Continuation Part 14: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Kauffer]

I think you and Komponisto are referring to the Massei court. Giancarlo Massei was the presiding judge over the first trial in Perugia. Maresca is the Kerchers' lawyer. He is not a judge.

Actually, no. They just sound similar. Marasca was the President of this section of the ISC. Odd isn't it?

 

[Samson]

Rarely one gets to pick up Grinder on a non-evidence based assumption. We do not know that Hellman believed that Knox was guilty of calunnia. All we know is that a majority of the judges, the lay judges voting first from youngest to eldest voted for this. Hellman then had to write the motivation report. I find it easier to believe that the lay judges felt that Knox had to be guilty of something for being a 'wicked woman'. I seem to remember all but one were women, who tend to be more judgmental of other women (not sure if this has any stronger than anecdotal justification). It may even have been a bit of a trade off, it would take only one swing judge to change from guilty to innocent of murder.

It is decreed that it happens this way. Popper said this too, but can anyone confirm with real examples. I simply don't believe it. Italians bend all rules.

 

[Samson]

From Kristeva at dot net

Hi Ergon,

thank you for mentioning what happened yesterday on ORG. It's funny how my recounting of my 2 days at Cassazione and a simple observation turned into a wild gossip. My observation was about Andrea Vogt's impartiality exactly for reason that she greeted Sfarzo in an amicable way. Two kisses on the cheek is normal for people who know each other well here in Italy. (I think the French only kiss once).
While it did surprise me knowing his poor character it simply showed that she is a kind woman who greets everyone no matter what. It is absolutely not true that she didn't want to be associated with me. I was not a journalist there. I was there to represent the Meredith Kercher supporters and our websites. I introduced myself to many journalists and several of them were interested in the work we have done, especially the Wiki. In the same way I introduced myself to Andrea but she already knew about us so there was not much else to talk about. One funny thing that happened was that at one point I was talking to Barbie Nadeau, mostly because we have friends in common with some faculty at the university in Rome where she sometimes lectures and Sfarzo and David Anderson walked by. She was just about to introduce me but I gave her a stare and squeezed her arm gently. She understood that it was not my pleasure at all to know these people and she stopped.
As far as the two forums I have always been "forum shy" but have always read what everyone said on both and have respect for all. I worked with the members of ORG on the translation of Nencini and when the time comes I'll be willing to do the same for Marasca.

I'll come visit here again and thank you all again for the support I received during those two wild days at Cassazione that ended in the most shocking of moments. I am deeply embarrassed for how my country has failed Meredith and her family.

 

[Kauffer]

From Kristeva at dot net

Hi Ergon,

thank you for mentioning what happened yesterday on ORG. It's funny how my recounting of my 2 days at Cassazione and a simple observation turned into a wild gossip. My observation was about Andrea Vogt's impartiality exactly for reason that she greeted Sfarzo in an amicable way. Two kisses on the cheek is normal for people who know each other well here in Italy. (I think the French only kiss once).
While it did surprise me knowing his poor character it simply showed that she is a kind woman who greets everyone no matter what. It is absolutely not true that she didn't want to be associated with me. I was not a journalist there. I was there to represent the Meredith Kercher supporters and our websites. I introduced myself to many journalists and several of them were interested in the work we have done, especially the Wiki. In the same way I introduced myself to Andrea but she already knew about us so there was not much else to talk about. One funny thing that happened was that at one point I was talking to Barbie Nadeau, mostly because we have friends in common with some faculty at the university in Rome where she sometimes lectures and Sfarzo and David Anderson walked by. She was just about to introduce me but I gave her a stare and squeezed her arm gently. She understood that it was not my pleasure at all to know these people and she stopped.
As far as the two forums I have always been "forum shy" but have always read what everyone said on both and have respect for all. I worked with the members of ORG on the translation of Nencini and when the time comes I'll be willing to do the same for Marasca.

