Continuation Part 13: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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I plan to post this elsewhere to see what kind of reactions I get. I have tried to change the details to make it not obviously the Kercher case but still keep the spirits. Thoughts if it works and anything I should change?


Shouldn't you mention that Charles shirt was torn and bloody and the chief forensics investigator even pointed out that one of the buttons was missing, torn from the shirt with part of the cloth. And that this button was located several hours later and photographed. And that when it was finally collected a couple of months later it was in a different location and had been chipped.
 
An interesting decision from the ECHR from 12 Dec. 2014, Tymoshenko v Ukraine 65656/12. This was a friendly settlement; Ukraine agreed it had violated Yuliya Tymoshenko's Convention rights. The same could happen with Italy admitting it violated Amanda Knox's rights in wrongfully convicting her of calunnia. Note that in the Tymoshenko case there is an acknowledged abuse of the criminal system of justice. Ring a bell?

Thanks to Flipp at IIP forum for pointing out this friendly settlement decision.

Excerpt:

FACTS AND PROCEDURE

The applicant, Ms Yuliya Volodymyrivna Tymoshenko, is a Ukrainian national, who was born in 1960 and lives in Kyiv. She was represented before the Court by Mr S. Vlasenko, a lawyer practising in Kyiv.

The Ukrainian Government (“the Government”) were represented by their then Agent, Mr N. Kulchytskyy.

The applicant raised several complaints under Articles 6, 7 and 13 of the Convention. She also complained, under Article 18 of the Convention, that the criminal case against her had been politically inspired and constituted an abuse of the criminal system of justice. Furthermore, the case raised also a number of issues under Articles 3 and 8, Article 10 taken in conjunction with Article 18 of the Convention and under Article 4 of Protocol No. 7.

On 10 June 2013 the application was communicated to the Government.

After unsuccessful friendly-settlement negotiations, by letter dated 7 May 2014, the Government informed the Court that they proposed to make a declaration with a view to resolving the issues raised by the application.

The Government, admitting that the criminal prosecution against the applicant had been politically motivated, acknowledged a violation of the applicant’s rights guaranteed by Articles 3, 6, 7, 8 and 13 in connection with Article 8 of the Convention, Article 18 in connection with Articles 6, 8 and 10 of the Convention, and Article 4 of Protocol No. 7. They further informed the Court about various measures taken as a consequence of the violations which they admitted that had occurred in the applicant’s case. The Government finally requested the Court to strike out the application.

On 10 June 2014, the Court received a letter from the applicant informing the Court that she had agreed to the terms of the Government’s declaration.
 
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This may be old hat, but it is new hat for me, google translate of Raffaele's statement.

Police of Perugia
Flying Squad
General Affairs Area
SUBJECT: Minutes of summary information from person informed of the facts made by:
REMINDER Raffaele, already widespread.
On 05 November 2007 at 22:40 hours, at the offices of the Flying Squad of the Police of Perugia. First to the undersigned Judicial Police Officers Sost. Comm. NAPOLEONI Monica, Isp. Chief Antonio V. FACCHINI Sov. Daniele MOSCATELLI, Asst. Chief Hector FIRE is present is present in the named object which, in addition to the statements made on November at these offices, on the facts for which investigation, declares as follows:
A.D.R. Amanda know about two weeks. From the same evening when I met her she started to sleep at my house.
A.D.R. The day November 1 U.S. I woke up at about 11.00, I had breakfast with Amanda then she came out and I went back to bed. Then about 13-14 hours I reached her house. In fact there was also Meredih. We had lunch together and I while Amanda Meredith has not
ate with us.
A.D.R. Meredith towards 16.00 is out hastily without saying where he was going. Me and Amanda
we remained at home until at approximately 17:30 to 18:00.
ADR We came out from the house, we went into the center, but do not remember what we did.
ADR, We were in the center from 18:00 until 20:30 / 21:00. 21:00 I went to my house alone, while Amanda told me that she would go to the pub Le Chic because
wanted to meet his friends,
ADR At this point we said goodbye I headed to my house while she is direct
towards the center.
A.D.R. I went home alone, I sat at the computer and I got high. Certainly I had dinner but can not remember what he ate. At about 23.00 pm he called me, on 'user 075.9660789 stares of my house, my father. In fact I remember Amanda yet
had not returned.
ADR I sailed to the computer for about two hours after the call from my father and I stopped
only when Amanda came back presumably at approximately 1:00.
ADR not remember how it was dressed and if she was dressed the same way as when we
greeted before dinner.
A.D.R. I do not remember if we consumed that evening intercourse.
A.D.R. The next morning at 10:00 am we woke up, she told me she wanted
go home to shower and change clothes.
A.D.R. Indeed towards 10.30 is out and I went back to sleep.
A.D.R. When you exit the morning to go to his house, Amanda also took an empty envelope,
telling me that he would have served to put the dirty clothes.
A.D.R. At about 11.30 am returned home and I remember that he had changed his clothes; had with him the bag to his usual .---------------------------------
ADRNon are aware of the contents of her purse .----------------

