• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Merged Freefall is not evidence for Controlled Demolition

If you have a specific argument to make, make it.

Otherwise you are just spamming the thread.
The point is simple:

Truthers hold to a "meme" that the occurrence of free fall proves CD.

That is NOT true.

Occurrence of free fall in the course of a building collapse is a consequence of the collapse mechanism NOT what initiated that mechanism.

CD is one means of initiating a collapse mechanism which it does by causing structural members to fail.

Heat weakening, accidental impact damage and other causes which cause those same structural members to fail would result in the same collapse mechanism AND the same occurrence of free fall.

THEREFORE free fall does not prove CD.

Proof of CD depends on proving that CD was the initiation mechanism. Occurrence of free fall is irrelevant to that proof.
 
The point is simple:

Truthers hold to a "meme" that the occurrence of free fall proves CD.

That is NOT true.

Occurrence of free fall in the course of a building collapse is a consequence of the collapse mechanism NOT what initiated that mechanism.

CD is one means of initiating a collapse mechanism which it does by causing structural members to fail.

Heat weakening, accidental impact damage and other causes which cause those same structural members to fail would result in the same collapse mechanism AND the same occurrence of free fall.

THEREFORE free fall does not prove CD.

Proof of CD depends on proving that CD was the initiation mechanism. Occurrence of free fall is irrelevant to that proof.

But Youtube says free-fall = CD so it must be true :confused:
 
But Youtube says free-fall = CD so it must be true :confused:
Hey - at least recognise that I broke my long standing rule about not feeding trolling. And I responded to the nearest local equivalent of Koko.

BUT the point somehow still needs to be made...

....free fall DOES NOT PROVE CD

And it has been explained why that is true - why free fall does not prove CD - so many times that ANY truther who claims it these days must be deliberately lying.
 
Hey - at least recognise that I broke my long standing rule about not feeding trolling. And I responded to the nearest local equivalent of Koko.
That's alright, I think we're all just here because we are bored or procrastinating on more productive projects. The number of open-minded Truthers appears to approach 0 much faster than the number of active Truthers.
 
That's alright, I think we're all just here because we are bored or procrastinating on more productive projects. The number of open-minded Truthers appears to approach 0 much faster than the number of active Truthers.

We have reached the bottom of the barrel, and the rotten apples are all we have left, with arguments that are old and covered in thick mold.:confused:
 
That's alright, I think we're all just here because we are bored or procrastinating on more productive projects...
Or cannot break the habit. Personally I've been working on my PhD in procrastination but I will have to get round to finishing the dissertation. Maybe I'll start next week....

THEN with a higher degree in procrastination I face the Epimenides Paradox* - it I do finish the course I MUST fail. :boggled:

(* Epimenides said "All Cretans are liars." Epimenides was a Cretan. :confused: )

The number of open-minded Truthers appears to approach 0 much faster than the number of active Truthers.
I only remember one coming new to this Forum in recent years - looked genuine truth seeking in early posts until the point where he got off the fence - and chose the wrong side.

Then we confuse the issue by conflating trolls with truthers - the classes do actually overlap because the posts of a "genuinely obsessed believe the nonsense truther" will actually be trolling. That applies when the truther/troll repeats the nonsense without attempting to correct it and after having been clearly advised that it is false.
 
Last edited:
If I ever manage to cure my boredom problem I'll like;y plan to retire from this subject... when I see the posts of some of the repeat posters I kinda of just...... have no words for them. I've said most things that had to be said, most people say things that render my commentary useless....

I came too late to see the genuine "truthers" and I have debate "burn out" from 7 years of repeated stuff.

The free fall thing as an example.... it's 13 years later. It's been a CT meme from the beginning and I expect it'll continue as long as 9/11 remains with a CT following. Not to mention it's the first of the largest scale CT's to develop in the age of the internet. Kind of like radioactive elements, It's hit its half life... will forever in the future exist but infinitely undergo logarithmic decay
 
....will forever in the future exist but infinitely undergo logarithmic decay
Yes. Many of the "serious discussers" bailed out 2010-11.

