Continuation Part 14: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[xinonix]

Is this thread still going?

 

[Kaosium]

Broadly, because I find his reasoning frustratingly obfuscated, an example is Hellmann's claim that (to paraphrase) there was no crime of staged burglary. Therefore, he reasons, Guede must have committed the burglary and it thus follows he raped and murdered Mez as a result. There were no facts found at the lower court that the "burglary" happened before the murder - in fact, the reverse - and fails to address any facts about Guede moving the body and positioning it.

Why do you think there should be 'facts found' at the Trial of the First Instance that the burglary happened before the murder? Remember this is not a common law court, the trial of the second instance (appeal) is a fact finding court that overrides the trial of the first instance. Again, had Raffaele and Amanda been acquitted by Massei (Trial of the First Instance) they still would have had to face the Trial of the Second Instance (Hellmann) and may have been convicted on the same evidence but interpreted differently.

What Hellmann does is destroy the reasoning of the Massei court in claiming the evidence leads to a suggestion of staging, and that even if it was that wasn't proof that Raffaele and Amanda staged it.

Guede may have done it, but the reasoning needs to be better.

What did you think of the reasoning of the Massei court, especially regarding the breaking of the window? Here it is below, see if you can figure out what he's claiming the evidence suggests.

Indeed, if one supposes that the stone was thrown from the inside with the shutters pulled closed (as they must have been according to statements cited above), but with the casement holding the pane somewhat open, with the inner shutter behind it, then here is a situation analogous to that of throwing the stone from the outside (the rock would hit the window in the same place as if it came from the outside), and under the shock of the large stone, because of the resistance of the inner shutter behind the window-pane (the shield effect as one might say), the pieces of glass would necessarily fall down on the windowsill both inside and outside (considering the casement as having being only slightly open, and thus the smashed pane positioned near to the windowsill). The presence of the shutters pulled inwards, as described by Romanelli, would have prevented the pieces of glass from falling to the ground below, as indeed they did not, but as they surely would have had the stone been thrown from the outside. As for the presence of glass in Romanelli's room, the violence of the blow, the characteristics of the glass (which was rather thin as indicated by Romanelli and Pasquali), the large rock used, and finally the shield effect caused by the inner shutter hanging half-open behind the glass pane (a position of the inner shutter which corresponds to the scratch on it visible in the photos) give an adequate explanation of the distribution of the glass.

It would probably be helpful to go to one of my previous links to the crime scene photos in order to figure out what Massei's theory is here. Note that I doubt Massei is silly enough to believe it happened this way either, what he has to do is try to piece together a scenario suggesting guilt from the evidence the prosecution provided, which will then be reviewed by the judges in the Trial of the Second Instance who will note silly things like this and realize the scenario cannot stand scrutiny.

Again, the Trial of the First Instance is not the final arbiter of the evidence, the Trial of the Second Instance is.

 

[Kauffer]

Could we please agree on using the Italian terms of "calunnia" and "diffamazione" just for the sake of clarity?

What continues on June 9th is a case of calunnia i.e. Amanda Knox accusing the interrogating police officers of commiting a crime (or crimes, who knows AFAIK nobody has seen the charges so far.) while on trial in 2009.

To my knowledge a "querela" for "diffamazione" for things she wrote in her book hasn't even been filed, unless this was done secretly......

Yes we can agree - apologies for my laziness.

Ok, so this probably mostly answers my original query - there is a June 9 date following a known filing for the commencement of proceedings in a criminal calunnia trial, presumably before an investigating judge, the maximum penalty for which is six years imprisonment, but nobody has actually seen the charge sheet and it may not be proceeded with - is that it?

Separately, the purported diffamazione case for WTBH may not even have been filed. And are you saying that the material in WTBH cannot be used in the Calunnia case?

Perhaps you can kindly clarify these points.

Do you know anything about the case against Amanda's parents and anything about developments in the case against Raffaele?

 

[RoseMontague]

Yes we can agree - apologies for my laziness.

Ok, so this probably mostly answers my original query - there is a June 9 date following a known filing for the commencement of proceedings in a criminal calunnia trial, presumably before an investigating judge, the maximum penalty for which is six years imprisonment, but nobody has actually seen the charge sheet and it may not be proceeded with - is that it?

Separately, the purported diffamazione case for WTBH may not even have been filed. And are you saying that the material in WTBH cannot be used in the Calunnia case?

Perhaps you can kindly clarify these points.

Do you know anything about the case against Amanda's parents and anything about developments in the case against Raffaele?

According to Bruce the charges against AK's parents have expired. the one against AK herself is probably close to expiring as well. The other one against RS filed by Migi recently is going to be pretty much DOA, in my opinion.