ADR remember that we went straight to the kitchen, we sat down, and we talked for a while ', perhaps we had breakfast. In fact Amanda told me that when she arrived at her house she found the front door wide open, and traces of blood in the small bathroom and asked me if it seemed strange. I answered yes and I also recommended to call her friends. She told me she phoned Filomena, while Meredith said he did not
answered.
ADRVerso 12.00 we came out of the house, along Corso Garibaldi, we arrived at Piazza Grimana, then we went to the parking lot of St. Anthony and arrived at the home of
Amanda. To make the journey it took us about 10 minutes.
ADR soon as we arrived she opened the door with the keys, I went inside and I noticed that the door of Filomena was all wide open with the glass on the floor and his room was a mess. The bedroom door Amanda was open and I noticed that everything was in order. Then I went to the door of Meredith and saw that it was locked, before doing this I looked to see if it was true what I had told Amanda about the blood inside the bathroom. In fact, I entered and I noticed that there were drops of blood on the sink and on the mat instead I noticed that there was something strange, a sort of mixed water and blood, the rest of the bathroom was clean.
A.D.R. I went into the kitchen I saw that everything was in order, then I walked around the rest of the house, went to the room of Laura and I noticed that everything was in order. Just then Amanda entered the big bathroom, adjacent to the kitchen, and came out scared and hugged me stronger, telling me that before, when he took a shower, had seen the feces within the
water, but now the water was clean.
ADR I just had a quick look inside the bathroom, trusting what I was saying
Amanda.
A.D.R. At that point I wondered what was going on, I left the house to look for the bedroom window of Meredith to see if I could climb. I went outside along with Amanda and she tried to climb, I have immediately blocked telling her not to do it because it was dangerous. Then I told Amanda that the best solution was to break down the door, I tried to kick and shouldered, but I could not open it. Then I called my sister to the phone and I have advised on what I could do, she being a Lieutenant of Police. My sister told me to call 112, which I did, but in the meantime came the Police
Zip.
A.D.R. I have reported in the previous report of ****, because she had convinced me of his version of the facts and I have not thought about the inconsistencies. I heard the first statements that he
made to the Postal Police, intervened on the spot.
A.D.R. She usually always brings with it a large bag that also had the evening of November 1.
The tax inspectors acknowledge that the record is closed at 03:30 on 6 November 2007. '
 
An interesting decision from the ECHR from 12 Dec. 2014, Tymoshenko v Ukraine 65656/12. This was a friendly settlement; Ukraine agreed it had violated Yuliya Tymoshenko's Convention rights. The same could happen with Italy admitting it violated Amanda Knox's rights in wrongfully convicting her of calunnia. Note that in the Tymoshenko case there is an acknowledged abuse of the criminal system of justice. Ring a bell?

Thanks to Flipp at IIP forum for pointing out this friendly settlement decision.

Excerpt:

Thanks for posting this Numbers. This alternative route procedure for resolving violations committed by the authorities of Member countries is something we all ned to be aware of.
 
Shouldn't you mention that Charles shirt was torn and bloody and the chief forensics investigator even pointed out that one of the buttons was missing, torn from the shirt with part of the cloth. And that this button was located several hours later and photographed. And that when it was finally collected a couple of months later it was in a different location and had been chipped.

