Continuation Part 14: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Vixen]

They called the police. So?

Evidence shows they called the police after they had already arrived.

Why do that?

 

[Samson]

Can someone please tell me why "psychopathology" is even being discussed in this case?

I know.... it's because Giuliano Mignini ventured into that territory when his "Satanic rite" theory, and then his "sex-hgame gone wrong" theory collapsed in court.

Vixen says it is the courts' job to listen to listen to what the experts have to say on these subjects. Ok: which expert at trial talked about psychopaths, sociopaths, or psychopathology?

That's right: none. No less than Machiavelli summarized for us Mignini's 2009 closing argument, which as far as I know was the first mention of it; the first mention that there might be something psychologically-off about Amanda Knox, some sort of insane jealousy against Meredith.

Did Mignini argue this because an expert, at trial, gave evidence? Was there a prison psychological-evaluation? I mean, they had her in prison for two years up until Mignini's closing....

What? You mean there was none? That's right.... there was none.

Yet posters can come on to obscure webservices like ISF, a full month after AK's and RS's complete exoneration and still talk about it as if it has anything to do with anything.

Why is it even being talked about at this point? For heaven's sake, half the PMF sites are now behind an iron curtain.....

If we all agree to sign off on the wisdom of authority, the score is

Rudy Guede murdered Meredith Kercher on his own.
Rudy Guede accused Amanda and Raffaele of committing this crime, claimed he tried to save her, and was expecting them to spend 25 to 28 years in jail for a crime he committed and knows they did not.

I am not sure what the clinical diagnosis is, but Vixen seems to have insight she might share, (if authority has got it right)

 

[acbytesla]

Well no, she was like Charles Manson: she directed it all.

Wrong, nothing could be further from the truth. Clyde Barrow, Ralph Fults and several other members of the gang had committed hundreds of robberies even before Clyde Barrow met Bonnie Parker. There is nothing that suggests that Bonnie was anything more than a tag along smitten with Clyde...who clearly ran the gang.

 

[LondonJohn]

Vixen, this is a discussion board where we can critically discuss the case. You are allowed to have an opinion.

Yes. It seems utterly bizarre to state that only the courts can have all the required information to reach a properly-reasoned decision (to which the associated logic suggests that a) only the courts can hope to make the right decision, b) anyone who is not the court cannot, by definition, be confident of making the right decision, and c) the court's decision is essentially unchallengeable by anyone outside the court).

That sort of thinking not only renders any kind of discussion here (or elsewhere) utterly pointless and valueless (as well as most journalism, for that matter), but it also flies in the face of the kind of justice that is the aim of any modern democracy (yes, even Italy), where justice should be transparent, open, accountable and understandable to all reasonable people.

Speaking of Curatolo, here is a question for you -

Are you aware that as soon as the neighborhood journalist who had, for the better part of a year, repeatedly encouraged both Quintaville and Curatolo to remember something juicy about Knox succeeded in inducing Curatolo to recall seeing Knox and Sollecito loiter at the railing for two hours on the cold Holloween night, Curatolo disappeared from public view? Do you know where he went? Are you familiar with that?

I wonder if Vixen is also aware that Curatolo was a heroin addict and dealer, who knew that he had been caught red-handed dealing by the police in a sting operation some years before 2007 - but had inexplicably never been charged or tried. Inexplicable, that is, unless one supposes that the police (and/or PM) and Curatolo had an "interesting" discussion at some point, where the police told him they had the goods on him to send him to prison for a long time, but that perhaps they might "forget" to charge or try him if he were to become of some *value* to the police.............

 

[Vixen]

Vixen, this is a discussion board where we can critically discuss the case. You are allowed to have an opinion.

Speaking of Curatolo, here is a question for you -

Are you aware that as soon as the neighborhood journalist who had, for the better part of a year, repeatedly encouraged both Quintavale and Curatolo to remember something juicy about Knox succeeded in inducing Curatolo to recall seeing Knox and Sollecito loiter at the railing for two hours on the cold (Holloween) night, Curatolo disappeared from public view? Do you know where he went? Are you familiar with that?

No. Where did he go?

You are aware it was a journalist who exposed Nixon re Watergate?

Many journalists do good detective work.

 

[LondonJohn]

Evidence shows they called the police after they had already arrived.

Why do that?

You're on VERY shaky ground now, fact-wise.

Where did you learn (or where did you think you learned......) that "evidence shows" that Knox and Sollecito called the police (Carabinieri) after they (the Postal Police) had already arrived?

 

[Vixen]

Wrong, nothing could be further from the truth. Clyde Barrow, Ralph Fults and several other members of the gang had committed hundreds of robberies even before Clyde Barrow met Bonnie Parker. There is nothing that suggests that Bonnie was anything more than a tag along smitten with Clyde...who clearly ran the gang.