 

[RoseMontague]

So all those award winning cops probably got a bill from Maresca as well. Except for the ones smart enough not to join in on that one.

 

[carbonjam72]

Broadly, because I find his reasoning frustratingly obfuscated, an example is Hellmann's claim that (to paraphrase) there was no crime of staged burglary. Therefore, he reasons, Guede must have committed the burglary and it thus follows he raped and murdered Mez as a result. There were no facts found at the lower court that the "burglary" happened before the murder - in fact, the reverse - and fails to address any facts about Guede moving the body and positioning it.

Guede may have done it, but the reasoning needs to be better.

IIRC, Hellman pointed out that the defense expert showed a glass fragment in Rudy's shoe prints in Meredith's wet blood, suggesting to Hellman that Rudy stepped in the broken glass before Meredtih bled on the floor.

Seems logical to me, and I've never even been to a Mensa meeting.

 

[Kauffer]

According to Bruce the charges against AK's parents have expired. the one against AK herself is probably close to expiring as well. The other one against RS filed by Migi recently is going to be pretty much DOA, in my opinion.

We kinda want Raffaele to win his case on the merits don't we?

 

[carbonjam72]

According to Bruce the charges against AK's parents have expired. the one against AK herself is probably close to expiring as well. The other one against RS filed by Migi recently is going to be pretty much DOA, in my opinion.

Hey Rose, you know Raf's lawyer is Brizoli (?), the lone defendant in Mignini's Narducci trail case against 20 people from Florence who refused to accept the cancellation of the last remaining charges for statue of limitations? Instead, he insisted on a final verdict of acquittal to clear his name.

I wouldn't count on Raf, Gumbel and Brizzoli simply letting these charges lapse quietly. They have Mignini in cornered now, in a trap of his own making, as I see it. I'll bet they use the case to expose Mignini in all his buffoonish glory.

 

[RoseMontague]

Hey Rose, you know Raf's lawyer is Brizoli (?), the lone defendant in Mignini's Narducci trail case against 20 people from Florence who refused to accept the cancellation of the last remaining charges for statue of limitations? Instead, he insisted on a final verdict of acquittal to clear his name.

I wouldn't count on Raf, Gumbel and Brizzoli simply letting these charges lapse quietly. They have Mignini in cornered now, in a trap of his own making, as I see it. I'll bet they use the case to expose Mignini in all his buffoonish glory.

That would be nice to see. I agree.

 

[Bill Williams]

Bill please to clarify. The ISC can only look at technical legal issue if it is in favor of the kids but can demand another court fond facts as they view them when finding against the kids.

Since Hellmann found them innocent then he must solve the crime to the satisfaction of the ISC.

I do not know the technicalities of ISC, but, for instance, Hellmann identified the issue of multiple attackers as beyond the scope of his court.

All his court was required to decide was AK and/or RS's participation.

I have no idea if Hellmann was required to solve the crime, writ large. But he did say he was not required to solve the crime; although the rider, "to the satisfaction of the ISC," may be what's determinative. Who knows?

Hopefully we'll find out in 62 days.

 

[RoseMontague]

We kinda want Raffaele to win his case on the merits don't we?

I'm kinda eager to see RS take some action of his own. There is this event on Facebook called something like Pajama Party with AK and RS, created by some Italians, IIRC. Over 100k attending and the posts I have seen are clearly defamatory, in my opinion.

 

[Methos]

Yes we can agree - apologies for my laziness.

Ok, so this probably mostly answers my original query - there is a June 9 date following a known filing for the commencement of proceedings in a criminal calunnia trial, presumably before an investigating judge, the maximum penalty for which is six years imprisonment, but nobody has actually seen the charge sheet and it may not be proceeded with - is that it?

Separately, the purported diffamazione case for WTBH may not even have been filed. And are you saying that the material in WTBH cannot be used in the Calunnia case?
Perhaps you can kindly clarify these points.

Do you know anything about the case against Amanda's parents and anything about developments in the case against Raffaele?

As I see it, the statute of limitation for calunnia, tied to the maximum imposable penalty, in this case, is six years, Amanda Knox allegedly committed "calunnia" latest while on the stand on June 12th/13th, 2009 so the statute of limitations IIUC will destroy that case on June 13th, 2015 latest.

The usual suspects have been bragging about defamation charges filed against "Oggi" for the article about "Waiting to Be Heard" but AFAIK there's no newspaper report in Italian or otherwise claiming that a suit against Amanda Knox has been filed.