Slightly revised version

We have a small house in North Carolina, John and Charles live in the small house. Just best friends, not lovers, they have shared the house for several years.

One day Charles with his girlfriend Lea come home and find John murdered. They find John in his bedroom. It is a bloody crime scene where John appears to have been stabbed. Lea does not live in the home but has visited a number of times.

They call the police. It is a small town North Carolina and the police do not do a good job at the crime scene. They do find shoe prints and finger prints in blood in the bedroom. They initially try to link the shoe prints with Charles or Lea but they do not own the shoes. The finger prints also do not match either one. There is some DNA on John's wallet (which is empty) but it also does not seem to match either Charles or Lea.

The cops still think that Charles and Lea are responsible. If John is dead, the house goes to Charles and he and Lea can move in there together. There is a broken door in the back but the police think it was faked.

The police go back into the house over a month later. When they get there, the back door which had previous been broken is found wide open. Still, the police search in the hopes of finding additional evidence.

In John's room, from the floor, they collect a button which is off of John's shirt. It had been photographed in the previous search but not collected at that time. When found in the second search, it is found in not the location in the original photograph. It is also chipped while it had not been originally.

When they collect the button, they are not especially careful, handling it with gloves that have handled other objects. They hand it between each other as well. They also place it back on the floor to photograph it.

The button is DNA tested in the State crime lab and it is found to have the victims, Lea's (but not Charles) at a very low level, and three unknown DNA patterns at a very low level as well.

Is this evidence of guilt or contamination?
 
This may be old hat, but it is new hat for me, google translate of Raffaele's statement.

Police of Perugia
Flying Squad
General Affairs Area
SUBJECT: Minutes of summary information from person informed of the facts made by:
REMINDER Raffaele, already widespread.
On 05 November 2007 at 22:40 hours, at the offices of the Flying Squad of the Police of Perugia. First to the undersigned

...

The tax inspectors acknowledge that the record is closed at 03:30 on 6 November 2007. '



That's almost 5 whole hours! You've got maybe ten minutes of material tops. Where's the rest of what was said durring that time?
 
That's almost 5 whole hours! You've got maybe ten minutes of material tops. Where's the rest of what was said durring that time?
Overlap with Amanda being shocked to be hit twice on the back of the head by complete surprise without seeing her assailant (as a friendly witness), of course, I assume a lot is covered in his book.
 
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I don't see any sense in the discourse above.
The floor is dirty on Dec. 17. The bra clasp is dirty when located on Dec. 17.
These truths have an implication => the glove will get dirty on picking the clasp.



This statement has an implication, that isif there was no stockpile of disposable tweezers available, the problem has no solution.
Unless there is a stockpile of disposable tools there's no solution; so if there is no stockpile of tweezers, there is nothing else to do.

However, the "problem" may be very petty, basically non-existent; since in fact the room was already rummaged into and not clean, and thus the reasoning could be reversed to draw the opposite conclusion: the observation that the room was already not clean would make the use of disposable tweezers useless.


But they didn't use their gloves to pick up other items. By "items" I mean evidentiary items, or items that may have a tight correlation with Raffaele Sollecito.



Correct.



There are some bit that require correction in this description.
First, the "trampling around the cottage" should not be taken ad litteram, because those who entered Meredith room did not trample into the other rooms, except the corridoor.

But a more relevant factual datum is that it is false that someone stepped on the clasp and crushed one of the hooks. This never happened: the hook was already crooked when it was spotted first on Nov. 3, as the pictures from Nov. 3 show.

However, this still is not all that needs to be said. In fact, the dirty scene, but even an alleged trampling around and stepping on the hook, won't change the basic picture. Even those alleged (never happened) events wouldn't make the presence of Sollecito's DNA on the clasp become likely. Not even in a remote figure.

