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'What about building 7'?

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And I believe this sort of fairly obvious rhetorical nonsense is why the Truther movement doesn't get any traction in the relevant industries or sciences.
Yes, but that's not AE911T's goal anyway. Its goal is to convince laymen, or even engineers but not in the technical arena. In all its years it has not produced a single report providing a complete alternative explanation of the events of 9/11. Its "controlled demolition" canard is based on bogus premises and reasoning. No engineer or architect in their association has provided sound analysis for the events, and there's zero proof of explosives anywhere. That just now a few of them have started working on it, after all these years, tells us lots about what their focus has actually been all these years, as you well noted upthread.

It's sad, and telling, that their focus is in denying the current theory, not in producing a better one explaining the whole of the events of that day. And they do so from a prejudiced standpoint, starting from the premise that it was a controlled demolition, and trying to walk backwards from there.

I know that has been said in past, and maybe a tad off-topic, but I thought it was worth repeating.
 
It's sad, and telling, that their focus is in denying the current theory, not in producing a better one explaining the whole of the events of that day. And they do so from a prejudiced standpoint, starting from the premise that it was a controlled demolition, and trying to walk backwards from there.

I know that has been said in past, and maybe a tad off-topic, but I thought it was worth repeating.

It's worth endless repetition. No Truther here, or elsewhere, has come up with a remotely plausible explanation of the supposed WTC CD's.

Meanwhile gerrycan, MM and others will argue to the end of the world that an inch or two around col 79 might "prove" NIST was complicit in a coverup. Therefore CD

I don't know how the onus of proof ended up like this, when the CTists have offered zilch that makes one grain of sense.
 
It's worth endless repetition. No Truther here, or elsewhere, has come up with a remotely plausible explanation of the supposed WTC CD's.

Meanwhile gerrycan, MM and others will argue to the end of the world that an inch or two around col 79 might "prove" NIST was complicit in a coverup. Therefore CD

I don't know how the onus of proof ended up like this, when the CTists have offered zilch that makes one grain of sense.

Aside from the lack of a comprehensive description of the supposed 'real' 9/11events, AE911T and its proponents have not even come up with an internally consistent, non-question begging, comprehensive description of what occurred in WTC7. ((ETA: nor, individually for the towers, the Pentagon , or flight 93) Instead, the sum total of evidence for controlled demolition of WTC7 is that it looks like one, and that people characterized sounds as "explosions". This despite the declaration that that structure's collapse is the "smoking gun" evidence of inside job.


Instead all they do is it pick at NIST, and argue on the internet, oh and of course, raise money.

One poster rails on about other members here having pet theories based on , but supposedly not consistent with the NIST report. The irony is that one truther here as his pet theory, unfleshed out as it is, that does not include the AE911T tenet that all WTC7 perimeter columns were blown out all at once and over eight storeys.

If I am ever wrongly accused of a crime I do not want Gerrycan or Ziggi on my jury. Conversely if I did commit a crime and face a jury, I want them on it.
 
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Their over arching conspiracy is the "inside" job / false flag... which includes staged hijackings, NORAD stand downs, and CDs then it's all covered up. It includes planted media stories and so on.
 
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Their over arching conspiracy is the "inside" job / false flag... which includes staged hijackings, NORAD stand downs, and CDs then it's all covered up. It includes planted media stories and so on.
yes it includes all if that in various forms and believed ir not by various truthers. However there is no full description that many truthers are behind to any great extent
Ziggi was it? Who commented on the individual take on NIST reports he sees debunkers taking. OTOH, each individual truther has , it seems, his own wishy washy idea if the 'true' events of the day.
While debunkers have actual technical studies by NIST and other recognized expert grouos and individuals, the 9/11 truth movement is essentially stuck in a political world view driven, "it looks like" scenario that has not seen much progress to technical discussion in a decade.

Not to mention the huge list of begged questions arising from the notions you list.
 
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It's worth endless repetition. No Truther here, or elsewhere, has come up with a remotely plausible explanation of the supposed WTC CD's.

The fact they ignore this issue after claiming there is one is telling:

To be clear, the sound of an explosion does not necessitate the existence of explosives, but they do corroborate the theory. And if you say, "those weren't explosions, they were xyz", you are also engaged in an argument from ignorance.

Wait, you have a controlled demolition theory? Do tell, no "truther" has ever presented one.

<crickets>
 
Well, can you show me where in the analytical model should these plates have been added? Once the CoG of the girder was off the seat, the girder would be doomed.



You keep asking the wrong question. The criteria to be deemed to have failed was not the movement of the girder alone. It was the relative distance between the girder and the seat.

