Continuation Part 14: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Bill Williams]

Now that we're in a post acquittal world, I may have to aspire to CJ73.

Fascinating next steps will be the residual cases, and watching the whole edifice of fraud crashing down on Mingini and Stefanoni, Commodi and Giobbi, and so on. The sad spectacle of watching them all scatter like rats abandoning their sinking ship.

"They" most certainly will pick people to blame for this fiasco, and heap all manner of scorn and legal and other charges onto them to avoid such blame finding its way back onto themselves.

One curious loose end is Maresca. Will he be censured? Or will his involvement finally lead to a separation or scaling back of civil parties involvement in criminal proceedings? He absolutely was an impediment to justice.

The guilters are small potatoes, and the UK as we know courtesy of Edward Snowden, has virtually total access to everything its citizens do on-line. Every guilter who crosses the line and makes threats can rest assured they are known, and their communications are easily accessible to law enforcement.

My guess is our own Mach has probably gotten a communication or phone call cautioning him to cut the crap. I think that's why he's limited himself to correcting people's understanding of the availability of civil trials, rather than spewing any more invective, save those relating to outrageous food provocations.

We may hear more of masons and the mafia, perhaps even tinged with satan, but I think we'll hear no more intimations of guilt concerning Raf and Amanda from Mach.

One of my big learnings in all this is that perhaps the Masons did at one time have undue influence in Italian life. Not as Masons, per se, but as a Skull-and Bones-like, secret society where outsiders to the society were never quite sure what was being discussed behind closed doors. It could have been any "secret" society where its members were otherwise over involved in governance and the opposition party started conspiratorializing things....

It's like the Bonesmen having perceived undue influence in the States - 2004 being a watershed year where both Kerry and Bush, running for president, were Bonesmen. Kerry is now running American foreign policy, and who knows - is this simply a de facto hand-off from the 2001-2009 Bush administration? I suppose we could all get conspiratorial on that one.

As to who is and who is not receiving taps on the shoulder, who really knows. All this jawing on these web-services have had limited effect anyway.

 

[carbonjam72]

One of my big learnings in all this is that perhaps the Masons did at one time have undue influence in Italian life. Not as Masons, per se, but as a Skull-and Bones-like, secret society where outsiders to the society were never quite sure what was being discussed behind closed doors. It could have been any "secret" society where its members were otherwise over involved in governance and the opposition party started conspiratorializing things....

It's like the Bonesmen having perceived undue influence in the States - 2004 being a watershed year where both Kerry and Bush, running for president, were Bonesmen. Kerry is now running American foreign policy, and who knows - is this simply a de facto hand-off from the 2001-2009 Bush administration? I suppose we could all get conspiratorial on that one.

As to who is and who is not receiving taps on the shoulder, who really knows. All this jawing on these web-services have had limited effect anyway.

Uh, no thanks. I also refuse to fear the shriners.

 

[acbytesla]

I'm afraid I disagree on the fundamental point regarding how Stefanoni might have "found" the DNA on those two items.

In my view, this can most reasonably be explained by three factors:

1) Stefanoni was essentially being instructed to find evidence linking Knox and/or Sollecito to the murder of Kercher, and knew that the two items (the knife and the bra clasp) were of critical value in that regard;

2) Stefanoni's lab was shoddily run, and was in no way set up for low template DNA work - meaning contamination was undoubtedly very feasible at low template ranges;

3) The processes of collection, storage and transportation of those two items by the police was egregiously wrong and improper.

I think therefore that there was ample opportunity for both of these items to have become contaminated at low template levels, either during collection/storage/transportation (or during that 46 days among a pile of detritus in Kercher's bedroom in the case of the bra clasp) or within Stefanoni's laboratory. I then think that Stefanoni improperly cranked up the machines - well beyond her remit and understanding, and well beyond the proper operating envelope for those machines - to try to find the evidence she knew she was being asked to find. And I think that she therefore - perhaps almost-inevitably - managed to find low-template contamination on these items.

