Continuation Part 14: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Kaosium]

It's only a question of time before she mentions the lamp. I'll be ready.

Oh.

Dear.

Could luminol be far behind?

 

[Numbers]

Readers of this thread may find interesting a recent ECHR judgment:

In today’s Chamber judgment1 in the case of François v. France (application no. 26690/11) the European Court of Human Rights held, unanimously, that there had been:
a violation of Article 5 § 1 (right to liberty and safety) of the European Convention on Human Rights.

The case concerned the placing of a lawyer in police custody after he had been assisting at the police station, in his professional capacity, a youth who was being held by the police. The Court found in particular that placing Mr François in police custody and subjecting him to a fullbody search and a blood alcohol test exceeded the security requirements and established an intention that was unconnected with the objective of police custody. The Court further noted that, at the time, there were no regulations authorising a body search that went beyond mere frisking, and also that the alcohol test had been carried out even though there was no indication that Mr François had committed an offence under the influence of alcohol.

Relevance: The police claimed they took the lawyer, Francois, into custody because of his alleged behavior in the police station itself. The police subjected Francois to certain procedures (a full-body search and an alcohol test) that were arbitrary in relation to his actual behavior. Taking Francois into custody was itself arbitrary. The reasoning of the police was arbitrary. The actions of the police in this instance can be seen as a retaliation against Francois for his legitimate attempt to represent his client's interests.

While not exact parallels, in the AK/RS case there are some similarities. It can be argued (not all posters here may agree) that the custodial (and coercive) interrogations of Knox and Sollecito on Nov. 5/6, 2007 were arbitrary (the police suspicions of them at that point were not reasonable to an objective person, or were in fact on some level arbitrary in that the alleged "suspects" were known to be probably innocent but were "suspects of convenience"). Criminal charges of calunnia against AK in regards to statements she made concerning: 1) Patrick Lumumba and 2) the police who interrogated her were in fact arbitrary measures to protect the police from investigation of their misconduct during the interrogation and were the continuation of violations of AK's rights under Italian law, including the Convention. (And the Convention and its interpretation under ECHR case-law is the supreme human rights law of Italy and other Council of Europe States.)

 

[anglolawyer]

One thing I would like to see, whether from Vixen or any PGP, is not only an acknowledgement of error but also an indication of the affect on their overall assessment of the case of the correction. They usually run away, change the subject or engage in some other evasion. When I learned the bleach receipts story was just a lie, I realised the case included lies and that it was being made by liars. That put me on the alert and raised the bar for other prosecution claims (virtually all of which have proved to be lies too). I shall be interested to see whether the high-powered brain of a 99.99% person like Vixen is proof against the human failings which distort thinking and inhibit honesty.

 

[Dan O.]

Often, along with the top end of intelligence is enhanced pattern recognition (see A Beautiful Mind for a depiction of what I am talking about). In addition to actual patterns, there are false patterns that emerge from the chaos. It takes discipline to properly sort the wheat from the chaff. Without discipline the false patterns can develope into delusions and that can create paranoia. There is clearly an alternate developmental path for delusions and paranoia that is detached from intelegence and pattern recognition.

 

[MichaelB]

I am honestly not interested in "taking sides." Clear now?

http://www.amazon.com/Nick-van-der-Leek/e/B00OW1IC44

I couldn't help but notice some idiot who claims who be a true crime author who recently wrote a book about Jodi Arias tweeted a week or so ago that he was writing a book about the Kercher case and he's been tweeting old inaccurate articles from years ago. He's a bit of a Johnny come lately if you ask me. There's already been two dozen books and documentaries.

Around the same time a new troll account appeared using the handle "CCTV" and has been tweeting stupid memes and old articles asking people to discuss the case with him. He hasn't been getting many bites.

And here you are. You seem to have followed quite a few murder cases but are hopelessly misinformed about this one.....just like the two accounts on twitter. Maybe it's just a coincidence.

Are you Nick and writing a book about the case?

 

[MichaelB]

Ouch. The reviews aren't to good on his Arias 'book'.

7 of 9 people found the following review helpful

1.0 out of 5 stars Worst book ever! March 19, 2015

By Amazon Customer

Format: Kindle Edition|Verified Purchase

I have a rule to never review a book if I don't like it. Books are not products that malfunction or break etc. We all have different preferences with books. Some prefer details about the history of the area and/or town. Some like to know in depth information about the characters while some don't etc. You get the gist.

