Machine Gun America

I can think of at least three full auto rifles designed for the .22LR. The one I've wanted to see was the American-180.
It's not the rifle necessarily, but the ammunition. Go through 300 rounds of .22 rimfire and it's likely you get 1, 2 or 3 that fail to fire on first attempt, especially with bulk ammo and why would you shoot the expensive stuff full auto?

The reason is the way priming compound must be distributed evenly around the rim, often a spot is missed and if this is the spot the firing pin strikes it doesn't fire. That's why you can usually make it work by re-chambering the same cartridge, the firing pin hits a different spot that wasn't missed by the primer and it fires.

This is a big reason why centerfire replaced rimfire, much more reliable to go "bang" every time. And why .22 rimfire isn't a great choice for self defense.
 
Ask them if they have a Chauchat.

Possibly the worst weapon ever issued to AMerican troops.
The real irony is that the Marines had been using the Lewis Gun for a number of years in the "Banana Wars" in Latin America, and Marine units sent to France had to exchange their farily reliable Lewis Guns for the that POS weapon known as the Chauchat.
The doughboys soon had some NSFW puns on the name of the Chauchat involving changing the C and the A in the last four letters for S and I. It was so unreliable that soliders would dump it for a bolt action Springfield.

And Lest we be accused of prejudice because the Chauchat was a French weapon, the Poilus felt exactly the same way about it as the Doughboys.

Runner up in the worst firearm competition might be the Reising SMG of World War 2 and for the same reason:it was totally unreliable. The only reasons the Marines issued it was because they needed large numbers ofSMG in a hurry after Pearl Harbor, (their stock of Thompsons was nowhere near adequate for the numbers needed )and the US Army had already pretty much tied up the Thompson production for the foreseeable future.
The Reising did not last long. Although it was not a SMG, as soon as the M1 Carbine became available, it replaced the Reising. Later that year the M3 Greasegun finally gave the Marines enough SMGs.
 
Possibly the worst weapon ever issued to AMerican troops.
The real irony is that the Marines had been using the Lewis Gun for a number of years in the "Banana Wars" in Latin America, and Marine units sent to France had to exchange their farily reliable Lewis Guns for the that POS weapon known as the Chauchat.
The doughboys soon had some NSFW puns on the name of the Chauchat involving changing the C and the A in the last four letters for S and I. It was so unreliable that soliders would dump it for a bolt action Springfield.

And Lest we be accused of prejudice because the Chauchat was a French weapon, the Poilus felt exactly the same way about it as the Doughboys.

Runner up in the worst firearm competition might be the Reising SMG of World War 2 and for the same reason:it was totally unreliable. The only reasons the Marines issued it was because they needed large numbers ofSMG in a hurry after Pearl Harbor, (their stock of Thompsons was nowhere near adequate for the numbers needed )and the US Army had already pretty much tied up the Thompson production for the foreseeable future.
The Reising did not last long. Although it was not a SMG, as soon as the M1 Carbine became available, it replaced the Reising. Later that year the M3 Greasegun finally gave the Marines enough SMGs.

I don't disagree, but let's not leave out the early M60's and the M73/M219 machine guns.

Here's a wiki on the M73/M219

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M73_machine_gun

Here's my .02 on the early pre-product improved 60's based on having been issued it and having a bunch of different MG experience before I got my hands on it.

The thing starts out with a good premise, and almost immediately goes to **** because of cost cutting in the development and manufacturing process.

The original design basically beats itself to death during use due to the design of the locking lugs into the barrel extension, there was no secondary safety sear cut in the op rod, meaning a sear failure would result in the piece running away till it was empty or a smart operator twisted the belt so that it couldn't feed, the barrel change latch could bail out on it's own volition (you haven't lived till your MG barrel decides to walk off the job while it's at work) the closed bottom receiver design (as opposed to the old Browning 1919 series and the later MAG 58 and M 240 bottom ejection design) serves to collect crud like it's gold, and also serves to make malfunction clearance a real joy. The trigger housing on the originals was held in by a leaf spring not much different than the design used in FAL's and L1A1's on the trigger/hammer pins, except the M60's retainer was outside the trigger housing as opposed to inside on the FAL, and that little piece of sheetmetal sometime took off for parts unknown at the most inopportune moments - other than those little problems the thing was great.