That's not what it said in TRUE DETECTIVE <g>.

PS. DOH! Just realised: that was Ma Baker. But it doesn't change the point I was making.

 

[acbytesla]

Evidence shows they called the police after they had already arrived.

Why do that?

Actually, the evidence PROVES that they called the police BEFORE the police arrived. This is what happens when you get your information from the tabloids or the guilter websites.

 

[LondonJohn]

Kate Manley DAILY MIRROR: Raf told her they were at a party on the murder night.

Amanda said she was with Raf when thingy called, but phone reports show she was out.

Said they had dinner before 8:42, after which the pipes burst, and then changed dinner time to eleven pm.

Amanda said she was home with Raf all evening through to 10:00am next day.

Raf himself called a press conference during the current appeal to say he couldn't account for Amanda's wherabouts between 8:45 and 1:00am.

In her email home, Amanda claimed she was frantically worried about Mez to the extent of banging on her door and climbing on a window ledge to look in. Battistelli reported otherwise. Amanda claimed to him, Mez' door was always "closed" implying there was nothing to worry about (when the cops appeared).

etc.

This is a VERY interesting set of points. Very interesting indeed. It all keeps becoming clearer

 

[acbytesla]

That's not what it said in TRUE DETECTIVE <g>.

Find something else to read.

 

[Vixen]

You're on VERY shaky ground now, fact-wise.

Where did you learn (or where did you think you learned......) that "evidence shows" that Knox and Sollecito called the police (Carabinieri) after they (the Postal Police) had already arrived?

IIRC I read it in Nencini.

 

[Vixen]

Yes. It seems utterly bizarre to state that only the courts can have all the required information to reach a properly-reasoned decision (to which the associated logic suggests that a) only the courts can hope to make the right decision, b) anyone who is not the court cannot, by definition, be confident of making the right decision, and c) the court's decision is essentially unchallengeable by anyone outside the court).

That sort of thinking not only renders any kind of discussion here (or elsewhere) utterly pointless and valueless (as well as most journalism, for that matter), but it also flies in the face of the kind of justice that is the aim of any modern democracy (yes, even Italy), where justice should be transparent, open, accountable and understandable to all reasonable people.






I wonder if Vixen is also aware that Curatolo was a heroin addict and dealer, who knew that he had been caught red-handed dealing by the police in a sting operation some years before 2007 - but had inexplicably never been charged or tried. Inexplicable, that is, unless one supposes that the police (and/or PM) and Curatolo had an "interesting" discussion at some point, where the police told him they had the goods on him to send him to prison for a long time, but that perhaps they might "forget" to charge or try him if he were to become of some *value* to the police.............

Now who's been watching too much television?

 

[Vixen]

Find something else to read.

Soz, I was thinking of Ma Baker.

 

[LondonJohn]

Now who's been watching too much television?

Not me.

But let's hear your explanation of why the police would set up a drug-dealing sting, using a wired stooge to by heroin from Curatolo (giving them cast-iron evidence that Curatolo was dealing), then "forget" to bring charges for several whole years (within which the Kercher murder, followed by Curatolo's *interesting* witness testimony in two trials, took place), then actually bring those charges - and ultimately convict and imprison Curatolo - all those years later?

Go on - have a crack at explaining it

 

[Kaosium]

Is it not the prosecutor's job to build up a prosecutor's case. After all, Amanda & Raf were at the scene of the crime and kept changing their stories.

No, they didn't keep changing their stories. Their stories were all compatible outside that night of the 5th/6th when the police changed them, which they then changed back once they got out of their clutches. This is especially important because what they changed to was not compatible with each other or the actual evidence which corroborates the original story. Those statements have (from Raffaele's reflected in Matteini) Raffaele and Amanda parting at the town center at 8:30-9 PM with Raffaele going home and Amanda to Le Chic, and (from Amanda's statements) Amanda leaving Raffaele's as a result of Patrick's text. The computer records and Joanna Popovic disprove the statements signed that night but are compatible with their original and true stories.

Raffaele went in there stoned, he left that part out of his book. They put the hammer down, they refused to let him talk to his father or a lawyer--or for that matter even let him look at a calender--and cowed him into believing they must be right and he remembered wrong. Nothing in Raffaele's statement is incriminating or even something he made up, it's a mish-mash of what he did October 31st and November 1st when they refused to accept his original account that--as it turned out--has hard evidence supporting it as well as an eyewitness. From Raffaele's perspective nothing all that memorable happened those two nights and four or five days later couldn't recall with certainty what happened which night. What was the "smoked" Raffaele supposed to do when they insisted he didn't have it right and wouldn't let him leave? Argue with them?