Anyway, in my opinion, this book is the worst book I have ever read.
The author gives you information that doesn't pertain to the story. He/she talks about the weather, his cat, etc. The case is frequently compared to the Oscar Pistorious case because the authors think the cases are very similar. Not really. They also spend way too much time on the Mormon history and other religions which is unnecessary because we only need or already know the basics of Travis breaking the Mormon rules regarding sex. The authors kind of trash Travis. It's fine to point out his not so great character faults, but not to the extent they did. They even say that Travis isn't as good or great looking as everyone makes him out to be!

The facts they give you are fine, but telling the reader exactly what happened while Travis is being killed and what he is saying and what Jodi is saying and thinking during and after the murder is ludicrous! No one knows this! They continually say WTF a lot.

I regret paying for it. Even if it was free, I would not recommend this book at all.

My opinion.

8 of 12 people found the following review helpful

not worth it

ByLori G.on February 12, 2015

Format: Kindle Edition Verified Purchase

Possibly the worst, most disjointed book I've read about the arias/Alexander relationship. I was really looking forward to this and am sorely disappointed

 

[Strozzi]

Today's Washington Post newspaper has an article stating that all DNA testing at the Washington DC crime lab is suspended after accreditation authorities revoked the lab's recognition due to flaws in DNA testing.

You may see the article at:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...a43d9a-ec24-11e4-a55f-38924fca94f9_story.html

Does Italy have a national laboratory accreditation authority that certifies laboratories? If so, have they examined Stefanoni's lab?

 

[carbonjam72]

http://www.amazon.com/Nick-van-der-Leek/e/B00OW1IC44

[qimg]http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71+RTT2tvZL._UX250_.jpg[/qimg]

I couldn't help but notice some idiot who claims who be a true crime author who recently wrote a book about Jodi Arias tweeted a week or so ago that he was writing a book about the Kercher case and he's been tweeting old inaccurate articles from years ago. He's a bit of a Johnny come lately if you ask me. There's already been two dozen books and documentaries.

Around the same time a new troll account appeared using the handle "CCTV" and has been tweeting stupid memes and old articles asking people to discuss the case with him. He hasn't been getting many bites.

And here you are. You seem to have followed quite a few murder cases but are hopelessly misinformed about this one.....just like the two accounts on twitter. Maybe it's just a coincidence.

Are you Nick and writing a book about the case?

I saw the same silly twitter posts. He also claims a writing partner, a woman currently doing "research" in Italy.

Perhaps they are sharing these twitter accounts, or are together "Ms Vixen"?

I will say though, that if 'Vixen' is really this pair of sick amoral parasites, I would feel both vindicated, and disappointed.

Vixen's slipping into one discredited Guilter PR claim after another lessens my credulity in anything being said, including claims as to gender or other identity.

It's a sad strange freak show on display, with all the contestants vying for attention. It brings to mind Ergon's "faith healing" services for families with autistic kids willing to write post-dated checks. One wonders where the police are in all this. Why aren't these frauds being arrested and prosecuted?

btw, I thought with Mensa, you only had to be in the top 2% of IQ, and it was only 140? Is that wrong? In any event, I'll go on record as saying I do not believe 'Vixen" is a member of Mensa, now or ever.

 

[Strozzi]

I saw the same silly twitter posts. He also claims a writing partner, a woman currently doing "research" in Italy.

Perhaps they are sharing these twitter accounts, or are together "Ms Vixen"?

I will say though, that if 'Vixen' is really this pair of sick amoral parasites, I would feel both vindicated, and disappointed.

Vixen's slipping into one discredited Guilter PR claim after another lessens my credulity in anything being said, including claims as to gender or other identity.

It's a sad strange freak show on display, with all the contestants vying for attention. It brings to mind Ergon's "faith healing" services for families with autistic kids willing to write post-dated checks. One wonders where the police are in all this. Why aren't these frauds being arrested and prosecuted?

btw, I thought with Mensa, you only had to be in the top 2% of IQ, and it was only 140? Is that wrong? In any event, I'll go on record as saying I do not believe 'Vixen" is a member of Mensa, now or ever.

