, he says "the cat jumped".

Having read that last statement about the jumping cat, I have come to the opinion that Giobbi's references to Amanda's behavior as a source of suspicion was likely a smoke screen or cover-up. The decision to focus on Amanda was solely due to her being a "suspect of convenience" to corrupt police and an obsessed pathological prosecutor who wanted to close the case quickly and, for the prosecutor, in line with his obsessions. This line of thought about the police suspicions may be obvious to others (who believe there was a frame-up from the very beginning) or not (to those who believe there was a good-faith suspicion of Amanda based on, for example, the police believing the break-in was staged). In my hypothesis, the police decided the break-in was staged because they were framing Amanda, a key holder, who did not need to break-in to her flat. While Giobbi stated the break-in was staged and that there were glass fragments on the clothes, IIUC, there was no objective evidence presented to support this. (Please correct me if some objective evidence was presented.)

Thus, when Amanda and Raffaele were interrogated on Nov. 5/6, 2007, they were indeed "suspects". IMO, they, or at least Amanda, was a suspect as of Nov. 2, 2007. But she was a "suspect of convenience" and not because of anything an honest, rational, and objective person would consider reasonable and sufficient for an arrest. IMO, the police and prosecution motivation for the Nov. 5/6 interrogations was to obtain false "evidence" that could be placed on the arrest warrant in the explanation of "reasonable suspicion" and survive a (superficial) judicial review.

If anyone believes differently, that person is entitled to his/her opinion.

But I believe my opinion makes sense of the behavior of the police and prosecutor and is supported by an "informed" reading of Giobbi's testimony.

Again, from a human rights view point, it appears to me that the "suspect" becomes a suspect no later than when in police custody and questioned as in an interrogation - that is, questioned in a way to induce an incriminating statement, whether or not that person was a "suspect" prior to the beginning of the interrogation.
 
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For Amanda's statements, I believe that they will simply refer to the Hellmann court MR, that she should have known Lumumba was innocent and named him as a murderer anyway, thus being guilty of "simple" and not "aggravated" calunnia. They will do this even if to reasonable persons that logic is invalid. The Marasca panel will annul the Nencini court verdict of aggravated calunnia, as they announced March 27, 2015. Otherwise, they would need to somehow overturn a final CSC judgment (from the Chieffi panel).

Actually this is not what I was referring to.

This is what I was referring to - Nencini's invoking of Amanda's statements in contravention of the Gemelli ruling in 2008 used to convict for murder.

From Amanda's appeal, quoted:

“It appears suitable to also point out how the statements made by the girl to the Police and then to the Public Minister during the night of November 6, 2007, are of undeniable interest also in the context of the reconstructive evidentiary framework specifically pertaining to the murder.” (page 101)

“And on the other hand, as it has already been said, it is Amanda Marie Knox herself who places herself, even if together with Lumumba and not with Sollecito, at Piazza Grimana on the night of November 1, 2007, after 21 pm.” (page 130)

“One can hence assert not just that the statements given to the Police at 1.45 am and to the Public Minister at 5.45 am of November 6, 2007, by Amanda Marie Knox constitute a crime of calumny against Patrick Lumumba, but also that said calumny was fabricated with the specific aim of deflecting the suspicions of the Police from the defendants.” (page 142).

All of these statements make use of the content of statements whose use has been declared inadmissible by the Supreme Court already in April 2008, hence the Florence Court openly admits using against Knox documentary evidence the Supreme Court had ruled being totally inadmissible for use against its author (1.45 am statement) or against anybody (5.45 am statement)."
 
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