Amanda gave them the same account over and over again until sometime in the middle of the night with little sleep they convinced her she must have 'blocked' her 'real' memories due to trauma and gave them that confused gibberish I linked above. Later in the day on the 6th, after she's had a chance to sleep, it seemed more 'unreal, like a dream' and she writes that note. By the seventh (go to near the bottom) she's realized none of that ever happened and recants it completely.

The ironic thing is that the police had reason to be suspicious of Amanda and Patrick because of coincidences and mistakes on their part (thinking that window required "spiderman" to climb into was a big one) but it wasn't because of stories changing, that was something that happened under their watch when they refused both Amanda and Raffaele the protections every civilized country offers to suspects because of this very phenomena.

 

[Bill Williams]

Evidence shows they called the police after they had already arrived.

Why do that?

Ah, er, wrong again, Vixen.

Even the convicting judge, Massei, says that the Postal Police arrived, "just before 1 pm," while fixing the time of Raffaele's first call to 1-1-2 just minustes before this.

Where are you getting your version of factoid evidence?

 

[Bill Williams]

IIRC I read it in Nencini.

Nencini has been annuled.

Why are you reading Nencini and accepting ANY evidence from it?

 

[LondonJohn]

IIRC I read it in Nencini.

Nencini was factually mistaken. I suspect the SC will refute this issue in its report. The CCTV evidence is solid gold proof that the Postal Police actually didn't arrive until some time between (IIRC) 12.54pm and 12.57pm - and certainly after Sollecito's call to the Carabinieri.

The Postal Police were either honestly mistaken or lying when they said they arrived at around 12.35pm. Whether they were doing something they *shouldn't* have been doing between leaving the station and greeting Knox/Sollecito, or whether they simply got lost, we might never know. But it's provable that they didn't arrive until after Sollecito had called the Carabinieri.

Incidentally, in addition to the irrefutable CCTV evidence, there's also the corroborating factor that the account of what actually happened between the arrival of the Postal Police and the breaking down of Kercher's door - which is agreed by all parties, including Romanelli et al - simply cannot fit a time span of 30 minutes, which would be necessary if the Postals had indeed arrived at 12.35 (given that it's agreed that Kercher's door was broken down at around 1.05pm-1.10pm). Everything that was said and done in that period fits with a timespan of 10-15 minutes maximum.

 

[Bill Williams]

Kate Manley DAILY MIRROR: Raf told her they were at a party on the murder night.

Raf could not remember which night was the murder night, as he explained in his book. At interrogation - when it occurred to him he was being accused of something - he asked to consult a calendar to sort it out. He was refused.

Amanda said she was with Raf when thingy called, but phone reports show she was out.

Nencini got the cell tower info wrong. Besides, this factoid happened BEFORE Jovavic arrived, and Jovavic said Amanda was at Raffaele's, so what does this "being out" have to do with the crime anyway? Nencini said it showed Amanda's proclivity to lie - but it was Nencini who got it wrong, and besides, his report has been annuled, post March 2015.

Said they had dinner before 8:42, after which the pipes burst, and then changed dinner time to eleven pm.

So?

Amanda said she was home with Raf all evening through to 10:00am next day.

Which she, apparently, was.

Raf himself called a press conference during the current appeal to say he couldn't account for Amanda's wherabouts between 8:45 and 1:00am.

Sigh. No, Raffaele said that the cops had said that that is when Amanda had gone out. And his answer to that claim was, "Even if true, what's that got to do with me?" Search for "separation strategy" on these threads. This claim of yours is a tired-regurgitation of the "Raffaele threw Amanda under a bus" meme.

It is old, and since March 2015, completely irrelevant. (Ask Platonov, former poster here, to explain the space-time continuum to you!)

In her email home, Amanda claimed she was frantically worried about Mez to the extent of banging on her door and climbing on a window ledge to look in. Battistelli reported otherwise. Amanda claimed to him, Mez' door was always "closed" implying there was nothing to worry about (when the cops appeared).

etc.

Battistelli, in a contrast you are aware of, was so concerned about Amanda's words that he did..... nothing and refused to break down the door, because at that moment, he, too, was unconcerned enough.

Vixen - these are all tired, talking points, completely irrelevant after the March 2015 exonerations. These points of your come from the guilter PR-lobby that thought that through sheer repetition they could elevate a factoid into a fact.

 

[Samson]

Nencini has been annuled.

Why are you reading Nencini and accepting ANY evidence from it?

Hellmann went public with disgust after his annulment, I hope Nencini follows suit, but I somehow doubt it.
Does he have the courage of his convictions?