I have a hard time understanding how Jesus' mindset of Messianic martyrdom would be compatible with him being a fraud. It would be more compatible with a simple case of delusion (eg. a Messiah complex), but the miraculous claims about Jesus by the early Christians, like walking on water, changing water into wine, and the post-resurrection bodily appearances, go beyond simple delusion into the realm of either strong fantasy or reporting actual miracles.
So do you believe there are
"real miracles"?
Would you apply the above illogic to Hindu people's claims for Ganesh's miracles?
Would you accept the same illogic if it was told to you by a Muslim about Mohammad?
Why all the
special pleading for Jesus' sake?
Jesus several times predicted that He would be killed and resurrect, like in Matthew 16:4 (referring to Jonah's 3 days in the whale), John 2:21 (about the Temple of his body being destroyed and rebuilt), Matthew 27:63 (where the Temple authorities remembered Him predicting He would be killed and resurrect), see also Mark 9:31.
How do you know that Jesus in fact did this? How did you verify that assertion?
How do you know the writers of the god-spiels did not just make up the whole thing?
How do you know the writers did not engage in
Cognitive Dissonance Alleviation Casuistry (CDAC) after the execution of Jesus as a common criminal and the shock of knowing that the guy they thought and believed was the messiah did not do a single thing the messiah was supposed to have done and instead of admitting that they have been duped they started justifying for themselves the event by referring to some Tanakh verses that were never meant to be referring to the messiah? (see highlighted stuff in red below)
This kind of thing has been done over and over again with NUMEROUS FALSE MESSIAHS.
Have a look at
this FALSE MESSIAH PHENOMENON that still till today has convinced faithfully believing followers.
Imagine if only this movement managed to dupe a despotic emperor and he subsequently enforced this false religion by the power of ruthless despotic armies all over the empire.
Disillusion
Sabbatai's conversion devastated his followers. Muslims and Christians alike ridiculed his followers after the event. In spite of Sabbatai's apostasy, many of his adherents still clung tenaciously to their belief in him, claiming that his conversion was a part of the Messianic scheme. Prophets such as Ghazzati and Primo, who were interested in maintaining the movement, encouraged such belief. In many communities, the Seventeenth of Tammuz and the Ninth of Av were still observed as feast-days in spite of bans and excommunications by the rabbis.
At times Sabbatai assumed the role of a pious Muslim and reviled Judaism; at others he associated with Jews as one of their own faith. In March, 1668, he announced that he had been filled with the "Holy Spirit" at Passover, and had received a "revelation." He, or one of his followers, published a mystical work claiming Sabbatai was the true Messiah in spite of his conversion, whose goal was to bring thousands of Muslims to Judaism.
....
"By the 1680s, the Dönme had congregated in Salonika, the cosmopolitan and majority-Jewish city in Ottoman Greece. For the next 250 years, they would lead an independent communal life — intermarrying, doing business together, maintaining their own shrines, and handing down their secret traditions." By the 19th century, the Dönmeh had become prominent in the tobacco and textile trades. They established progressive schools and some members became politically active. Some joined the Committee on Union and Progress (CUP), the revolutionary party known as the Young Turks. With independence, in the 1910s, Greece expelled the Muslims from its territory, including the Dönmeh. Most migrated to Turkey, where by mid-century they were becoming highly assimilated.
Modern followers
Although rather little is known about them, various groups called Dönmeh (Turkish for "convert") continue to follow Sabbatai Zevi today, mostly in Turkey.[citation needed] Estimates of the numbers vary. Many sources claim that there are fewer than 100,000 and some of them claim there are several hundred thousand in Turkey.
I believe that the Tanakh does suggest this in several places (Zech 11-13, Dan 9, Is 52-53, Psalm 16 & 22 & 40), and that Jesus understood this. I know that this interpretation today is debated, however, my concern is how Jesus felt about this. Namely, if he did propose that He was the prophesied Messiah, and understood both the prophecies of the Messiah's killing and the great risk he would incur from the Romans by announcing Himself, why would He announce His Messiahship unless he honestly thought he was the Messiah? Not only that, but He went ahead with disrupting the Temple market, openly badmouthing the pharisees, and sticking around for the Romans to arrest Him after he spent some of His three year mission on the run from His detractors like Herod and some of the pharisees.
First... how do you know this about Jesus? How do you know anything Jesus said or did or THOUGHT? Did Jesus write anything, did he leave hand written memoires that we have today?
Second.... even if Jesus did all of the above how would that validate him? How many people throughout history have martyred themselves in the name of their beliefs.... does that confirm their beliefs?
