Continuation Part 14: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[carbonjam72]

That is quite interesting. The DM language is not fully clear, I assume the lawyers are asking the CSC to delay a decision until the ECHR moves on the application relating to calunnia.

I don't think I read this as asking the ISC to suspend its hearing, I read this as a request to the ECHR to step in and suspend the ISC proceedings until such time as they have addressed Amanda's ECHR calunnia appeal.

Here are the quote, I'll highlight why I'm reading it as a direct appeal to ECHR:

However, it has now been revealed Knox's lawyers have turned to the European Court of Human Rights in a last ditch attempt to stop the final ratification of her conviction for murder.
They have asked for the case to be suspended, pending the acceptance of her appeal to the European Court against a conviction for slander.
Knox claims that she was coerced by police into making false statements blaming the murder on bar owner Patrick Lumumba during interrogations of more than 40 hours in November 2007.

As the slander is considered circumstantial evidence in her murder trial, her legal team asked for the murder trial to be suspended, Knox defence lawyer Carlo Della Vedova confirmed.
But the move has left representatives of the Kercher family shocked.
The Kercher's lawyer Vieri Fabiani said: ‘If the Strasbourg court condemns the Italian Republic, what would it change? What could it usefully serve? Absolutely nothing.’
Meanwhile, a consultant for Sollecito said that he had already said his goodbyes to his family and air hostess girlfriend Greta Menegaldo, who accompanied him to the packed courtroom this morning, where neither was able to find a seat.

The highlighted, and bolded quote from the Kercher's representative looks to me like they are worried about Strasbourg stepping in and ordering the proceedings suspended.

I'm reading this as a direct appeal to the ECHR.

And I don't think this is based on having received any signals from ECHR that the case would be accepted. I think its a last ditch strategy, just like Raf saying he can't remember if Amanda went out. They're throwing everything into it now, because they think they have nothing to lose.

I still think if ISC were left to deal with the case on its own, they would be acquitted without re-trial. Apparently both defense counsel don't agree.

Steve Moore said Amanda needed a final confirmation to get the case out of Italy and into the ECHR, but jesus you have to feel for Raf. He's reported in the DM article to have said good-bye to his family and girlfriend.

Meanwhile, the ISC can consider whether to endorse the notion of a shrewdly selective clean-up of DNA, fingerprints, and footsteps in wet blood leaving only Rudy's traces behind.

I can't see these convictions being confirmed, because its too damn crazy, and too damn public. But again, MOO.

 

[acbytesla]

Yes, Cuomo is a special kind of stupid. Thank god his father was governor, lord knows what that imbecile would be doing otherwise.

And his brother is the current Governor of NY.

 

[carbonjam72]

Is Fabiani a real lawyer? That has to be one if the most obtuse statements I've ever heard. More kercher rubbish.

The filing makes me think that dellavadova had a bad reaction to the proceedings today. I also can't believe that the echr would grant this relief; however, if they do, the case is over.

But ECHR should grant this relief. If the proceedings are based on human rights violations and unfair trial practices, it would save an enormous amount of heartache, expense and time to get it back onto the straight and narrow now.

Italy has already reversed the burden proof and is functioning under an inherently illegal standard. I say this because Dr Gill has said the burden on the defendants to prove contamination is literally impossible.

The reasoning employed thus far, with selective clean-ups, a rejection of DNA independent experts, the with holding and destruction of exculpatory evidence - you know what, Italy had its chance to play justice, its time for the adults to step in and show the kids how adults are supposed to behave.

It will be interesting to hear what happens next. Bit let's be straight about this, the Italian judiciary needs and deserves a punch in the mouth.

 

[carbonjam72]

And his brother is the current Governor of NY.

oh yeah, I forgot.

Hope this isn't off topic, But Brother Cuomo made a huge deal about curtailing corruption and formed a special committee for just that purpose. When they started digging up dirt, he disbanded the committee and cut their budget into irrelevancy. Truthfully, I never even liked the Dad.

 

[Kaosium]

I don't think I read this as asking the ISC to suspend its hearing, I read this as a request to the ECHR to step in and suspend the ISC proceedings until such time as they have addressed Amanda's ECHR calunnia appeal.