I'll come visit here again and thank you all again for the support I received during those two wild days at Cassazione that ended in the most shocking of moments. I am deeply embarrassed for how my country has failed Meredith and her family.

These people are all imploding on themselves. Ganong has started banning, dissension in the ranks etc etc. We should buy .org for the member lists and contact details.

 

[Kauffer]

Have you never called your mother when something was wrong short of somebody being murdered?

Yes, Amanda called her mother. But it was not at Noon before anything happened as the prosecutor claimed. It was at 12:47 after Amanda and Raffaele had returned to the cottage, after calls to Meredith's phones and three calls with Filomena, after discovering the broken window, after pounding on Meredith's door and Raffaele trying to break it down and even succeeding to crack it. Do you thin it matters in such a situation if mother is still asleep?

BTW: it was not 3am Seattle time. http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclo...1&day=2&year=2007&hour=12&min=47&sec=43&p1=48

In hindsight, one could say that compared to discovering your roommates dead body, nothing had happened by 12:47. With that reasoning then a guilty person would know not to be calling their mother until after the body had been discovered.

Impeccably argued!

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Comodi did not represent the call accurately

You guys have me already. I'm just trying to do a retort to his podcast.

Comodi said that the call was at noon, then asked Amanda what time that was in Seattle. Amanda replied that it would be 3 AM. In fact the call was around 12:45, and because of the lack of synchrony with respect to when each city moved from daylight savings time to standard time, the call was near 4:45 Seattle time. Amanda was also mistaken about the number of times she called her mother IIRC. Also, I think that this was about the same time that Raffaele tried to call his sister.

 

[andreajo]

Have you never called your mother when something was wrong short of somebody being murdered?

Yes, Amanda called her mother. But it was not at Noon before anything happened as the prosecutor claimed. It was at 12:47 after Amanda and Raffaele had returned to the cottage, after calls to Meredith's phones and three calls with Filomena, after discovering the broken window, after pounding on Meredith's door and Raffaele trying to break it down and even succeeding to crack it. Do you thin it matters in such a situation if mother is still asleep?

BTW: it was not 3am Seattle time. http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclo...1&day=2&year=2007&hour=12&min=47&sec=43&p1=48

In hindsight, one could say that compared to discovering your roommates dead body, nothing had happened by 12:47. With that reasoning then a guilty person would know not to be calling their mother until after the body had been discovered.

My sister's Skype tag is 'What time is it in Paris?' as her university aged daughters call from Canada for advice at all hours. At that age, there is nothing suspicious about forgetting what time it is in Mom's world in the face of an 'emergency'. When one has not lived on one's own for a long time, lots of things are 'emergencies' and require Mom's advice.

It's not evidence of anything other than a close, normal relationship between Amanda and her mom.

 

[Antony]

We had a recent quote from Hellman in which he said they either had to convict her or accuse the police of lying, implying: (1) he was in on it (2) he behaved unjudicially and (3) if he thought that would be the end of the affair, his judgment was off.

Not only that, but he failed to sanction Stefanoni for her open contempt of court over the releasing the DNA raw data, or the police squad who paid an intimidating visit to Conti and Vecchiotti. The impression is that he wasn't really calling the shots and didn't feel able to go further than he needed to, to get A & R out of prison.

 

[Kauffer]

Not only that, but he failed to sanction Stefanoni for her open contempt of court over the releasing the DNA raw data, or the police squad who paid an intimidating visit to Conti and Vecchiotti. The impression is that he wasn't really calling the shots and didn't feel able to go further than he needed to, to get A & R out of prison.

What was this!?

 

[Antony]

What was this!?

From memory of when it was discussed here:

On the pretext of needing to obtain a copy of C&V's results, the prosecutor sent a gang of Perugia police knocking on the door of their lab in Rome. C&V complained to Hellmann about this needless visit, who informed the prosecutor that the results were available on request from the court files.