Vixen must be smart. She uses words like "whilst" just like CouldsonUK does.

 

[carbonjam72]

The Imitation Game

Vixen must be smart. She uses words like "whilst" just like CouldsonUK does.

I agree Vixen is doing a 'half-CoulsdonUK", in the sense of being coy coupled with appeals to authority, but I don't think Vixen is CoulsdonUK.

Coulsdon kept a lid on it for what, 7years? Only at the very end did he come out to face the board, got overwhelmed in minutes before retreating, until the missus busted him for keyboarding into the we hours, or such was the claim.

Vixen is way too prolific out of the gate, and very quickly slid form polite and chirpy, into discredited falsehoods. With an indifference to facts, logic or discussion.

Sort of brings to mind a recent movie I quite enjoyed, called "The Imitation Game", on the story of Alan Turing, and the British effort to break the German code machine "enigma".

One of Turing's tests for intelligence was, can you tell if the person you're speaking with is a real person, or a machine? Can the conversation partner, imitate a person? Are they real?

I don't see intelligence here, but I do see narcissism, and an inability to see how others see you. I see a transgressive personality on display, one who's found a welcoming environment in which to express their peculiar pathology.

Sorry to say all this, I'm always rooting for the psychos to be normal, but I'll admit when I'm wrong, or been duped.

 

[Grinder]

Given that a multiplicity of decisions, based on more than one theory and motive, were issued in this case, for a certain breed of online contributor, this stance is a convenient one. In fact, this line of thinking is eerily reminiscent of the one maddeningly espoused by a longtime poster, who claimed to hail from Coulsdon, UK, in these very threads. Occupying some space between a faithful interlocutor and a gadfly, this poster has coincidentally *completely vanished* since Knox and Sollecito were declared innocent.

In a case like this, it is important to choose sides. Otherwise, on any given day, one can be expected to wake up loving Massei and hating Pratillo Hellmann, or hating Nencini and loving Marasca. And, on a board like this, it then becomes incumbent to support with citations why one has chosen their side. After seven-plus years of often preposterous internet wars, it is a prerequisite to establishing some indication of a combination of seriousness and good faith.

I contacted him (Couldson) he was cordial and said he'd be back after the report comes out.

 

[Grinder]

The prosecution aren't going to bring it up. Their raison d'etre[/I] is to secure a conviction.

The defense is hardly going to bring it up either, as pleading pychopathy would have the effect of being labelled "Criminal Borderline Personality Disorder" and incarcerated in a secure unit for the rest of their lives (cf Charles Bronson).

Their raison d'etre is to find justice, the truth and the American Italian way.

 

[RWVBWL]

"I didn't see Amanda and Raffaele"

LJ, you basically gave her the answer to my question to her - which was do you Vixen know where Curatolo went after he belatedly had his memory influenced by a persistent local journalist. The answer is: Curatolo went to Capanne Prison.

In other words, once he became useful to the prosecution, the prosecution had him picked up on a 5 year old drug charge and imprisoned so they could control him and keep him away from neutral journalists or defense attorneys who would want to talk with Curatolo in plain air.

Imagine what Curatolo's value to Mignini would have been if he were allowed to continue to sit on his park bench and a reporter were to sit down beside him, share a bottle, and chat with a tape recorder running. I suggest a recording might have shown that eagle-eyed Curatolo talked gibberish about many things, revealing his general disorientation about events. He might have even repudiated having seen the defendants at any time. Mignini couldn't allow that to happen to his crack witness So, 5 years after engaging in a drug transaction heroin-addict Curatolo was picked up and put in the freezer. Never to speak again freely to a passing journalist. Or defense attorney.

Greetings,
Here's an interesting read from 1 journalist,
who met up with Antonio ("the tramp", as PM Mignini called him in court, I seem to recall) Curatolo,
nearly a year before Amanda + Raff's 1st Trial even started.