There was no DNA of Sollecito's on the cottage floor. More than 20 DNA samples were taken from the cottage floor, including the area close to Meredith's door, and no trace of Sollecito's DNA was found.
All those had been trampled upon, since many were picked on Dec. 18, yet there is no DNA of him in none of them.
The alleged forensic should have trampled in a large pool of Sollecito's DNA picked it up on his/her sole and brought it everywhere around, in order to make the finding on the bra clasp become somehow possible, even though in a tiny, remote statistical figure.
Where is the source of Sollecito's fluids, where is the pool where the forensic stepped and picked up the bioogical cells?
Nothing like that was found on the scene. No evidence or clue about the existence of this source of contaminating agent.



Chuzpah is not going to take your argument very far.



This is no argument. Ad for what Halkides called the "Axiom N. 1" of DNA analysis, the dating of a DNA trace can never be inferred from the properties of the genetical material itself.
You cannot use the presence of some alleles or some profiles in order to draw inference about the origin of other DNA material.

This then extends to the question of why wear gloves? I do not know what is standard in Italy, but elsewhere the DNA of the scene of crime investigators and forensic scientists is on record so there is no real need to prevent them contaminating evidence.

Not ideal but this gives a brief summary of key issues.
http://www.enfsi.eu/sites/default/f...idance_document_for_best_practice_manuals.pdf

Points of interest:

All of appendix 1

"the use of the correct protective clothing and disposable equipment"

"the principle that after material has been recovered, packaged and sealed it must only be re-opened under controlled conditions and preferably not before laboratory examination" cf the knife being repackaged at the police station.
 
Sorry to butt in but it's been several pages since I reminded everyone there is no evidence of any DNA on the clasp since Stefanoni destroyed it. There is only uncorroborated evidence from her (a witness prone to 'understandable lapses of memory') claiming there was DNA on the clasp. Not quite the same thing.

You may now resume the discussion. Thank you.
 
That's almost 5 whole hours! You've got maybe ten minutes of material tops. Where's the rest of what was said durring that time?


And as has long been understood, it's clear that Sollecito is indeed confusing the night of 1st November with the previous night, 31st October. For one thing, his description of events and movements correlates perfectly with the known movements of Knox and Sollecito on 31st October. And for another thing, his account is directly contradicted by known events on 1st November, most notably the computer interactions and the fact that Popovic spoke with Knox when she (Popovic) called round at around 8.45pm.

Only a fool or a knave would take away from this transcript the "fact" that Sollecito was giving an accurate account of the events of 1st November (and that he subsequently changed his story when he realised that it implicated Knox and, to a degree, himself). Instead, a rational, sceptical analysis of the transcript leads to the strong conclusion that Sollecito had become (with the "help" of the police) confused between evenings, and had grafted actual events from earlier on the 1st (going over to the cottage and having lunch etc) with events from the evening/night of 31st October (when Knox went to a Halloween party without Sollecito).
 
Now, the probabilities.



No, it's not a matter of proving it. It's a matter of proving that it's probable.

What is the probability of tertiary transfer of skin cells through drying hands on a towel and then touching an item, and transfer the DNA there, and specifically there.

You know because, if we argue about what's in rerum natura, we should know it is possible to buy a lottery ticket and win. But it is not reasonable to expect this will happen. What's just possible is not exactly what you need to dismiss a piece of evidence. You need much more than that.

Based on the same logic - probable as winning a lottery ticket - a defence lawyer could argue that each finding of Rudy Guede's DNA in the murder room was due to innocent reasons, a tertiary transfer of the same kind or another innocent reason. And there are only four instances of Guede's DNA in the room, some of them even only yielding a compatible Y-chromosome and no X profile.

Based on a reasoning in rerum natura, a defence lawyer may also argue that bruises on the victim's vagina had innocent reasons not related to sexual violence.

Obviously, no judge would consider such arguments.

The arguments above mean just failure to understanding anything about how evidence works.



It doesn't matter at all what you think of Stefanoni. There is simply no evidence of the contamination claimed by the defence.



Not me, but the defence should tell her, and they should tell her during the incidente probatorio. Or they should explain the judge clearly what they need to do with the data, what their theory of contamination is. Something the defence did not do. We all know the defence did not submit such requests of seeing raw data of DNA tests, there is no trace of such instance in the preliminary hearing, in the defence appeals reasons nor in requests to the supreme court.