All bar one of the regular trolls abandoned THIS ship more than a year back. (BTW that was some achievement - driving out trolls by boring the trolls. Must be a world first in CT discussion forums. :jaw-dropp )

One other forum I've posted on has NOTHING but troll post discussion. Including three dedicated to Poeing Pretence Specialising trolls...
.....plus zero moderating of persona attack/insults. Boring.

And on my historic home forum daring to post the occasional serious comment gets 100% ignored by the mass of debunkers who have become habituated in sub-mediocrity "Whack-a-Mole". As if they cannot be bothered thinking any more.

An li'l ole me would still like to discuss those handful of seriously complicated bits of engineering which nobody want to know about. Look at the responses to several recent efforts. :rolleyes:
 
One other forum I've posted on has NOTHING but troll post discussion. Including three dedicated to Poeing Pretence Specialising trolls........plus zero moderating of persona attack/insults. Boring.

Mr. "K", and the twin "B"s I gather... ;)
I recall Mr. "S" making a brief appearance too...
 
Last edited:
If you have a specific argument to make, make it.

Otherwise you are just spamming the thread.

The specific claim was made years ago. It contends that a period of free fall during the collapse of a structure is definitivly indicative of a controlled demolition. Its a bare contention that has not been backed up by any research.
 
Mr. "K", and the twin "B"s I gather... ;)
I recall Mr. "S" making a brief appearance too...
You are one of I think 6 members here who could decode my comments. ;)



On recount it is 8 so far - edit at 1559 local so 1hr21 after the original post - do your own time zone translations. ;)

(Nice edit window time on this forum :rolleyes: )
 
Last edited:
The specific claim was made years ago. It contends that a period of free fall during the collapse of a structure is definitivly indicative of a controlled demolition. Its a bare contention that has not been backed up by any research.

You're thinking like an engineer. If you think like a detective, it's obvious that freefall implies controlled demolition.

Dave
 
You're thinking like an engineer. If you think like a detective, it's obvious that freefall implies controlled demolition.

Dave
That to many minds is borderline oxy-moronic. :boxedin:

AND
* I are one; :boggled: PLUS
* I have have managed many of them including that minority who - like truthers - get "forests v trees" syndrome and lose their way. :rolleyes:

In "civvy street" the solution is easy. Put them on the routine "fill in the boxes" tasks and tell them "ask me if something unusual comes along". Do that and they usually, most times, other than rare occasions, survive - some even thrive.

BUT NEVER put them in jobs which require on the fly decision making in situations where the issues cannot be pre-known and responses cannot be pre-scripted

Reserve those few initiative taker engineers who can identify coming problems and apply preventative measures for the important stuff where those skills are essential.

And the critical managers skill - the abilty to recognise the types and deploy them in appropriate areas.

But isn't that always the main task of managing? Know your people and where they can best be employed.

And "thinking like an engineer" isn't always an oxymoron. :D
 
Last edited:
I'd forgotten that one. And less than a year ago. As I recall an ex USAF pilot dealt with that bit of nonsense.

Oops that makes my count for Grizzly 7 not 6. :o

Well I don't recall the "B"s but did experience the "K" go round. Several pages of back and forth and he ends up saying exactly what I was saying and claiming I was wrong all along. And that wasnt even in the conspiracy subforum
 
I keep seeing 'freefall' tossed around as evidence for controlled demolition, in threads where it would be off topic to discuss. Well, here is a thread where you can discuss it.
I put it to any proponent of the Controlled Demolition theory for World Trade Center 7 (WTC7), that:

  1. There is no definitively sustained period where the exterior of WTC7 is seen to collapse AT freefall acceleration.
  2. Any period of freefall acceleration is not proof of controlled demolition.