A2001 was pushed west by the beams east of it, possibly with leveraging which would have made the distance at the end greater than the distance the beams expanded. The seat was pushed east by the girder west of the column.

Time to check out more assertions made on this thread, in particular the claims that 1) a leverage effect could have provided greater displacement than the expansion distance and 2) that the column displacement happened at the right time to be a factor in the walk off.

As for 1), this scenario is not possible unless the data shows that the connections of the floor beams closest to column 79 have failed, and that the beams closest to column 44 are simultaneously still connected to the girder. I have not seen anyone provide this data, so this seems to be one of those made up fantasies some people like to substitue for NIST´s story.

As for 2), NIST does not seem to specify anywhere that this column displacement helped out the girder walk off scenario, which could mean the simulation showed that it was not displaced until after the 44-79 girder had allegedly walked off its seat. Can you provide a reference to where NIST says the column displacement was a factor?
 
Time to check out more assertions made on this thread, in particular the claims that 1) a leverage effect could have provided greater displacement than the expansion distance and 2) that the column displacement happened at the right time to be a factor in the walk off.

As for 1), this scenario is not possible unless the data shows that the connections of the floor beams closest to column 79 have failed, and that the beams closest to column 44 are simultaneously still connected to the girder. I have not seen anyone provide this data, so this seems to be one of those made up fantasies some people like to substitue for NIST´s story.

As for 2), NIST does not seem to specify anywhere that this column displacement helped out the girder walk off scenario, which could mean the simulation showed that it was not displaced until after the 44-79 girder had allegedly walked off its seat. Can you provide a reference to where NIST says the column displacement was a factor?

So how did the connection fail? We know it was not explosives, because no evidence of explosives was ever found at any of the three WTC sites.

Thermite? It's not a high explosive, it's an incendiary, and totally ineffective in the precision cutting of steel frame members, which is required for the controlled demolition of high rise steel frame buildings.
 
Time to check out more assertions made on this thread, in particular the claims that 1) a leverage effect could have provided greater displacement than the expansion distance and 2) that the column displacement happened at the right time to be a factor in the walk off.

As for 1), this scenario is not possible unless the data shows that the connections of the floor beams closest to column 79 have failed, and that the beams closest to column 44 are simultaneously still connected to the girder. I have not seen anyone provide this data, so this seems to be one of those made up fantasies some people like to substitue for NIST´s story.

As for 2), NIST does not seem to specify anywhere that this column displacement helped out the girder walk off scenario, which could mean the simulation showed that it was not displaced until after the 44-79 girder had allegedly walked off its seat. Can you provide a reference to where NIST says the column displacement was a factor?
As for (1), I merely pointed it out as a possibility that was not accounted for by gerrycan. A more elaborate version of your argument might reasonably account for it.

As for (2), I think it's not under dispute that NIST *does* report that the simulation showed walk-off. While they don't mention it explicitly as a factor, the timeframe for column displacement matches (between 3.5 and 4.0 hours for Case B). They mention the walk-off happened between 3.7 and 4.0 hours, so while the timeframes for column displacement and walk-off overlap, it's a bit more likely that the column displacement preceded the walk-off.

Ultimately, that's a question that you should ask NIST, not me. I just pointed out that the report mentions such a movement.

On the other hand, I'd be interested in watching how you address JayUtah's questions. I'll give you time to address them.
 
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Time to check out more assertions made on this thread, in particular the claims that 1) a leverage effect could have provided greater displacement than the expansion distance and 2) that the column displacement happened at the right time to be a factor in the walk off.

As for 1), this scenario is not possible unless the data shows that the connections of the floor beams closest to column 79 have failed, and that the beams closest to column 44 are simultaneously still connected to the girder. I have not seen anyone provide this data, so this seems to be one of those made up fantasies some people like to substitue for NIST´s story.

The data does show shear damage to the bolts holding the beams to the girder and the beam closest to column 44 would not need to have intact bolts to push since it would be supported by the girder flange and the beam stubs.

See NCSTAR 1-9 vol2 Fig 11-27, 11-35 and 11-43. These indicate 75-100% failure of the beam connections near column 79 with initially lower damage to the connections for the beam near column 44 at the 3.5 hour mark increasing to 75-99% failure at 4 hours.
 
Hello Ziggi, welcome to the forum.



Actually, and just to nitpick, they don't. They say that, but for the beams, not for the girder, though they mention girders failing "in this manner" (which may be interpreted as the failure of the flange as described for beams, but it may also refer generically to a displacement by a distance of half the seat width). But since you concede anyway that that distance is enough, let's not focus on that.