It only took 20 some odd years to begin to addressing these design flaws - long after my time - and two solutions got us where we are today - one was a complete revamp of just about every single part on the thing that ended up being type classified as the M60 E3 and E4, and the best of the bunch the Navy SpecOps Mk43 Mod 0/1 and similar, designed and built by U.S. Ordnance in Nev.

The other solution is that someone finally got over themselves and adopted the modern version of the MAG - 58, type classified here as the M 240 - pay close attention here as the MAG-58 was in production and was being issued to troops in the Commonwealth and other nations 2 years before the M-60 was type classified, and all the '58 was an adaptation of the original Browning 1918 BAR gas system to a receiver design variant that dates back to the Browning 1919 series .30 caliber belt fed machine guns - but as the '58 "wasn't designed here (!)" the '58 wasn't even considered for adoption back when the U.S. military wanted a GPMG.
 
I have been looking for a gun thread to parachute into because I wanted to ask a couple of questions of the resident "Gun Enthusiasts", and this seemed like as good a one as any.

Just recently, I watched a movie called "Shooter" (Mark Wahlberg) about an ex-Marine Corps sniper who gets left behind after an op goes wrong, and later gets accused of planning the assassination of POTUS.

There are two "gun science" questions I have about this movie.

1. Part way though the movie, Wahlberg's character "John Lee Swagger" visits a reclusive old gun expert and asks him if it is possible to make the striations on a bullet fired from one rifle, appear as if it matched a bullet fired from a second rifle. The gun expert said it could be done by wrapping the bullet with paper before firing it. I didn't understand how that would work but is this truth or fiction?

2. Near the end of the movie, Swagger proves the bullet wasn't fired from his rifle because before he left his cabin, he swapped the firing pins around on all his rifles. As a result, the rifle stolen from his cabin would not fire no matter how many times you tried. He says something like "they look the same, you would need a micrometer to tell the difference". Truth or fiction?
 
1. Part way though the movie, Wahlberg's character "John Lee Swagger" visits a reclusive old gun expert and asks him if it is possible to make the striations on a bullet fired from one rifle, appear as if it matched a bullet fired from a second rifle. The gun expert said it could be done by wrapping the bullet with paper before firing it. I didn't understand how that would work but is this truth or fiction?
Nonsense. The paper might foul the bullet, but the striations would be collected anyway.
2. Near the end of the movie, Swagger proves the bullet wasn't fired from his rifle because before he left his cabin, he swapped the firing pins around on all his rifles. As a result, the rifle stolen from his cabin would not fire no matter how many times you tried. He says something like "they look the same, you would need a micrometer to tell the difference". Truth or fiction?
Possibly, but then you have to have guns that can swap firing pins. As for a micrometer, if the difference is that small why wouldn't it work in the other gun?
 

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Nonsense. The paper might foul the bullet, but the striations would be collected anyway.

I thought it sounded like BS

Possibly, but then you have to have guns that can swap firing pins. As for a micrometer, if the difference is that small why wouldn't it work in the other gun?

The rifle concerned was a Cheytac M-200 Intervention, shown here in the scene with Wahlberg has he is about to demonstrate (somewhat dramatically) that the weapon won't fire

Mark-Wahlberg-Shooter-Cheytac-M200.jpg


It was clear froim the earlier cabin scenes that he possessed at least three of this model sniper rifle
 
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1. Part way though the movie, Wahlberg's character "John Lee Swagger" visits a reclusive old gun expert and asks him if it is possible to make the striations on a bullet fired from one rifle, appear as if it matched a bullet fired from a second rifle. The gun expert said it could be done by wrapping the bullet with paper before firing it. I didn't understand how that would work but is this truth or fiction?
It would work as long as the paper worked like a discarding sabot (unlikely) or the paper peeled off (most likely) when hitting the target. One would also need to fire the bullet through the "guilty bore" to place the incriminating marks on it, then catch it in a soft medium that would not deform the bullet, or hammer it through manually without somehow deforming the bullet base. The paper wrapped around the bullet would then engage the rifling and protect the copper jacket from being marked up again.

I thought that part of the plot was foolish and overly complicated. The recovered bullet (a .406 Cheytach?) was supposed to have been paper patched and fired from a rifle with a larger bore just to leave the incriminating evidence at the scene. It would be much easier to just plant a .406 caliber recovered bullet at the scene for investigators to find later on. I don't think anyone wanting to hit a target from long range is going to even think about paper patching a long jacketed bullet to do it.