But the problem is this presupposes they knew the results of the tests before they were done!

The situation is a little different. To exaggerate the counter argument, having won the lottery what is the chance you bought a winning ticket? The question is having found a single minuscule (low copy) DNA sample mixed with the DNA of other unidentified individuals on the bra hook after it has been moved around the room, found laying under a rug, been picked up, handed around, put down, picked up again then sent for testing; how likely is that to be a result of secondary or tertiary transfer? Alternatively how certain can you be that the DNA on the bra hook can only result from the bra being directly handled by Sollecito during the murder? Finally what is the difference between the isolates of DNA from other individuals found on the bra hook that allows one to conclude these are the results of innocent transfer whilst the isolate of DNA from Sollecito results beyond reasonable doubt from his participation in a crime?
 
Sorry to butt in but it's been several pages since I reminded everyone there is no evidence of any DNA on the clasp since Stefanoni destroyed it. There is only uncorroborated evidence from her (a witness prone to 'understandable lapses of memory') claiming there was DNA on the clasp. Not quite the same thing.

You may now resume the discussion. Thank you.


Very true. However one has to overcome the "judicial truth" problem: the various courts in Italy have shown worrying (and wholly improper) tendencies to accept uncritically the word of prosecutors at face value. That's the real problem to be overcome here.....
 
But the problem is this presupposes they knew the results of the tests before they were done!

The situation is a little different. To exaggerate the counter argument, having won the lottery what is the chance you bought a winning ticket? The question is having found a single minuscule (low copy) DNA sample mixed with the DNA of other unidentified individuals on the bra hook after it has been moved around the room, found laying under a rug, been picked up, handed around, put down, picked up again then sent for testing; how likely is that to be a result of secondary or tertiary transfer? Alternatively how certain can you be that the DNA on the bra hook can only result from the bra being directly handled by Sollecito during the murder? Finally what is the difference between the isolates of DNA from other individuals found on the bra hook that allows one to conclude these are the results of innocent transfer whilst the isolate of DNA from Sollecito results beyond reasonable doubt from his participation in a crime?


And of course this, all by itself, is an incredibly persuasive argument that the clasp was indeed contaminated by specs of transferred DNA that were washing around in that dust and debris pile. As I said earlier, it would have been awfully interesting if other items in that pile had also been DNA tested as controls - I strongly suspect that the DNA of Sollecito and/or the other unidentified individuals would also have shown up on some of those items. But of course that sort of test wasn't done by not-a-real-doctor* Stefanoni


* Oh and I know that Stefanoni is a "doctor" (Dottoressa) by the standards of her own country. However she's not a doctor by the generally accepted international standards used in academia. She hasn't completed the postgraduate study required, nor apparently has she had a doctoral thesis submitted and evaluated. Think of it a bit like Idi Amin styling himself a Field Marshall in the Ugandan army. Yes, he's entitled (by the "laws" of his country) to call himself a Field Marshall (and woe betide anyone at the time who questioned his rank!), but by the standards of international military recognition, he obviously wasn't a real Field Marshall :D
 
Yes, if you have a stockpile of 500 disposable tweezers with you.


This surely has to count as one of the most fatuous arguments ever made in this thread (and it's up against some stiff competition!).

Is Machiavelli seriously suggesting that crime scene forensics investigators should not be expected to be carrying sterile tweezers (as well as sterile bags etc) in their kit when they go to examine crime scenes and collect forensic evidence? And what's all this nonsense about a "stockpile of 500". Total paucity of intellectual honesty is what it is: by setting up a straw man of suggesting that the forensics team would have had to have been carrying such a ludicrously large amount.

The facts are clear: a dedicated forensics examination team absolutely ought to have had a number of sterile single-use tweezers in their kit. If they did not, then they were incompetent and unfit for purpose to start with. If they did have sterile tweezers, but either forgot or neglected to use them where required, then they were also incompetent (or worse).
 
Sorry to butt in but it's been several pages since I reminded everyone there is no evidence of any DNA on the clasp since Stefanoni destroyed it. There is only uncorroborated evidence from her (a witness prone to 'understandable lapses of memory') claiming there was DNA on the clasp. Not quite the same thing.