Here are the quote, I'll highlight why I'm reading it as a direct appeal to ECHR:



The highlighted, and bolded quote from the Kercher's representative looks to me like they are worried about Strasbourg stepping in and ordering the proceedings suspended.

I'm reading this as a direct appeal to the ECHR.

And I don't think this is based on having received any signals from ECHR that the case would be accepted. I think its a last ditch strategy, just like Raf saying he can't remember if Amanda went out. They're throwing everything into it now, because they think they have nothing to lose.

I still think if ISC were left to deal with the case on its own, they would be acquitted without re-trial. Apparently both defense counsel don't agree.

Steve Moore said Amanda needed a final confirmation to get the case out of Italy and into the ECHR, but jesus you have to feel for Raf. He's reported in the DM article to have said good-bye to his family and girlfriend.

Meanwhile, the ISC can consider whether to endorse the notion of a shrewdly selective clean-up of DNA, fingerprints, and footsteps in wet blood leaving only Rudy's traces behind.

I can't see these convictions being confirmed, because its too damn crazy, and too damn public. But again, MOO.

Don't read too much into a Daily Mail article, especially regarding this case. The ECHR isn't that kind of court, it requires a conviction to be finalized before they'll even consider it, it has no power to do anything like what one possible reading of that suggests.

More likely CDV is just subtly reminding them that the Grown Ups will eventually be sitting in judgement of their kangaroo court.

 

[Diocletus]

Don't read too much into a Daily Mail article, especially regarding this case. The ECHR isn't that kind of court, it requires a conviction to be finalized before they'll even consider it, it has no power to do anything like what one possible reading of that suggests.

More likely CDV is just subtly reminding them that the Grown Ups will eventually be sitting in judgement of their kangaroo court.

It does have a mechanism to do this.

 

[acbytesla]

What you don't seem to understand, I don't have any poop theories, it's the PIP's that seem to. Amanda didn't smell it, she has never said she did, she does say she saw it though, and from where she pointed out that she saw it, it is not possible

OF COURSE IT IS POSSIBLE! Not that whether or not she could smell it is relevant. I really don't understand why this matters in any way. You will have to explain your reasoning.

 

[Kauffer]

Is Fabiani a real lawyer? That has to be one if the most obtuse statements I've ever heard. More kercher rubbish.

The filing makes me think that dellavadova had a bad reaction to the proceedings today. I also can't believe that the echr would grant this relief; however, if they do, the case is over.

Fabiani surprisingly is a real lawyer - from Florence - unless he's the guy on Facebook who supports Borrussia Dortmund soccer club.

I didn't think that interim measures would be available either. But you are right - case over if it's granted.

The timings are interesting - if he asked, when he asked and what led him to do it. Much is not clear. You would have thought that if he'd asked earlier they would have given their answer before today, so your speculation may be accurate.

 

[Kauffer]

Don't read too much into a Daily Mail article, especially regarding this case. The ECHR isn't that kind of court, it requires a conviction to be finalized before they'll even consider it, it has no power to do anything like what one possible reading of that suggests.

More likely CDV is just subtly reminding them that the Grown Ups will eventually be sitting in judgement of their kangaroo court.

This is the calunnia conviction - it's finalised, but it relates to the murder case with cross over evidence. This would be a highly strategic move (but possibly a desperate one too). And yes, the ECHR has the power to grant this relief. But it's a huge deal. I would be pleasantly surprised. It would to all intents and purposes kill the cases if granted.

 

[carbonjam72]

It does have a mechanism to do this.

That's my understanding too.

Even if there hadn't been a calunnia conviction before ECHR, I believe they reserve the right to intervene sooner if they want to. Though normally they require a final verdict before accepting a case.

 

[Kaosium]

It does have a mechanism to do this.

That I didn't know, I was aware they had some sort of mechanism in dire circumstances to get cases heard faster, but not that they could do anything that might stop a current trial in its tracks before it was ruled upon.

 

[Kaosium]

This is the calunnia conviction - it's finalised, but it relates to the murder case with cross over evidence. This would be a highly strategic move (but possibly a desperate one too).