The first item I say because of measurement uncertainty: you cannot say precisely what the acceleration is at any time. Since CD proponents say the building freely falling is evidence that all support is removed, since gravity is constant for this purpose, the acceleration would be constant, which cannot be claimed due to measurement error. For research material, search the femr2 video thread as a start.

The second item I say because force applied from the interior collapse is putting additional load on the exterior, so that when the exterior finally gives under the increased load, the resistance from the collapsing bottom of the exterior is balanced somewhat by the applied load from the interior. With those two forces acting in opposite directions plus the force of gravity, the result can be acceleration at or above that of gravity Graphically:

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=824&pictureid=6030[/qimg]

Ok Truth seekers, time to put your money where your mouth is. Prove to the world that there was significant sustained freefall (right at the acceleration of gravity), or that periods of freefall cannot be explained by a collapse without demolitions.

The problem for me with the collapses is that the investigative team for the Twin Towers have came to the conclusion for the cause but not entirely the effects. They have indicated what was happening to the building like the changes of the exterior columns, but in neither of the Twin Towers did they pinpoint what specific failure caused floors the size of an acre to start falling down. It boils down to a 'first cause' issue. They came to that sort of conclusion with WTC #7, but not for the Twin Towers. Whether they can't or they don't want to is irrelevant to me, what is relevant to me is knowing what caused what I saw and can see in any video I watch of it.
 
Twin Towers Collapse mechanisms - Re-explained
The problem for me with the collapses is that the investigative team for the Twin Towers have came to the conclusion for the cause but not entirely the effects. They have indicated what was happening to the building like the changes of the exterior columns, but in neither of the Twin Towers did they pinpoint what specific failure caused floors the size of an acre to start falling down. It boils down to a 'first cause' issue. They came to that sort of conclusion with WTC #7, but not for the Twin Towers. Whether they can't or they don't want to is irrelevant to me, what is relevant to me is knowing what caused what I saw and can see in any video I watch of it.
Some preliminary comments:
1) First this is strictly Off Topic however it is a related issue since it sets one context in which Free Fall is often raised as an issue. So I will respond with an outline explanation.

(If anyone wants to request a separate thread the heading above will serve as OP title with this post as the new OP);

2) There are two conflated issues (or sets of issues) which are:
(a) Understanding how the collapse occurred as a structural mechanism; AND
(b) Whether or not the official explanations went far enough and/or were accurate. I will focus on the explanation of what actually happened - once we have some shared understanding we can, if we wish, discuss the sufficiency of official findings; AND

3) The issue of CD is often treated as if the collapse options were the dichotomy of "Natural" or "CD" mechanisms. That is not true. The two options are "Natural" alone OR "Natural plus CD assistance". With my usual comments about somewhat inappropriate use of the word "natural".

THEREFORE In explaining there are two choices to legitimately address the CD element - EITHER:
a) Include CD in the discussion from the outset; OR
b) Set it aside until the mechanisms are clear THEN address CD in that context.

I will try this by method "a)" - CD on the table from the start.

THEN 4) I intend to start from the big picture AND known facts - "drilling down" to such details as we need. So in direct contrast with the usual truth movement "argument" which starts from a detail which the proponent cannot explain and some false leaps to the conclusion "I cannot explain it >> THEREFORE CD >> THEREFORE you have to disprove it."

So the aim is "Explain the collapses which actually occurred allowing that CD assistance could be one of the factors."

The collapses of WTC1 and WTC2 were similar so I will treat them as the same until we reach a stage where differentiation is necessary (probably on the issue of "tilt".)

These are the "big picture" facts which we should agree on - let me know if you don't.

The collapse sequence was:
1) Aircraft impact caused some initial damage and started fires;
2) Fires were essentially unfought;
3) A period of increasing damage followed;
4) The "Top Blocks" were seen to move and tilt UNTIL
5) The impact and fire damaged zone(s) could no longer support the Top Block(s);
6) Which dropped/fell
7) In a sequence which progressed to ground level (allowing for the debris heap.