On the highlighted part: Yes, calunnia requires "reporting to an authority that has the obligation to report" i.e. a testimony to police or to a court of law. Whatever nasty things Amanda Knox might have written in her book, they might be "diffamazione" but since the element "to an authority that has the obligation to report" is missing, they can't be used in the calunnia case.

I'll have to look up the statute of limitations for diffamazione for the case against Amanda Knox's parents but knowledgable people told me that the case has been shelved, for that reason.

When it comes to the case against Raffaele Sollecito and "Honor Bound" the latest information I have is that the next hearing is on April 30th...

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Peter Gill on the putative semen stains

"Q. The knife and bra clasp have been much discussed, but there is this other element which has been completely ignored by prosecutors and by the Court, and that is that there are presumptive traces of semen shown up by the crimescope on the cushion on which Meredith’s body lay. Do you think that examination of this would be crucial under normal circumstances to reveal the identity of the real murderer or murderers?

A. If semen stains have been discovered in the vicinity of the victim’s body, then I am extremely surprised that no efforts have been taken to analyse the material. It doesn’t mean to say that it is associated with the crime event, – it might have been deposited some time previous to the crime, for example – but nevertheless if there is potentially important evidence like that which has been discovered, then it is difficult to understand why it has not been analysed, as it may take us further forward in understanding how this crime was committed."

As with any DNA test and any presumptive test with which I am familiar, one does not get a time stamp, a fact which Dr. Gill notes. Yet the same could be said of any putative semen stain. In this instance one of the putative stains has Rudi's tread pattern, which effectively provides a time stamp.

 

[LondonJohn]

Hey Rose, you know Raf's lawyer is Brizoli (?), the lone defendant in Mignini's Narducci trail case against 20 people from Florence who refused to accept the cancellation of the last remaining charges for statue of limitations? Instead, he insisted on a final verdict of acquittal to clear his name.

I wouldn't count on Raf, Gumbel and Brizzoli simply letting these charges lapse quietly. They have Mignini in cornered now, in a trap of his own making, as I see it. I'll bet they use the case to expose Mignini in all his buffoonish glory.

I don't know. If I were Sollecito (and Gumbel), I think that by far my main motivation would be to get the charges dropped (or lapsed) and thus make sure I have no overhanging legal exposure.

I think that under the circumstances, I wouldn't want to put that overarching aim at risk in order to pursue Mignini (no matter how much I might want to if I were in their position). Mignini is still a powerful man with powerful allies, and all sorts of unforeseeable things might happen.

If I were Sollecito or Gumbel therefore, I think I'd forgo to chance to take on Mignini in court, in return for a certainty of legal closure. Once that had been achieved, I'd certainly consider pursuing Mignini down other avenues (either civil avenues or via a push for a disciplinary investigation (or even a criminal investigation) into Mignini's activities), if there were a good possibility of success.

 

[carbonjam72]

Brizzioli

I don't know. If I were Sollecito (and Gumbel), I think that by far my main motivation would be to get the charges dropped (or lapsed) and thus make sure I have no overhanging legal exposure.

I think that under the circumstances, I wouldn't want to put that overarching aim at risk in order to pursue Mignini (no matter how much I might want to if I were in their position). Mignini is still a powerful man with powerful allies, and all sorts of unforeseeable things might happen.

If I were Sollecito or Gumbel therefore, I think I'd forgo to chance to take on Mignini in court, in return for a certainty of legal closure. Once that had been achieved, I'd certainly consider pursuing Mignini down other avenues (either civil avenues or via a push for a disciplinary investigation (or even a criminal investigation) into Mignini's activities), if there were a good possibility of success.

Brizioli.

I understand your argument, and I'm not disputing the logic, for you or I, maybe. You're suggesting playing a conservative defense. I get it.

Still, Brizioli. Why of all lawyers, would they hire just the one whom Mignini had tormented with absolutely the same exact fraudulent satanic sect hoax charges for over a decade and who emerged with a full acquittal, if they didn't want that kind of passionate emotional commitment to destroy that gent on their team, in this case?

Truth is, for Amanda and Raf to reclaim their rightful position in society, Mignini must be destroyed. There's no other way for the world to know they were wronged, but for Mignini to go down, and it has to happen in a court room in full public view. Justice must be seen to be done.

For all Mignini's victims to be set free, Mignini must be branded a criminal. There's no other way. Its just how these things are done. The wheels of justice turn slowly in Italy. They've waited over a decade for a crack at Mignini. No way their folding early.

Of course, as always, MOO. (What does Bill W think?)

 

[Bill Williams]

Brizioli.

I understand your argument, and I'm not disputing the logic, for you or I, maybe. You're suggesting playing a conservative defense. I get it.