2. Near the end of the movie, Swagger proves the bullet wasn't fired from his rifle because before he left his cabin, he swapped the firing pins around on all his rifles. As a result, the rifle stolen from his cabin would not fire no matter how many times you tried. He says something like "they look the same, you would need a micrometer to tell the difference". Truth or fiction?
Filing about .050" to .100" off the end of a firing pin would most likely prevent it from striking the primer rending the gun incapable of functioning. A micrometer is not needed to tell the difference if the person is very familiar with the pin or if the altered pin was held next to an unaltered one.

Ranb
 
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It would work as long as the paper worked like a discarding sabot (unlikely) or the paper peeled off (most likely) when hitting the target.
Do you think it would survive the trip down the barrel still wrapped around the bullet? How do we get the paper to adhere to the bullet when a part of the cylindrical part is inside the case?
 
The rifling lands mark up the bullet. If the lead or copper jacketed lead bullet is the same size as the top of the lands, for example a .300" bullet in a .308 bore, then the paper might be the only thing marked and not the lead bullet. I might be wrong. I could paper patch a .451" pistol bullet to fire it in my .458 rifle to see if it leaves any marks. That would be an interesting experiment.

ETA: http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/black-powder/244501-paper-patching-bullets-pictures-long.html Here is a link to a person who paper patches lead bullets. He says the bullet gets rifling marks left on it. Post #7. He also goes on to say that the paper patch needs to extend past the heel of the bullet, twisted then tucked into the hollow base. I just don't see this paper patch method being at all compatible with a boat tail jacketed bullet.

I'm not sure if there are any sabots made to fire a .406 bullet in a .510 chamber. I've sure I could make one though. Turn down some delron rod and bore it out to fit the bullet and chamber. Cut slots most of the way down and it discards itself upon leaving the bore. I think the script writers did not have much imagination.

Ranb
 
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The rifling lands mark up the bullet. If the lead or copper jacketed lead bullet is the same size as the top of the lands, for example a .300" bullet in a .308 bore, then the paper might be the only thing marked and not the lead bullet. I might be wrong. I could paper patch a .451" pistol bullet to fire it in my .458 rifle to see if it leaves any marks. That would be an interesting experiment.

Ranb
We could get Grant, Tory and Kari to test that. :)

Oh wait. :(
 
When I test my ice bullets it will be with a 12 gauge shot shell in a smooth bore. Why did anyone think that ice would hold together in a rifled bore anyway? Even Mythbusters is supposed to be better than that.

ETA; Further reading shows people will rough up a jacketed bullet with a file so the paper will stick to it when it is fired down the bore. Some guy shot 7mm in a 30 cal bore this way. No data I can find on the internet as to how long the paper stays on the bullet after it leaves the bore.

Ranb
 
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I thought it sounded like BS



The rifle concerned was a Cheytac M-200 Intervention, shown here in the scene with Wahlberg has he is about to demonstrate (somewhat dramatically) that the weapon won't fire

[qimg]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98915197/JREF/Mark-Wahlberg-Shooter-Cheytac-M200.jpg[/qimg]

It was clear froim the earlier cabin scenes that he possessed at least three of this model sniper rifle

I have a better picture of the rifle and an explanation that I will post later tonight.

Short version - It was "Bob Lee Swagger", a paper patch would be ineffective on a jacketed bullet at high velocity, and yes, modifying a firing pin to a shorter OAL that spec. would keep a firearm from firing.
 
I have a better picture of the rifle and an explanation that I will post later tonight.

Short version - It was "Bob Lee Swagger", a paper patch would be ineffective on a jacketed bullet at high velocity, and yes, modifying a firing pin to a shorter OAL that spec. would keep a firearm from firing.

OK, I went back and watched the last scene again. I think I may have initially misunderstood what Wahlberg's character meant when he said he swapped all the firing pins. I thought he meant he had swapped them between his rifles. I could not see how that could work; these rifles are pieces of precision machinery. Sapping over the firing pins might stop one from firing because its firing pin would be marginally short, but that means the other rifle would now have a marginally long firing pin and would therefore still fire.

It would only make sense if he swapped all the firing pins for different (shorter) ones; just short enough to not fire, but not so short that you'd notice without measuring.
 

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