CD is plausible at three points:
A) Anywhere before "3" with pre cutting to weaken the core;
B) Anywhere in the impact and fire zone during 1-2-3 & 4 either by pre-positioned devices OR by devices installed during the event. Both having some difficulties BUT the possibility remains on the table; AND
C) During "7)" - the progression. ( Whether or not CD was applied in "7" it had to be in addition to either of the two previous options - reasons should be or should become obvious.)

Now the two critical collapse mechanisms are:
X) The "initiation" mechanisms of stages 3 and 4; AND
Y) The "progression" mechanisms of stage 7.

The "initiation" mechanism was a cascade failure process. (Despite recent assertions against that on another thread.)

A "cascade failure" involves progressive and sequenced failures where each failure is partially or wholly caused by the preceding failure. Similar to but several orders more complicated than the toppling of a row of dominoes.

The big picture truth is that what held up the Top Block was a collection of columns. Two simple must be true facts follow:
1) The Top Block fell; THEREFORE
2) All the columns had failed.

So the key to understanding the overall mechanism of the initiation stage is understanding why and how columns failed - both singly and in combination.

Whether they failed by "natural" process caused by impact damage and unfought fires OR there was assistance from CD doesn’t change the fact that all columns failed.

And it must have been a "cascade" - whether or not there was any CD in there to help - because:
j) It occurred over time - progressively - not all at once instantaneous; AND
k) With columns failing in sequence (whether by natural or CD processes) the processes of "load redistribution" must happen (also whether natural or CD) AND
..those two are the defining characteristics of a cascade failure - sequenced over time with each step triggering the next.

I'll leave it there for now - having set the groundwork for a more detailed explanation AND having legitimately left the CD option in the discussion.

The main issues we need to address in the next stage of explanation are:
p) How does any single column fail - what are the consequences;
q) How does any column fail given the interactions which must occur with nearby columns (and that is the really complicated bit :o) THEN
r)How do these sequenced column failures progress to involve all of the columns;
s) Initially to the stage where there is not sufficient residual strength in the remaining columns to support the "Top Block at which point;
r) The Top Block falls causing all the remaining "surviving" columns to fail instantly.

Watch for a follow on post. :)
 
Last edited:
Whether they can't or they don't want to is irrelevant to me, what is relevant to me is knowing what caused what I saw and can see in any video I watch of it.

Unfortunately, by the very nature of the situation, we're dealing with incomplete knowledge, so it's inevitably impossible to draw firm conclusions that are rigorously supported by evidence. In the absence of complete knowledge, we'll always be limited to drawing the best inferences we can. "Knowing" is an impossible dream here.

Dave
 
Unfortunately, by the very nature of the situation, we're dealing with incomplete knowledge, so it's inevitably impossible to draw firm conclusions that are rigorously supported by evidence. In the absence of complete knowledge, we'll always be limited to drawing the best inferences we can. "Knowing" is an impossible dream here.

Dave
That is not globally true Dave.

It is true for any specific outcome if we do not know the facts needed to support that outcome.

The need is not for "complete knowledge" - rather knowledge of all the necessary facts needed to support each relevant outcome.

We may know the facts needed for some outcomes whilst not knowing the facts needed to support other outcomes.

The most common error we see (IMO) are claims that "We cannot know "A" because we do not know ALL the facts" Not so. The true situations are:
1) 'We cannot know "A" because we do not know ALL the facts needed to establish "A" '; OR
2) 'We can know "A" because we do know ALL the facts needed to establish "A" ' (provided the known facts do in logic establish "A")

To "prove" "A" we don't need to know the facts which are not relevant to proof of "A".

So - incorporating those aspects into your statement we get:
so it's inevitably impossible to draw firm conclusions that are rigorously supported by evidence when the necessary evidence is not available.
...and stated that way it looks like a tortuous tautology. ;)


Yeah - I know but having thought of it I couldn't resist the pun. :blush:
 
Last edited:

Back
Top Bottom