I get that part, what I was mostly responding to was CJ's opinion that it was a 'direct appeal to the ECHR' to suspend the current murder trial case. I wasn't aware there was anything they could do along those lines, but would be delighted to be proven wrong.

 

[Kauffer]

I get that part, what I was mostly responding to was that CJ's opinion that it was a 'direct appeal to the ECHR' to suspend the current murder trial case. I wasn't aware there was anything they could do along those lines, but would be delighted to be proven wrong.

Yes that's exactly what it would be.

They would be saying to the ECHR - if you find for us over calunnia, then the murder case is sunk below the water line. So, let's put the horse before the cart and tell us the answer before they go ahead with a final, probably adverse judgement in the murder trial.

 

[Kaosium]

Yes that's exactly what it would be.

They would be saying to the ECHR - if you find for us over calunnia, then the murder case is sunk below the water line. So, let's put the horse before the cart and tell us the answer before they go ahead with a final, probably adverse judgement in the murder trial.

Ah, OK. I still think it's more likely they asked the ISC to suspend judgement until the ECHR rules on the calunnia charge.

ETA

I understand CJ's argument and why he thinks so, I just think the Daily Mail article was written sloppily.

 

[Kauffer]

Ah, OK. I still think it's more likely they asked the ISC to suspend judgement until the ECHR rules on the calunnia charge.

No, I'm pretty sure they've gone direct to the ECHR.

"However, it has now been revealed Knox's lawyers have turned to the European Court of Human Rights in a last ditch attempt to stop the final ratification of her conviction for murder."

 

[Kaosium]

No, I'm pretty sure they've gone direct to the ECHR.

"However, it has now been revealed Knox's lawyers have turned to the European Court of Human Rights in a last ditch attempt to stop the final ratification of her conviction for murder."

That's exactly what I mean. That seems to imply that CDV literally appealed to the ECHR, (on this specifically) whereas I suspect they just wrote that sloppily and CDV was saying that to the ISC but was invoking the ECHR and the writer of the piece just put it as 'turning to the ECHR in a last ditch effort.'

 

[Kauffer]

That's exactly what I mean. That seems to imply that CDV literally appealed to the ECHR, (on this specifically) whereas I suspect they just wrote that sloppily and CDV was saying that to the ISC but was invoking the ECHR and the writer of the piece just put it as 'turning to the ECHR in a last ditch effort.'

Well you could be right of course, but I don't see that being a mechanism before Cassation. Whereas we know there is a mechanism at the ECHR for precisely this situation - all be it that its application in these circumstances may not work.

The ECHR would have to be persuaded that Ms Knox would be placed in fairly immediate jeopardy, as far as I remember, and that's a stretch here.

I'll look into this more.

 

[Diocletus]

No, I'm pretty sure they've gone direct to the ECHR.

"However, it has now been revealed Knox's lawyers have turned to the European Court of Human Rights in a last ditch attempt to stop the final ratification of her conviction for murder."

It puzzles me though how the Kerchers lawyer would know about this.

 

[Kauffer]

It puzzles me though how the Kerchers lawyer would know about this.

Maybe they were all with the press gaggle and it came out there and then.

The Mail article was last updated about 8:30pm GMT, which is 12:30 - lunchtime in Seattle, but this press would have happened a couple of hours before that.

PNF haven't picked it up and it's not mentioned there, though they have people at the court - yummi's there too.

I haven't found another reference to it at all yet.

 

[acbytesla]

What you do not seem to understand, is she pointed out exactly where she was standing to the Prosecutor when asked before her first trial, a picture was taken from that same spot, and guess what, you can't even come close to seeing it, not to mention, the person taking the picture was probably quite a bit taller than Amanda's 5 foot, 4 inch stature.

So? Maybe she was just wrong about this point and she mis-remembered. That happens all the time in life. Don't you get that this is totally irrelevant? Amanda has no reason to lie about it even if she was guilty. With all respect, this is the kind of nonsense that guilters get bogged down in. They pick apart everything that they think is inconsistent and convince themselves that this is evidence of guilt. But the truth is this is at best minor mis-remembering. Far more important is that there is no link to Rudy. No incriminating tapped phone calls of any kind. No physical evidence and no credible motive, a TOD that makes their involvement virtually impossible.