You may now resume the discussion. Thank you.

For discussion purposes, I pretend that there really was Raff's DNA on the bra clasp even if it is questionable.

Have noticed that the pro guilt side will lie because I read this from one of them:

A number of independent forensic experts - Dr. Patrizia Stefanoni, Dr. Renato Biondo, Professor Giuesppe Novelli, Professor Francesca Torricelli, Luciano Garofano, Elizabeth Johnson and Greg Hampikian - have all confirmed that Meredith’s DNA was on the blade.Sollecito knew that Meredith’s DNA was on the blade which is why he lied about accidentally pricking her hand whilst cooking.

I know at least the two highlighted said / wrote no such thing
http://news.discovery.com/human/genetics/dna-evidence-knox-trial-111004.htm
 
This surely has to count as one of the most fatuous arguments ever made in this thread (and it's up against some stiff competition!).

Is Machiavelli seriously suggesting that crime scene forensics investigators should not be expected to be carrying sterile tweezers (as well as sterile bags etc) in their kit when they go to examine crime scenes and collect forensic evidence? And what's all this nonsense about a "stockpile of 500". Total paucity of intellectual honesty is what it is: by setting up a straw man of suggesting that the forensics team would have had to have been carrying such a ludicrously large amount.

The facts are clear: a dedicated forensics examination team absolutely ought to have had a number of sterile single-use tweezers in their kit. If they did not, then they were incompetent and unfit for purpose to start with. If they did have sterile tweezers, but either forgot or neglected to use them where required, then they were also incompetent (or worse).

Maybe they should have used some of that money they spent on the animation on buying disposable tweezers? :eek:
 
Why di you talk about "20"? I can only count about 5 or 6.



This is complete hypocrisy. Reputation is not just a matter of friends, it's a public matter, and it's like any other good: it needs to be defendend from thieves. Reputation may even not be at trisk in practice, yet still on principle it is good when one shows the will to defend it. Is there a reason why one should abstain from defending something that belongs to him?
No. There is no reason why Mignini should refrain from sueing those who he thinks are particularly vicious liars.

Does this argument cut both ways?
 
Absolutely not. Hellmann cannot be reinstated. Under no condition. Hellmann judgement and trial is null, it doesn't exist as a valid document from the justice system, and can't be saved.

At this stage the Cassazione could only order a further Appeal on particular points (such as for example the position of Sollecito alone) but this will not happen in my opinion.

I don't know whether to take this seriously. The March 2013 ISC decision was blatantly illegal, and the pretexts put forward in the motivation document have no validity. It was the biggest single scandal in this whole disgraceful saga.

Whether the next ISC panel have the scope to reverse the 2013 decision is an interesting question. Of course, I guess it will remain a theoretical one, since in all probability (in my view) they will go along with the existing trajectory of the case and rubber-stamp the Nencini verdict, nonsense as it is.

But there can be no doubt that the ECtHR will take an interest in the behaviour of the 2013 ISC, and list their actions among the breaches perpetrated in this case.
 
This is superficial. Indeed evidence has been dealt with directly in many cases. Any kind of evidence, from witnesses to scientific evidence, including DNA. For example in the Peruzzi case Vecchiotti and Dalla Piccola disputed over the attribution of a DNA profile. In the Cesaroni murder case, experts disputed over the attribution of a bite mark.
Here it seems the defence wants to argue that there was contamination of the bra clasp from Sollecito's DNA originating from another source, and contamination of the kitchen knife with Meredith's DNA via unspecified path.
There is nothing supported nor specific in these claims. Simply there is no element of evidence in reality that the defence can bring for their claim.

So what the defence does instead, and what the pro-Knoxes do here, is to change target and dispute over procedure and about Stefanoni rather than about the DNA profiles, how they got there. But you can't substitute a direct dispute about the evidence findings by a talk about procedures. Discussion about procedures and quality is indirect argumentation and does nor replace an argument about evidence.

All of this to maintain the pretence that the accusers' so-called evidence is not to be subject to scrutiny, because they are "not on trial".