 

[Kauffer]

From memory of when it was discussed here:

On the pretext of needing to obtain a copy of C&V's results, the prosecutor sent a gang of Perugia police knocking on the door of their lab in Rome. C&V complained to Hellmann about this needless visit, who informed the prosecutor that the results were available on request from the court files.

Well, well - I didn't know that. Thanks.

 

[Grinder]

I realize the thread has moved on, but I thought acbytesla did a pretty good job of summarizing why libel suits by Knox are unlikely to scare anybody. There might be some weird exceptions where somebody just makes highly defamatory stuff up without any reasonable basis, but for the most part I think this is one of those rare times where London John is wrong at least with regard to US libel law. I thought this before I got to thinking about the possibility that Knox might be classified as a public person with regard to libel laws, but I think her book and her public comments about wrongful convictions have made it likely that with regard to libel laws she would be viewed as a public person. And this seems like it would make the possibility of a successful libel suit in the vast majority of cases impossible.

Dave the tough part for PMF type of posts will little to do with public or private but with damages. Malice from those people will be a cake walk to prove. They have an eight year history of malice.

 

[Bill Williams]

From Kristeva at dot net

Hi Ergon,

thank you for mentioning what happened yesterday on ORG. It's funny how my recounting of my 2 days at Cassazione and a simple observation turned into a wild gossip. My observation was about Andrea Vogt's impartiality exactly for reason that she greeted Sfarzo in an amicable way. Two kisses on the cheek is normal for people who know each other well here in Italy. (I think the French only kiss once).
While it did surprise me knowing his poor character it simply showed that she is a kind woman who greets everyone no matter what. It is absolutely not true that she didn't want to be associated with me. I was not a journalist there. I was there to represent the Meredith Kercher supporters and our websites. I introduced myself to many journalists and several of them were interested in the work we have done, especially the Wiki. In the same way I introduced myself to Andrea but she already knew about us so there was not much else to talk about. One funny thing that happened was that at one point I was talking to Barbie Nadeau, mostly because we have friends in common with some faculty at the university in Rome where she sometimes lectures and Sfarzo and David Anderson walked by. She was just about to introduce me but I gave her a stare and squeezed her arm gently. She understood that it was not my pleasure at all to know these people and she stopped.
As far as the two forums I have always been "forum shy" but have always read what everyone said on both and have respect for all. I worked with the members of ORG on the translation of Nencini and when the time comes I'll be willing to do the same for Marasca.

I'll come visit here again and thank you all again for the support I received during those two wild days at Cassazione that ended in the most shocking of moments. I am deeply embarrassed for how my country has failed Meredith and her family.

Ergon is cornering the market in the "I care about Meredith more than you do," game.

 

[Bill Williams]

As komponisto properly corrected me, it is the Marasca court, not the Bruno court - that was my mistake not yours, Bill. In short we don't know what he would have said if the matter was before the court - as you say, "Who knows". But I would bet he knows what the ECHR is going to say about it.

He has the option of waving the issue of aggravating circumstances away by saying simply that since Amanda did not commit the murder, she cannot be found guilty of any charge in association with it.

She's also not guilty of - transporting the knife - sexual violence (or whatever the precise charge was) - simulating a burglary and theft of Meredith's phones. Some of these will doubtless be extensively reasoned.

But, presumably he will now say that the simulation never happened. But what will he say about multiple attackers? That's the really interesting aspect of the judgement for me. He has to address it.

Hellmann addressed it by saying that it was not up to his court to address it. All that was before his court were the charges against RS and AK.

 

[Kauffer]

Hellmann addressed it by saying that it was not up to his court to address it. All that was before his court were the charges against RS and AK.