I suspect that if many of the other more mundane items in this investigation had been subjected to similar over-analysis by Stefanoni, she might well have found low-template contamination on them too - not least because there was very probably low-template contamination occurring everywhere in her laboratory (only she didn't know it, because she had no experience of low-template work, and never normally even looked for DNA in that range).

I can't really argue either way that Stefanoni alone or with another's cooperation actually deliberately planted evidence. However, her actions in this case imo have been totally reprehensible and shady. I have no question that she not only obstructed fair discovery by not providing the defense with the EDFs, she hid the TMB tests and did not mention them on the stand. Did her behavior sink to the level of actually planting evidence? I'm afraid we will never know for sure.

 

[Strozzi]

It is - and thanks to analemma. But it could be helped with a cleaner translation.

At this point I'd observe that Carmelo is very accurate in his assessment of the murder and of the issues surrounding it, but I think he's wrong on his assessment of the criminal slander element. Essentially he appears to be going with Hellmann's view that Knox did criminally slander Lumumba, but for the reason that she wanted to get out of the interrogation (i.e. not because she was trying to deflect attention from herself as the murderer). But I think she did not criminally slander Lumumba, because she doesn't have the required mens rea for that crime: she accused him because the police more-or-less ordered her to accuse him, told him that they had evidence that Lumumba (and she herself) was there, and told him that she had to be repressing memories of that event owing to extreme trauma. As I suspect the ECHR will examine and conclude, if it ever gets that far.

Knox didn't tell the police that Lumumba was the murderer; the police told her.

According to Knox's testimony, Knox's interrogators told her the person on the other end of the texts is the murderer, prompting her surprised and fearful response "It's him. It's him." As they walked her through a fantasy murder scenario, the interrogators asked where she would have been during the murder (in her room, replied Knox) and what she would have heard. Her reply was she would not have heard anything. Pressed why not, she replied "because I would have covered my ears".

This was an interrogator-created false confession, a manipulation of an honest and vulnerable 20 year old American in an Italian police interrogation. Done in a microphone-equipped interrogation room at 1 am, with Inspector Giobbi and Police Chief de Felice in the control room down the hall listening to her screaming. No wonder the recording has never seen the light of day!

 

[Kauffer]

It is - and thanks to analemma. But it could be helped with a cleaner translation.

At this point I'd observe that Carmelo is very accurate in his assessment of the murder and of the issues surrounding it, but I think he's wrong on his assessment of the criminal slander element. Essentially he appears to be going with Hellmann's view that Knox did criminally slander Lumumba, but for the reason that she wanted to get out of the interrogation (i.e. not because she was trying to deflect attention from herself as the murderer). But I think she did not criminally slander Lumumba, because she doesn't have the required mens rea for that crime: she accused him because the police more-or-less ordered her to accuse him, told him that they had evidence that Lumumba (and she herself) was there, and told him that she had to be repressing memories of that event owing to extreme trauma.As I suspect the ECHR will examine and conclude, if it ever gets that far.

Firstly, isn't calunnia effectively considered a strict liability offence? Isn't that one of the problems with it? For Hellmann to have acquitted, given his conclusions about Amanda's motivation, he would have needed to find that the police had acted illegally, which he was not prepared to do, rather than that Amanda did not set out intentionally to commit a crime.

As for the highlighted part (my highlight), I agree, as do many here with your assessment, but I think it really will need to get as far as an ECHR judgement. Amanda will doubtless not withdraw her application, it is res iudicata as far as the judiciary are concerned and I do not see how the Italian government, even if they wanted to, are in a position to provide what Amanda, quite rightly, should demand, which is that the case is re-opened in Italy and conviction and sentence set aside.