Sfarzo, the journalist,
did not even share a bottle with Antonio,
yet when he spoke with Frank,
he told him this:

Friday, April 18, 2008
TOTO WITNESS
Exclusive - The "super testimone" of the case Meredith Kercher has a name and speaks: "I didn't see Amanda and Raffaele"
Last night on Porta a Porta, we saw Bruno Vespa and the triumphant director of Giornale dell'Umbria presenting on exclusive the "super witness"--from behind and completely covered.
Of course, the super witness is "afraid for his life". Indeed the CIA may execute him on behalf of Amanda Knox, the American girl he accuses. The pugliese mafia might also move in, to protect their regional boy. Not to mention the secret service of Ivory Coast and, who knows, maybe even the Sismi and the KGB.
The super witness was interviewed in a very elegant house, a bit old-fashioned, as is appropriate for the man of prestige he must be, a professor of the university or something like that.

Today, I just happened to meet the super witness during his working hours.
He was searching in a dumpster and he found a lot of interesting things, lots of almost-new shoes and clothes and even 20,000 lire. Yes, 20,000 lire, even 8 years after they went out of circulation! His reaction was "Look, can you believe what people throw away?!"

Curatolo Antonio, aka Toto, the "super witness" in the Meredith Kercher case, lives like this. He's not a teacher or a member of the liberal professions, as they tried to present him. His roof is the sky and his salary is--when he gets lucky--a few unusable banknotes. The police says they tried everything with him, but there has been nothing to do, he keeps leaving in the street and dealing with pushers, they don't even arrest him anymore.

Toto found also a huge blanket, which was very heavy because it was wet. He couldn't carry it by himself, so I carried it for him to his favorite bench. His way of thanking me was to call the director of Corriere dell'Umbria and the police to have me arrested for asking him what he really saw that night.

The director of Giornale dell'Umbria was too busy to take my three calls today. But for Toto, he is immediately available and tells him not to move, he'll be there straight away. Of course, Toto is somebody.

Sorry Toto, if I made fun of you before. I was just kidding. Who knows, maybe you are the perfect witness.
You showed me you have the quick reflexes to cover your face; you move fast around the cottage, even when carrying all your bags. Your brain works much better than mine and maybe you have got the truth.
Now I'm busy. Get me arrested some other time.
By the way, about the facts, what Antonio Curatolo told me is that that night he didn't see anyone at the basketball court. But what counts is what he told the police and to the police he said to have seen Amanda and Raffaele out of the cottage. After all he's an expert witness. Already in 2001 he testified against a a Tunisian (who allegely killed his girl by the swimming pool) and he got him condemned.

For his tv appearance it seems that Toto has been tricked: he didn't know his interview as anonymous, supercovered and superprotected "supertestimone" was for Porta a Porta, otherwise, he says, he would have never released it. As for Bruno Vespa, indeed, his judgment is clear: "I can't stand him".


Link:
http://web.archive.org/web/20101015182717/http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2008_04_01_archive.html

* * *

Gotta say that I luv the local pix of "super witness" Curatolo from that particular blog post,
especially the Conad convenience store shopping bags on "Toto"s park bench.
I wonder if they were from "super witness" Marco Quintavalle's Conad store...
RW

 

[Bill Williams]

I agree Vixen is doing a 'half-CoulsdonUK", in the sense of being coy coupled with appeals to authority, but I don't think Vixen is CoulsdonUK.

Coulsdon kept a lid on it for what, 7years? Only at the very end did he come out to face the board, got overwhelmed in minutes before retreating, until the missus busted him for keyboarding into the we hours, or such was the claim.
Vixen is way too prolific out of the gate, and very quickly slid form polite and chirpy, into discredited falsehoods. With an indifference to facts, logic or discussion.

Sort of brings to mind a recent movie I quite enjoyed, called "The Imitation Game", on the story of Alan Turing, and the British effort to break the German code machine "enigma".

One of Turing's tests for intelligence was, can you tell if the person you're speaking with is a real person, or a machine? Can the conversation partner, imitate a person? Are they real?

I don't see intelligence here, but I do see narcissism, and an inability to see how others see you. I see a transgressive personality on display, one who's found a welcoming environment in which to express their peculiar pathology.

Sorry to say all this, I'm always rooting for the psychos to be normal, but I'll admit when I'm wrong, or been duped.

If I have to explain CoulsdonUK's absence by either conspiracy, or that the missus busted him after hours pounding away righteously at the keyboard....

I will take the latter, every day of the week and twice on Sunday. He and I have the same missus!