The ISC will address the Nencini verdict, but actually Hellmann did address this, by suggesting that the ruling in Guede's trial was not undermined:

"by regarding the single-actor hypothesis as the most reliable"

https://hellmannreport.wordpress.co...the-decision/judgement-concerning-rudy-guede/

 

[Desert Fox]

My sister's Skype tag is 'What time is it in Paris?' as her university aged daughters call from Canada for advice at all hours. At that age, there is nothing suspicious about forgetting what time it is in Mom's world in the face of an 'emergency'. When one has not lived on one's own for a long time, lots of things are 'emergencies' and require Mom's advice.

It's not evidence of anything other than a close, normal relationship between Amanda and her mom.

Especially when said mom, when she realized Amanda was in the deep end, was flying halfway around the world.

 

[carbonjam72]

.
It was fortunate the defense's request to delay the ISC judgment until after the ECHR ruling on the calunnia charge, was not granted.

Cody
.

My guess is that ECHR needs to wait for the cassation motivation report, including the rejection of aggravated calunnia explanation, more as a formality. They need to let Italy's justice system have their full and final say on the matter, so that their response can be comprehensive and all encompassing on the matter, with no residual ambiguity.

Should be an interesting opinion.

My office pool prediction is ECHR finds 8 violations. (Bonus points for correctly naming them! Cause I can't!)).

 

[Kauffer]

My guess is that ECHR needs to wait for the cassation motivation report, including the rejection of aggravated calunnia explanation, more as a formality. They need to let Italy's justice system have their full and final say on the matter, so that their response can be comprehensive and all encompassing on the matter, with no residual ambiguity.

Should be an interesting opinion.

My office pool prediction is ECHR finds 8 violations. (Bonus points for correctly naming them! Cause I can't!)).

There may well be additional ECHR applications to follow.

 

[acbytesla]

Dave the tough part for PMF type of posts will little to do with public or private but with damages. Malice from those people will be a cake walk to prove. They have an eight year history of malice.

First, let me say that I agree mostly with your point on damages. And I agree somewhat on your point about malice. From a Webster dictionary definition I think you are right. But from a legal definition, I'm not so sure.

Malice in this context isn't so much that they despise Amanda, that is clear. I think what the law is asking is did they know at the time that they said something that it was wrong. Unfortunately, it seems as if all the lawyers posting are from abroad and are more familiar with the law outside the US. But I'd love to hear an expert legal opinion on this.

 

[Anode]

From Kristeva at dot net

Hi Ergon,

thank you for mentioning what happened yesterday on ORG. It's funny how my recounting of my 2 days at Cassazione and a simple observation turned into a wild gossip. My observation was about Andrea Vogt's impartiality exactly for reason that she greeted Sfarzo in an amicable way. Two kisses on the cheek is normal for people who know each other well here in Italy. (I think the French only kiss once).
While it did surprise me knowing his poor character it simply showed that she is a kind woman who greets everyone no matter what. It is absolutely not true that she didn't want to be associated with me. I was not a journalist there. I was there to represent the Meredith Kercher supporters and our websites. I introduced myself to many journalists and several of them were interested in the work we have done, especially the Wiki. In the same way I introduced myself to Andrea but she already knew about us so there was not much else to talk about. One funny thing that happened was that at one point I was talking to Barbie Nadeau, mostly because we have friends in common with some faculty at the university in Rome where she sometimes lectures and Sfarzo and David Anderson walked by. She was just about to introduce me but I gave her a stare and squeezed her arm gently. She understood that it was not my pleasure at all to know these people and she stopped.As far as the two forums I have always been "forum shy" but have always read what everyone said on both and have respect for all. I worked with the members of ORG on the translation of Nencini and when the time comes I'll be willing to do the same for Marasca.

I'll come visit here again and thank you all again for the support I received during those two wild days at Cassazione that ended in the most shocking of moments. I am deeply embarrassed for how my country has failed Meredith and her family.

From the hilited quotes:

According to Kristeva, Andrea Vogt and is kind woman to all no matter what their view is, Kristeva is not a kind woman/man.

Kristeva is a sycophant to the pro-guilt journalists.

I agree with Kristeva on the last hilite but not for the same reason as her/him.