 

[JREF2010]

One of my big learnings in all this is that perhaps the Masons did at one time have undue influence in Italian life. Not as Masons, per se, but as a Skull-and Bones-like, secret society where outsiders to the society were never quite sure what was being discussed behind closed doors. It could have been any "secret" society where its members were otherwise over involved in governance and the opposition party started conspiratorializing things....

It's like the Bonesmen having perceived undue influence in the States - 2004 being a watershed year where both Kerry and Bush, running for president, were Bonesmen. Kerry is now running American foreign policy, and who knows - is this simply a de facto hand-off from the 2001-2009 Bush administration? I suppose we could all get conspiratorial on that one.

As to who is and who is not receiving taps on the shoulder, who really knows. All this jawing on these web-services have had limited effect anyway.

I'll guess Migninni will slither away, unphased but it all. As he said in the news long ago, in short version "I juist presented the case...the Judges decided the verdict".
And Migninni wasnt even the prosecutor all the following trials.
And he can blame the bad evidence on the Napoleoni's and Strefonani's.

He might even get a book deal out of his two "big cases" for his retirement.

Giobbi will probably never make a video of himself again...lol

Stefonani seems legally on the thin ice, because she was called out a lot for several things that seemed very dishonest.

Napoleoni, shes already been busted down in Perugia for the divorce/bullying thing and getting caught.

The real question will be what Raffaeles legal team does? imo.
The Kerchers might have better luck with his lawyers than their Maresca, who seems determined to bark up the wrong tree.

 

[platonov]

As its open season on the pro victim sites I thought I’d have a go.

I find the unabashed, obnoxious and consistent anti-semitism on pmf to be much more interesting. They even have a whole subforum devoted to it

My question is why are wrongful conviction advocates so uniformly anti-Semitic?

I didn’t understand this argument at the time but it seems you can predict the future.
There is a holocaust denier posting on one of the PMF sites today although he claims he isn’t one. Maybe he is playing one of those April fool pranks, possibly as he seems to be a noob.

In any case the political axiom seems applicable ‘If you're explaining, you're losing’

This thread has it all - retrocausality & now precognition.

 

[analemma]

Translation

It is - and thanks to analemma. But it could be helped with a cleaner translation.

This was a Google Translate, which produces strangle dialogue, such as;
It translated "Carmelo Lavorino" into "Carmelo work": Huh?????
Amanda acused Patrick because "he was in the state of rat scary cornered"

 

[acbytesla]

As its open season on the pro victim sites I thought I’d have a go.

I didn’t understand this argument at the time but it seems you can predict the future.
There is a holocaust denier posting on one of the PMF sites today although he claims he isn’t one. Maybe he is playing one of those April fool pranks, possibly as he seems to be a noob.

In any case the political axiom seems applicable ‘If you're explaining, you're losing’

This thread has it all - retrocausality & now precognition.

Not that I really understand this post. But why should that be different than your last posts?
You have always talked in riddles and not really cared about clarity.

But allow me to say why it should be open season on the guilt websites now. It's not about revenge, it's about stopping the malicious activity that truly threatens Amanda Knox's quality of life if not even her actual life.

It keeps alive a culture of hate. While I really don't think most of the guilters would actually commit violence against Knox, there are a few that should concern us all, for example; both Grimbal (Grahame Rhodes) and the machine havery both posted actual death threats.

I expect most of the guilters and us will all melt away.. (it's over) Some of the PIP will now focus on others that have been wrongfully convicted ie: Miseri, Faria.
But I expect that most will just go back to their lives. My hope is that both Raffaele and Amanda can now just go on to have full productive and happy lives. But I do worry that in an interest in some kind of justice (although misguided) that the guilters won't allow that to happen.

 

[Bill Williams]

Not that I really understand this post. But why should that be different than your last posts?
You have always talked in riddles and not really cared about clarity.

But allow me to say why it should be open season on the guilt websites now. It's not about revenge, it's about stopping the malicious activity that truly threatens Amanda Knox's quality of life if not even her actual life.