NIST said in p.482 of NCSTAR 1-9 volume 2 (last sentence in the page) that "eam walk off in the lateral direction was monitored during the analysis". That sentence appears in the description of the analytical model, which also mentions that walk-off in the axial direction was monitored through a control element (I presume that they meant the COMBIN37 one in the illustration).

Then in section 11.3, titled "ANALYSIS RESULTS", they give more details on that monitoring:

The analysis of the structural response of WTC 7 to the effects of elevated temperatures produced a large volume of output data. Results for Floors 2 to 7 and Floors 15 and 16 are not presented as they were subject only to gravity loads and were not subjected to thermal loads. The analysis results for Floors 8 to 14 were first examined graphically for a selected response, such as vertical displacement or strains. Areas of interest were then examined in more detail by listing the results of interest.
(p.489).

Then in the same section, in subsection 11.3.2 (Case B temperatures), p.504, it says: "The following beam and girder failures occurred: [...] On Floor 13 (Figure 11-35), all four of the north-south girders attached to Columns 79, 80, and 81 had failed, due to either buckling or girder walk off of the bearing seat at Columns 79 and 81".

Note that they are not mentioning here the precise mechanism that caused the failure; in the context of a section that reports the results of the ANSYS analysis, the only possible meaning of their words is that they are saying that the FEA produced that result. Nothing more, nothing less. This necessarily means that by that time, the distance between the girder's center and the seat's center at the point where the girder and the seat were when the failure occurred, exceeded a certain predetermined distance, as that's the criterion for determining if that girder walks off the seat or not. And that distance was monitored from ANSYS output, as I've already established above.

At no point in the report do they say that any beam expanded by 5.5" or 6.25". That claim doesn't exist in the report. That distance is indicated as "the distance for walk-off", not "the distance by which the beams expanded".

What they do mention, however, is that "[o]n Floors 10, 11, and 12 (Figure 11-32, Figure 11-33, and Figure 11-34), the girder between Columns 76 and 79 failed due to a tensile weld failure in the knife connection on the west side of Column 79. Temperatures in this region were less than 100 °C on these floors. The tensile force in the connection was due to an eastward lateral displacement of Column 79, which was primarily caused by thermal expansion of the girder between Column 76 and Column 79 at Floor 13". This NECESSARILY indicates a displacement of the seat to the east in ANSYS. No way around it. The girder between 76 and 79 was next to the seat.

So, that's primarily what NIST is saying here: that the simulation showed the girder walking off the seat. They don't point to exact reasons.

They proceed to interpret the results in the next section, 11.4: "DISCUSSION OF RESULTS". They repeat this (p.525, top): "By 4.0 h of heating, there was substantially more damage in the WTC 7 structural system, particularly the loss of lateral support to Column 79 after the failure of girder connections at Floors 10, 11, 12, and 13. [...] The girder between Columns 44 and 79 had walked off the bearing seat at Column 79 on Floor 13, and all 4 bolts had failed on Floor 14 and two to three bolts had failed on Floor 12 at this seated connection".

Later in this section, in page 527, they say: "Walk off occurred when beams that framed into the girders from one side thermally expanded and the resulting compressive forces in the beams pushed laterally on the girder from one side, sheared the bolts at the seated connection, and then continued to push the girder laterally until it walked off the bearing seat". Note that it doesn't say what happened to the seat. That sentence is followed by: "A girder was considered to have lost vertical support when its web was no longer supported by the bearing seat. The bearing seat at Column 79 was 11 in. wide. Thus, when the girder end at Column 79 had been pushed laterally at least 5.5 in., it was no longer supported by the bearing seat". That distance was later corrected to 6.25 in.

Note that:
1. They don't say that the beams expanded that much. They only say that when that situation happened, the girder would no longer be supported.
2. This is an interpretation of the results, not the results themselves.
3. For discussion purposes, it's reasonable to consider that since the column displaced east, they are talking about the main factor that displaced the girder from the seat and not each and every factor.

The mention to the displacement of the column comes in the paragraph next to it: The temperature of the girder between Columns 76 and 79 on Floor 13 was sufficient to displace Column 76 to the west and Column 79 to the east. The forced displacements at Floors 10, 11, and 12 created a tensile load in the girder knife connections to the columns, and failed the connection fillet weld to the column". Note how they mention column 79 displacing east.

So, are they guilty of not being specific enough about the pushing of the column to the east, as they said happened in the simulation, in the fragment of the discussion related to the girder walk-off? Yes, definitely. That doesn't invalidate the report, however. That's focusing too much in the primary cause and forgetting about the secondary ones, that certainly happened. But they are not lying or misrepresenting the primary cause of the failure. That also does not invalidate the initiating event experienced in their FEA in any possible way.