Machiavelli, you have no credibility on this point. Procedure is everything when it comes to scientific evidence. And it's not difficult even for a layman to see that the procedures (or perhaps, lack of procedure) followed by Stefanoni's team in this case make all of their evidence completely worthless.
 
Now, the probabilities.



No, it's not a matter of proving it. It's a matter of proving that it's probable.
What is the probability of tertiary transfer of skin cells through drying hands on a towel and then touching an item, and transfer the DNA there, and specifically there.

You know because, if we argue about what's in rerum natura, we should know it is possible to buy a lottery ticket and win. But it is not reasonable to expect this will happen. What's just possible is not exactly what you need to dismiss a piece of evidence. You need much more than that.

Based on the same logic - probable as winning a lottery ticket - a defence lawyer could argue that each finding of Rudy Guede's DNA in the murder room was due to innocent reasons, a tertiary transfer of the same kind or another innocent reason. And there are only four instances of Guede's DNA in the room, some of them even only yielding a compatible Y-chromosome and no X profile.

Based on a reasoning in rerum natura, a defence lawyer may also argue that bruises on the victim's vagina had innocent reasons not related to sexual violence.

Obviously, no judge would consider such arguments.

The arguments above mean just failure to understanding anything about how evidence works.



It doesn't matter at all what you think of Stefanoni. There is simply no evidence of the contamination claimed by the defence.



Not me, but the defence should tell her, and they should tell her during the incidente probatorio. Or they should explain the judge clearly what they need to do with the data, what their theory of contamination is. Something the defence did not do. We all know the defence did not submit such requests of seeing raw data of DNA tests, there is no trace of such instance in the preliminary hearing, in the defence appeals reasons nor in requests to the supreme court.

Mach, I think you (and the Italian courts on Chieffi's decision) are misunderstanding the nature of contamination in regards to DNA testing.

Contamination is always present, we don't live in a vacuum in space, but awash in an ocean of biological matter.

A purpose of any DNA finding is to show that contamination is not a factor in the result, or a low enough factor so as to demonstrate the reliable attribution of a sample.

IIUC, that's the purpose of the negative and positive controls, sample size, and replicable results to show its not a one off accident.

In this case, Stef was not using internationally recognized protocols, performed single tests for the two purportedly incriminating results against Amanda and Raf (knife and bra clasp), misrepresented the sample size in court, concealed her control samples and other data, and claimed she never had contamination in her lab.

One must also consider the context, in comparing this minute result from Raf on the bra clasp to all the samples found from Rudy.

It's not just the sample size that should disqualify the finding on the bra-clasp as regards to incriminating Raf, it the lack of any other evidence of any kind of his presence in the room, or at the cottage at the time Meredith was attacked.

Where as Rudy's footsteps are in Meredith's wet blood, his fingerprints in wet blood, his DNA in multiple locations, on and in her body, and on her purse, and he talks about how much money she had and where, with money missing. And Rudy admits he was there, in the room, stepping in her wet blood. He just tells a crazy story that tries to deny his own guilt, and quite different from the first story he is recorded having told to his friend on skype while on the run in germany, when he said Amanda had nothing to do with it and didn't know Raf at all.

The knife blade sample that supposedly shows Meredith's DNA was taken from a "scratch" on the blade no one else could see, finding a DNA sample of Meredith that no one else could be confident existed, and defies common sense.

The bra clasp sample was a mixed result in such small quantity, accompanied by multiple other contributors, and there no reason for this finding to be more incriminating against Raf than against any of the rest of them. The finding is in question because of the circumstances of collection and the documented problems, and lack of documentation at the lab. And it is unsupported by any other contextual evidence of Raf's presence. And Dr Peter Gill has said it is the type of profile result he would expect to see from a contamination event.

You're just blindly clinging to these false results, as you blindly cling to this wrongful conviction.

You don't get to make up scientific standards, nor does any judge any wherein the world. It's a clear miscarriage of justice. I hope Italy saves themselves further disgrace by annulling these false convictions of amanda and Raf in MArch, and exonerates them as early as possible.
 
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