 

[Numbers]

Readers of this thread may find interesting a recent ECHR judgment:



Relevance: The police claimed they took the lawyer, Francois, into custody because of his alleged behavior in the police station itself. The police subjected Francois to certain procedures (a full-body search and an alcohol test) that were arbitrary in relation to his actual behavior. Taking Francois into custody was itself arbitrary. The reasoning of the police was arbitrary. The actions of the police in this instance can be seen as a retaliation against Francois for his legitimate attempt to represent his client's interests.

While not exact parallels, in the AK/RS case there are some similarities. It can be argued (not all posters here may agree) that the custodial (and coercive) interrogations of Knox and Sollecito on Nov. 5/6, 2007 were arbitrary (the police suspicions of them at that point were not reasonable to an objective person, or were in fact on some level arbitrary in that the alleged "suspects" were known to be probably innocent but were "suspects of convenience"). Criminal charges of calunnia against AK in regards to statements she made concerning: 1) Patrick Lumumba and 2) the police who interrogated her were in fact arbitrary measures to protect the police from investigation of their misconduct during the interrogation and were the continuation of violations of AK's rights under Italian law, including the Convention. (And the Convention and its interpretation under ECHR case-law is the supreme human rights law of Italy and other Council of Europe States.)

Just some further detail for clarification.

The "behavior" which triggered the lawyer being taken into custody, strip-searched, and given a blood alcohol test originated with his asking that his client be given a forensic medical exam. The lawyer apparently believed there were physical indications that his client had been subjected to physical abuse (that is, a beating) by the police.


ETA: Google translate of ECHR judgment - paragraph 5 of background facts:

5. On the night of 31 December 2002 to 1 January 2003 the applicant, a lawyer practicing in Paris, was called to the police station of Aulnay-sous-Bois to assist a minor placed in custody. After the meeting with his client, who claimed to have been the victim of police violence and that had lesions on the face, the applicant wrote written comments on its paper letterhead and asked for a medical examination of his client minor.

 

[carbonjam72]

The women are smarter (but only the real ones)

If I have to explain CoulsdonUK's absence by either conspiracy, or that the missus busted him after hours pounding away righteously at the keyboard....

I will take the latter, every day of the week and twice on Sunday. He and I have the same missus!

Well Bill, I must say the image of you trying your better half's patience, is far preferable to the image of you in your Mother's basement, yelling for coffee refills whilst* pounding on the keyboard amidst a pile of discarded cheeseburger wrappings - an image which you yourself have been promulgating of late. I'm quite relieved actually. The women are indeed, usually smarter.

I think CoulsdonUK's absence, as in waiting for the final motivation report is consistent with that poster's positions, as far as I know (but I've only been around about a year or so). At which time, CoulsdonUK will, I predict, post something to the effect that the court's findings must be respected, while slyly implying that a legal finding is not necessarily the equivalence of the truth.

But in the universe of guilters, Coulsdon's type of grudging acceptance of a final verdict, if not the actual truth of the matter, is probably about the most that can be hoped for, short of an ecstatic epiphany.

Also, does anyone know the findings of the lesser charges? 'Did not commit the crime'? Or, 'the crime does not exist'?

 

[Grinder]

Couldson main concern was always the Kerchers and not in a phony PMF way. I must be forgetting some of his remarks but I found him to be generally straightforward unlike others that argued about barking dogs etc.

I would welcome him back even to only discuss the impacts to the Kerchers.

 

[Strozzi]

Greetings,
Here's an interesting read from 1 journalist,
who met up with Antonio ("the tramp", as PM Mignini called him in court, I seem to recall) Curatolo,
nearly a year before Amanda + Raff's 1st Trial even started.

Sfarzo, the journalist,
did not even share a bottle with Antonio,
yet when he spoke with Frank,
he told him this:

Friday, April 18, 2008
TOTO WITNESS
Exclusive - The "super testimone" of the case Meredith Kercher has a name and speaks: "I didn't see Amanda and Raffaele"
Last night on Porta a Porta, we saw Bruno Vespa and the triumphant director of Giornale dell'Umbria presenting on exclusive the "super witness"--from behind and completely covered.
Of course, the super witness is "afraid for his life". Indeed the CIA may execute him on behalf of Amanda Knox, the American girl he accuses. The pugliese mafia might also move in, to protect their regional boy. Not to mention the secret service of Ivory Coast and, who knows, maybe even the Sismi and the KGB.
The super witness was interviewed in a very elegant house, a bit old-fashioned, as is appropriate for the man of prestige he must be, a professor of the university or something like that.