If willingly dying for a belief is a valid justification for the veracity and truthfulness of the belief then every insanity men have ever died for would be a true one.... do you accept Islam is TRUE?
Why all the
special pleading for Jesus' sake?
Further, if Jesus and His disciples really were honest religious teachers, why would so much of their miracles sound like fantasy unless they honestly experienced those things? Are we forced to think instead that all the incredible fantasy aspects, like the virgin birth, walking on water, water into wine, multiple post-resurrection appearances were all fabrications inserted 70 years later into otherwise honest narratives experienced by the disciples?
This is the most amazing
ILLOGIC!!
Here are your claims
- The disciples were honest people
How do you know they were honest? How do you know they were not shysters and bamboozlers? They were hobos going around begging and telling people the world was about to come to an end.... does that inspire confidence?
- They reported fantastical magic
The assumption here is that they reported....how about if they FABRICATED? What if they just made up the whole thing like numerous mountebanks and hucksters and bamboozlers throughout the history of human kind....why do you assume they were not shysters?
- They as honest people would not lie
Even if they were honest people how do you know they were not GULLIBLE FOOLS? How many honest people have been utterly fooled by clever scammers and even by their own auto-delusions and wishful thinking?
- Therefore despite the magic being fantastical it must have been true for such honest men to have believed and reported it
Could have the disciples been fooled (see below)?
Do you apply this illogic to all the claims of all other religions that report fantastical magic?
Why all the
special pleading for Jesus' sake?
And if these miracles were later fabrications, then are we to think that it was simply a huge coincidence that Jesus predicted His resurrection
How do you know Jesus did in fact predict anything?
If the miracles are fabrications couldn't the fabricators also have fabricated Jesus' prediction of them too?
Would you apply this illogic to any other religious claims of similar claptrap?
Why all the
special pleading for Jesus' sake?
and that His body disappeared from the tomb without the involvement of His disciples in the disappearance?
How do you know they did not do exactly that?
How do you know that they were not fooled?
How do you know that some of them did not fool the others?
Maybe Judas conspired with Jesus and planned the whole thing and it was he who whisked the body away and fooled the other 11 disciples?
Maybe the Devil (LUCIFER) burned Jesus' corpse to ashes and he was the LUMINSCENT ANGEL that FOOLED Mary (or was it the many Marys) so as to fool the disciples and the world?
After all, if the disciples did take and hide the body, then this incurs the problem that they were dishonest, not delusional.
And why are you so incapable of accepting that they were not honest?
What if they were just GULLIBLE FOOLS who were bamboozled by Jesus and Judas
or even Lucifer?
Would you accept that Muhammad's disciples were honest people and thus Islam must be true?
Why all the
special pleading for Jesus' sake?
And this leads us back to the original problem of why people who were dishonest and didn't actually think they were Messianic would voluntarily accept martyrdom for it, especially when they believed that the Bible predicted the Messiah would be killed.
Do you know who
Jim Jones was?
He drank the poison along with his followers and disciples.
He martyred himself and his very close disciples did too.
Does that mean that he was truly a holy man?
Why did his disciples who were right there watching all his chicanery and legerdemain also go along with the suicide?
Its hard to understand the mindset of a charlatan who would see the Old Testament prophecies of the Messiah being killed and then accept that harsh martyrdom while all the while believing that he wasn't the Messiah. I don't understand the benefit of taking on that role. I suppose this is a reinforced version of the Lord / Liar / Lunatic / Later fabrication dillemma.
If a person deeply believes in something he might convince himself that lying and deceiving might be a justifiable means to what he perceives would be a good end.
Intentionally lying and using any ploys and subterfuge for the sake of Jesus is an OLD custom.
Jesus (a.k.a. YHWH) started it
- 2 Chronicles 18:22: Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets
- Ezekiel 14:9: And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet
- Ezekiel 20:25-26: Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live; And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through [the fire] all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I [am] the LORD.
Paul continued with it
- 1 Corinthians 9:20-23:To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings."
Eusebius, Emperor Constantine's bishop, was one of the earliest active advocates of it
- How it may be lawful and fitting to use falsehood as a medicine, and for the benefit of those who want to be deceived.
And Martin Luther the founder of Protestantism sanctified it
- What harm would it do, if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church ... a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them.
Martin Luther also explained why reason is not something most theists value
- Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but - more frequently than not - struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God
And the Bible fully supports him
- 1 Corinthians 1:19: For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
- 1 Corinthians 1:21: For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
- 1 Corinthians 1:27: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise;