Hope I have made the point clear enough to you.


Time to check out more assertions made on this thread, in particular the claims that 1) a leverage effect could have provided greater displacement than the expansion distance and 2) that the column displacement happened at the right time to be a factor in the walk off.

.,....

As for 2), NIST does not seem to specify anywhere that this column displacement helped out the girder walk off scenario, which could mean the simulation showed that it was not displaced until after the 44-79 girder had allegedly walked off its seat. Can you provide a reference to where NIST says the column displacement was a factor?

Well they have col 79 displacing in the fea thus its before collapse. Are you claiming it was after column walk off?
Are you claiming there was an unmentioned re-straightening of col 79?

If it displaced, and the fea says it did, then it did contribute to the girder walk off, how could it not?
 
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As for (1), I merely pointed it out as a possibility that was not accounted for by gerrycan. A more elaborate version of your argument might reasonably account for it.

As for (2), I think it's not under dispute that NIST *does* report that the simulation showed walk-off. While they don't mention it explicitly as a factor, the timeframe for column displacement matches (between 3.5 and 4.0 hours for Case B). They mention the walk-off happened between 3.7 and 4.0 hours, so while the timeframes for column displacement and walk-off overlap, it's a bit more likely that the column displacement preceded the walk-off.

Ultimately, that's a question that you should ask NIST, not me. I just pointed out that the report mentions such a movement.

On the other hand, I'd be interested in watching how you address JayUtah's questions. I'll give you time to address them.

So you believe that the model at 4H for Case B can have these 8 connections (circled) with 0% damage whilst showing a displacement of column 79 to the East due to the C76-79 girder expanding?
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So you believe that the model at 4H for Case B can have these 8 connections (circled) with 0% damage whilst showing a displacement of column 79 to the East due to the C76-79 girder expanding?
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=32618&stc=1&d=1425407865[/qimg]

Are the blue circles where the explosives were and the yellow rectangle where the thermite was ?
 
Do you know what solution convergence means?

Load balancing the model.

Oh dear...

Dave

Wrong, try again.

ETA: Start with wiki .

Convergence Procedure
The difference between external and internal loads is called the
residual. It is a measure of the force imbalance in the structure.
The goal is to iterate until the residual becomes acceptably small; less than
the criterion, where the solution is then considered converged.
When convergence is achieved, the solution is in equilibrium, within an
acceptable tolerance.
 
So you believe that the model at 4H for Case B can have these 8 connections (circled) with 0% damage whilst showing a displacement of column 79 to the East due to the C76-79 girder expanding?
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=32618&stc=1&d=1425407865[/qimg]
Why are the other connections of any significance? A2002 (between 79 and 80) was buckled. According to NIST's criteria, that means it was removed from analysis.

A procedure was developed for addressing buckled and/or failed components so that any member that did not structurally contribute to the response of the building was removed from the analysis to improve computational efficiency and avoid convergence problems. This procedure was used to modify the model at the end of each 30 min interval, or as necessary when the analysis halted due to non-convergence.
(NCSTAR 1-9 p.487)
 
Why are the other connections of any significance? A2002 (between 79 and 80) was buckled. According to NIST's criteria, that means it was removed from analysis.

A procedure was developed for addressing buckled and/or failed components so that any member that did not structurally contribute to the response of the building was removed from the analysis to improve computational efficiency and avoid convergence problems. This procedure was used to modify the model at the end of each 30 min interval, or as necessary when the analysis halted due to non-convergence.
(NCSTAR 1-9 p.487)

Yes and all the beams attached to it would be removed too.
I am not talking about the C79-80 girder though. I am talking about C76-79, the one you say expanded and pushed the column to the east without damaging any of the 8 connections that I highlighted.
 
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Yes and all the beams attached to it would be removed too.
I am not talking about the C79-80 girder though. I am talking about C76-79, the one you say expanded and pushed the column to the east without damaging any of the 8 connections that I highlighted.
My problem is that with both the girder between 76 and 77 and the girder between 79 and 80 buckled, I don't see why you bring up anything else than the connections of the girder between 76 and 79. If they are removed from analysis, the connections aren't affected, obviously.
 
Why are the other connections of any significance? A2002 (between 79 and 80) was buckled. According to NIST's criteria, that means it was removed from analysis.

Are you keeping in mind that the girder between 79 and 80 isn't red, ie the end connections have not failed? The girder would not be removed at that point.
 
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