Still, Brizioli. Why of all lawyers, would they hire just the one whom Mignini had tormented with absolutely the same exact fraudulent satanic sect hoax charges for over a decade and who emerged with a full acquittal, if they didn't want that kind of passionate emotional commitment to destroy that gent on their team, in this case?

Truth is, for Amanda and Raf to reclaim their rightful position in society, Mignini must be destroyed. There's no other way for the world to know they were wronged, but for Mignini to go down, and it has to happen in a court room in full public view. Justice must be seen to be done.

For all Mignini's victims to be set free, Mignini must be branded a criminal. There's no other way. Its just how these things are done. The wheels of justice turn slowly in Italy. They've waited over a decade for a crack at Mignini. No way their folding early.

Of course, as always, MOO. (What does Bill W think?)

It's official. I actually DO like Grinder better than you!

 

[Kauffer]

As I see it, the statute of limitation for calunnia, tied to the maximum imposable penalty, in this case, is six years, Amanda Knox allegedly committed "calunnia" latest while on the stand on June 12th/13th, 2009 so the statute of limitations IIUC will destroy that case on June 13th, 2015 latest.

The usual suspects have been bragging about defamation charges filed against "Oggi" for the article about "Waiting to Be Heard" but AFAIK there's no newspaper report in Italian or otherwise claiming that a suit against Amanda Knox has been filed.

On the highlighted part: Yes, calunnia requires "reporting to an authority that has the obligation to report" i.e. a testimony to police or to a court of law. Whatever nasty things Amanda Knox might have written in her book, they might be "diffamazione" but since the element "to an authority that has the obligation to report" is missing, they can't be used in the calunnia case.

I'll have to look up the statute of limitations for diffamazione for the case against Amanda Knox's parents but knowledgable people told me that the case has been shelved, for that reason.

When it comes to the case against Raffaele Sollecito and "Honor Bound" the latest information I have is that the next hearing is on April 30th...

That all makes sense. So good news. And yes of course you must be right about the distinction between testimony and book as different sources for different actions.

Thanks.

 

[xinonix]

This dumbass program strikes again

I just wrote a wonderful post about how AK & RS should go on the show naked and afraid.
Well this stupid program loses it in cyberspace and tells me hey xinonix you didn't login, so I log in again and by this time most of my post is gone.
Did this happen because the retard who created this program made a mistake? maybe, but maybe one of the guilters hacked his way past the firewall and reprogrammed the server so it ****s up on purpose

 

[RWVBWL]

A Date...

No, the semen stain test was rejected. Presumably, because the defense did not raise it at the First Instance. Prof Peter Gill anyway explained that of itself it means nothing, as it could date from any time.

Peter Gill on the putative semen stains

"Q. The knife and bra clasp have been much discussed, but there is this other element which has been completely ignored by prosecutors and by the Court, and that is that there are presumptive traces of semen shown up by the crimescope on the cushion on which Meredith’s body lay. Do you think that examination of this would be crucial under normal circumstances to reveal the identity of the real murderer or murderers?

A. If semen stains have been discovered in the vicinity of the victim’s body, then I am extremely surprised that no efforts have been taken to analyse the material. It doesn’t mean to say that it is associated with the crime event, – it might have been deposited some time previous to the crime, for example – but nevertheless if there is potentially important evidence like that which has been discovered, then it is difficult to understand why it has not been analysed, as it may take us further forward in understanding how this crime was committed."

The images above were on her right side of the pillow case from the pillow found lying under Miss Kercher,
I wonder if Vixen thinks this is seminal fluid?

"As with any DNA test and any presumptive test with which I am familiar, one does not get a time stamp, a fact which Dr. Gill notes. Yet the same could be said of any putative semen stain.

In this instance one of the putative stains has Rudi's tread pattern, which effectively provides a time stamp.

Above,
this is the image that Prof. Halkides writes of.
Rudy Guede has fresh, wet probable seminal fluid on the sole of his sneaker
and he stepped on the left side of Miss Kercher's corpse,
leaving a time stamped imprinted clue that he was there.

Wouldn't you agree, Vixen?
RW


PS - Prof. Halkides website:
http://viewfromwilmington.blogspot....d-max=2014-01-01T00:00:00-05:00&max-results=4

 

[xinonix]

So, it looks like her story has had a happy ending.
I would like to conclude this thread by discussing what they should do in the future.
The Problem that Amanda and Raphalele still have is some people will still remember the more interesting parts of this story, like the wild tale of FoxyKnoxy and the sex game gone wrong. However they may have forgotten about the details of the case the prosecution has constructed, and how if you think it makes any sense, you gotta be some kind of a retard.