Today, I just happened to meet the super witness during his working hours.
He was searching in a dumpster and he found a lot of interesting things, lots of almost-new shoes and clothes and even 20,000 lire. Yes, 20,000 lire, even 8 years after they went out of circulation! His reaction was "Look, can you believe what people throw away?!"

Curatolo Antonio, aka Toto, the "super witness" in the Meredith Kercher case, lives like this. He's not a teacher or a member of the liberal professions, as they tried to present him. His roof is the sky and his salary is--when he gets lucky--a few unusable banknotes. The police says they tried everything with him, but there has been nothing to do, he keeps leaving in the street and dealing with pushers, they don't even arrest him anymore.

Toto found also a huge blanket, which was very heavy because it was wet. He couldn't carry it by himself, so I carried it for him to his favorite bench. His way of thanking me was to call the director of Corriere dell'Umbria and the police to have me arrested for asking him what he really saw that night.

The director of Giornale dell'Umbria was too busy to take my three calls today. But for Toto, he is immediately available and tells him not to move, he'll be there straight away. Of course, Toto is somebody.

Sorry Toto, if I made fun of you before. I was just kidding. Who knows, maybe you are the perfect witness.
You showed me you have the quick reflexes to cover your face; you move fast around the cottage, even when carrying all your bags. Your brain works much better than mine and maybe you have got the truth.
Now I'm busy. Get me arrested some other time.
By the way, about the facts, what Antonio Curatolo told me is that that night he didn't see anyone at the basketball court. But what counts is what he told the police and to the police he said to have seen Amanda and Raffaele out of the cottage. After all he's an expert witness. Already in 2001 he testified against a a Tunisian (who allegely killed his girl by the swimming pool) and he got him condemned.

For his tv appearance it seems that Toto has been tricked: he didn't know his interview as anonymous, supercovered and superprotected "supertestimone" was for Porta a Porta, otherwise, he says, he would have never released it. As for Bruno Vespa, indeed, his judgment is clear: "I can't stand him".


Link:
http://web.archive.org/web/20101015182717/http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2008_04_01_archive.html

* * *

Gotta say that I luv the local pix of "super witness" Curatolo from that particular blog post,
especially the Conad convenience store shopping bags on "Toto"s park bench.
I wonder if they were from "super witness" Marco Quintavalle's Conad store...
RW

Curatolo, you were used. R.I.P.

Antonio Curatolo was taken into police custody when he became useful to Mignini almost a year after the murder when Coratolo under prompting suddenly recollected having seen Knox and Soloecito loitering for 2 hours at the park on a cold night while Holloween revelers boarded buses to the discos. By taking him into custudy, the police prevented Curatolo from talking to journalists and others and revealing how he was cultivated to remember something. It also prevented others from observing his actual cognitive state. Curatolo, while being held in polce custody, testified against Knox and Sollecito in the Masei trial. He was subsequently convicted on an old drug charge and died in Capanne Prison in 2012. He was 55 at the time of his death.

 

[acbytesla]

Couldson main concern was always the Kerchers and not in a phony PMF way. I must be forgetting some of his remarks but I found him to be generally straightforward unlike others that argued about barking dogs etc.

I would welcome him back even to only discuss the impacts to the Kerchers.

IIRC I think you are right about Coulsdon's. HE/SHE did seem genuinely concerned about the Kerchers. He/She always seem to believe in the two innocents guilt, but always insisted that she would respect the court's decision. Coulsdon always sounded a lot like a guilter yet argued that she hadn't made up her mind. She insisted on walking down the middle of the road for 7 years.

 

[Strozzi]

IIRC I think you are right about Coulsdon's. HE/SHE did seem genuinely concerned about the Kerchers. He/She always seem to believe in the two innocents guilt, but always insisted that she would respect the court's decision. Coulsdon always sounded a lot like a guilter yet argued that she hadn't made up her mind. She insisted on walking down the middle of the road for 7 years.

It is good to keep an open mind. Did Couldson ever express concern that the 2 defendants were denied legal representation during the nighttime interrogations or that evidence which they might use in their defense was withheld, tampered with, destroyed, or concealed by the police and prosecution?