It keeps alive a culture of hate. While I really don't think most of the guilters would actually commit violence against Knox, there are a few that should concern us all, for example; both Grimbal (Grahame Rhodes) and the machine havery both posted actual death threats.

I expect most of the guilters and us will all melt away.. (it's over) Some of the PIP will now focus on others that have been wrongfully convicted ie: Miseri, Faria.
But I expect that most will just go back to their lives. My hope is that both Raffaele and Amanda can now just go on to have full productive and happy lives. But I do worry that in an interest in some kind of justice (although misguided) that the guilters won't allow that to happen.

IIUC Raffaele has drawn a line in the sand. Good on him. Those of us who expressed opinions months' ago for the hate sites to curb their posts lest legal consequences ensue received ridicule in return.

So be it. None of us is above ridicule I suppose. "Open season" is perhaps one way of putting it. "Accountability" is another. Too many people expect no accountability, "I'm entitled to my opinion."

Ok. Now it's time to sit back with a silent thought, "Yeah, how'd that opinion work out?" BTW - there is nothing "pro-victim" about those sites, other than the claim.

 

[Numbers]

Uh, no thanks. I also refuse to fear the shriners.

No Coulrophobia! (Fear of clowns; Shriners are Masons who, in the US, as part of their fundraising for charitable work, may dress as clowns and parade in tiny cars.)

 

[carbonjam72]

IIUC Raffaele has drawn a line in the sand. Good on him. Those of us who expressed opinions months' ago for the hate sites to curb their posts lest legal consequences ensue received ridicule in return.

So be it. None of us is above ridicule I suppose. "Open season" is perhaps one way of putting it. "Accountability" is another. Too many people expect no accountability, "I'm entitled to my opinion."

Ok. Now it's time to sit back with a silent thought, "Yeah, how'd that opinion work out?" BTW - there is nothing "pro-victim" about those sites, other than the claim.

Its weird how guilters manage to make themselves the victims, after slandering two obviously innocent people for over 7 years.

They shouldn't have needed a court judgement to know that Amanda and Raf had nothing to do with it, that this is ALL Rudy's crime 100%, and Mignini is a menace to society with his deranged fantasies of satanic orgies.

And now that they have such a judgment, establishing the pure falsity of their misguided enterise, they still won't LISTEN. It's over ladies and gentleman, Elvis has left the building.

 

[carbonjam72]

Contemplating Clown Cars...

No Coulrophobia! (Fear of clowns; Shriners are Masons who, in the US, as part of their fundraising for charitable work, may dress as clowns and parade in tiny cars.)

Why does this strike me as such an apt metaphor for the prosecution in this case? Guess who leads the convoy, squished into his mini-mobile?

 

[Dougm]

As its open season on the pro victim sites I thought I’d have a go.
I didn’t understand this argument at the time but it seems you can predict the future.
There is a holocaust denier posting on one of the PMF sites today although he claims he isn’t one. Maybe he is playing one of those April fool pranks, possibly as he seems to be a noob.

In any case the political axiom seems applicable ‘If you're explaining, you're losing’

This thread has it all - retrocausality & now precognition.

What pro victim sites? I am not aware of any.

 

[NancyS]

What pro victim sites? I am not aware of any.

He thinks Guede is a victim

 

[Planigale]

Dette Amanda Knox ikke vigtigt. I Danmark har vi sand mordgåde tilfælde uløste på fire hundrede år. Royal forlovede druknede og prins og mange andre kongelige embedsmænd stukket og forgiftet. Diskuter beviser og løse sagen venligst.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Sebastien Winther

Prosecutor announces case closed. Lady Macbeth and her boyfriend the Thane of Cawdor are arrested for the murder of Ophelia. Trace DNA is found but the prosecutor claims Lady Macbeth washed all the blood away. The weird sisters, friends of Ophelia announce they knew Lady Macbeth was guilty by the pricking of their thumbs. Meanwhile the scientific police brew a charm of powerful trouble.

In a sensational twist Rosencrantz and Guildernstern flee the scene and are suspected of hiding out in a mid twentieth century plot; Thursday Next to investigate.

 

[sept79]

Hellman’ recent words about his horrible treatment by the Perugian judiciary have really clarified some things for me. I’m now starting to see this whole injustice as a cascade of consequences, each flowing from prior events and contributing to additional problems in the future. Here are some of the important elements that I see:
.
.
.
7. Massei turtles: Massei seems to have understood most of the evidence, and could have gotten it right, but he was too weak to go against his Perugian courthouse pals—he felt that he had to produce a report that vindicated the mistakes of Matteini and Micheli, fundamentally on the basis of Mignini’s prosecutorial misconduct. So, we have a report that is partially accurate as far as determining the facts, but dishonest in reaching conclusions from those facts. The published motivation ratified all of the prior misconduct in the case.
.
.
.

Did Massei refuse to grant the independent DNA study requested by the defense so as not to 'muddy the water'--i.e., his appointed mission was to find the defendants guilty?

 

[GreyFox]

Not that I really understand this post. But why should that be different than your last posts? You have always talked in riddles and not really cared about clarity.But allow me to say why it should be open season on the guilt websites now. It's not about revenge, it's about stopping the malicious activity that truly threatens Amanda Knox's quality of life if not even her actual life.

It keeps alive a culture of hate. While I really don't think most of the guilters would actually commit violence against Knox, there are a few that should concern us all, for example; both Grimbal (Grahame Rhodes) and the machine havery both posted actual death threats.

I expect most of the guilters and us will all melt away.. (it's over) Some of the PIP will now focus on others that have been wrongfully convicted ie: Miseri, Faria.
But I expect that most will just go back to their lives. My hope is that both Raffaele and Amanda can now just go on to have full productive and happy lives. But I do worry that in an interest in some kind of justice (although misguided) that the guilters won't allow that to happen.

I think it's a "baffle them with bull **** post". If not....i'm lost too. Guess if no one understands what your saying then they can't gain the upperhand in the conversation ? Still better than the racist hatred he posted earlier.

 

[GreyFox]

Knox didn't tell the police that Lumumba was the murderer; the police told her.

According to Knox's testimony, Knox's interrogators told her the person on the other end of the texts is the murderer, prompting her surprised and fearful response "It's him. It's him." As they walked her through a fantasy murder scenario, the interrogators asked where she would have been during the murder (in her room, replied Knox) and what she would have heard. Her reply was she would not have heard anything. Pressed why not, she replied "because I would have covered my ears".

This was an interrogator-created false confession, a manipulation of an honest and vulnerable 20 year old American in an Italian police interrogation. Done in a microphone-equipped interrogation room at 1 am, with Inspector Giobbi and Police Chief de Felice in the control room down the hall listening to her screaming. No wonder the recording has never seen the light of day!

Could you IMAGINE ! Good point Strozzie. Knox never said it went down like this.....Rather they said to her it went down like this. REMEMBER ! Now put your Amanda Knox here please. It can't be said enough. This wasn't her confession. It was the polices statement with Knox's signature. Exactly as they wanted it so it served their purpose.AKA ...the fork in the road.

 

[Desert Fox]

I didn’t understand this argument at the time but it seems you can predict the future.
There is a holocaust denier posting on one of the PMF sites today although he claims he isn’t one. Maybe he is playing one of those April fool pranks, possibly as he seems to be a noob.

In any case the political axiom seems applicable ‘If you're explaining, you're losing’

This thread has it all - retrocausality & now precognition.

I am very fro Free Speech. I will support anybody saying that Amanda and Raffaele are guilty even though I do not share the thought.

The only issue I might have is if there are threats against either one. If the language reaches a threatening stage, then I have an issue.

Still, I will not pay attention to the pro guilt side unless there is a reasoned argument.