Continuation Part 13: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Man, that was exciting.

Why are you just copying and pasting previous posts you made? Are you that lost? I already responded to this.



So you DIDN'T EVEN READ the abstract of the paper I linked to and you're talking about a completely different topic regarding digestion for some inexplicable reason? Read the paper from wiley.com, I urge you. Its experimental results prove that Amanda could not have been at the cottage at Meredith's time of death. Why the hell did you refer to the scientific journal article anyway if your entire point was a response to Rolfe? I find it far more likely you didn't understand anything and now you're pretending like you were talking about something else.

If you want to talk about the state of digestion within the stomach, I suggest you take it up with Rolfe since that wasn't even what I was talking about. Take a vacation from "cartwheel world", platanov, and we can get on the same page hopefully.


:)
Ah I see the problem. This is kinda’ complex so I will go slowly.
I was talking about 2 different things in the last 2 or 3 posts directed at you.
Let me say that again. I was addressing 2 different issues in the same post. Mad isn’t it.

I even split your post into 2 parts in my last reply (That should have been a large clue).
You will find that posters here often address more than 1 [one] issue in a post.
It might be 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 or 6. You get the idea. In my case it was 2 different issues. I will leave you to work out what they were.

Now I think we have achieved all we can here. But remember some posts address more that 1 issue.
Watch out for that.
 
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Bill Williams said:
It is, quite frankly, unbelievable you would argue like this. What innocenters worldwide will say about your argument is: "Go for it Machiavelli: you just proved that the clasp was contaminated before Stefanoni picked it up!"

I cannot believe you are doing this.

But... contaminated by what contaminating agent?
This is old discussion points.

I am begging you, Machiavelli..... keep going in this train of thought.

Sooner or later someone embedded in the pro-guilt-lobby is going to beg you to stop. But please do not, repeat, do not listen to them.

You are not arguing that the bra-clasp was contaminated by Stefanoni's obviously dirty glove. Forget the glove, acc. to you, the clasp was pre-contaminated!

This is a compleat jaw dropper, Machiavelli. Please keep going.
 
But... contaminated by what contaminating agent?
This is old discussion points.


By the huge amount of detritus on the sweepings on the floor, among which the clasp had been resting for several weeks before its miraculous "discovery" in mid-December.

Bearing in mind the extremely low levels of DNA we are talking about, it's more than possible that (for example) some of Sollecito's DNA from the outer face of the bedroom door could have found its way onto the floor (via a discarded glove or by tertiary transfer via another object in the room). Once all the dirt and detritus on the floor had been swept up and hidden under that rug, it was ideal circumstances for cross-contamination to occur. I wouldn't mind betting that if other pieces from that dust/debris pile had been DNA tested, some of them might also have shown tiny quantities of Sollecito's DNA.

Frankly, the whole way in which the clasp was treated - from the inexplicable way in which they failed to collect it properly in the first forensic sweep, through the way in which it was swept around in a critical area of the crime scene, through to the way it was "discovered", handled, collected and stored - is laughable malpractice. I suspect that the clasp would have been deemed unreliable and/or inadmissible in any proper court.
 
I am begging you, Machiavelli..... keep going in this train of thought.

Sooner or later someone embedded in the pro-guilt-lobby is going to beg you to stop. But please do not, repeat, do not listen to them.

You are not arguing that the bra-clasp was contaminated by Stefanoni's obviously dirty glove. Forget the glove, acc. to you, the clasp was pre-contaminated!

This is a compleat jaw dropper, Machiavelli. Please keep going.

There are so many possibilities of where and how the clasp might have been contaminated -- it's almost endless. But for some reason, per Mach and the Italian courts, the defense is supposed to prove when and where it was contaminated!! :jaw-dropp
 
By the huge amount of detritus on the sweepings on the floor, among which the clasp had been resting for several weeks before its miraculous "discovery" in mid-December.

Bearing in mind the extremely low levels of DNA we are talking about, it's more than possible that (for example) some of Sollecito's DNA from the outer face of the bedroom door could have found its way onto the floor (via a discarded glove or by tertiary transfer via another object in the room). Once all the dirt and detritus on the floor had been swept up and hidden under that rug, it was ideal circumstances for cross-contamination to occur. I wouldn't mind betting that if other pieces from that dust/debris pile had been DNA tested, some of them might also have shown tiny quantities of Sollecito's DNA.

Frankly, the whole way in which the clasp was treated - from the inexplicable way in which they failed to collect it properly in the first forensic sweep, through the way in which it was swept around in a critical area of the crime scene, through to the way it was "discovered", handled, collected and stored - is laughable malpractice. I suspect that the clasp would have been deemed unreliable and/or inadmissible in any proper court.

It is like Machiavellian is almost there but just cannot get over that last step.
 
It depends. Theoretically it is possible that parts of Nencini judgement are annulled. But the annulment of Nencini would re-instate Massei and the points of appeal, that is still an unfavorable status for the defence.

Compared to a confirmation of Nencini, it sounds like a good outcome. Although IIUC, the defendants would be in the same position of appealing from Massei's conviction.

Although cassation could also clarify points to be considered. For example, that the finding from Guede's trial that 'Rudy killed Meredtih along with others', is not binding on a new appeal trial, because the fact was never contested at trial, only stipulated by Rudy's lawyers and the prosecution, but Amanda and Raf never had the opportunity to dispute it.

And that Rudy's testimony could not be used against Amanda and Raf, unless he were made available to cross examination. (By the way, Rudy changing his story to claim that he saw Amanda outside the cottage, and Raf inside the cottage, if that statement by Rudy were false, would that not be a classic case of calunnia - falsely accusing another whom he knows to be innocent, in an effort to deflect attention from his own guilt?

And also, that the DNA evidence of the knife and the bra clasp has ben sufficiently impeached by Conti and Vechiotti, because otherwise, the retest of the last sample on the knife could not be considered "decisive"?

And, that the knife from sollecito's kitchen has been eliminated from evidence, since there is nothing tying it to the murder? (tested negative for blood, the finding of Meredith's DNA has been proven unreliable, and there is starch on the knife, establishing that it has not been cleaned.

And that Curatolo must be considered discredited, since the last, higher court to hear him found him to be not credible.

In a nutshell, cassation could order a retrial, with so many evidentiary restrictions that have destroyed the credibility and validity in the previous proceedings, in combination with Dr Gill and other expert analysis of the deficiencies in Stefanoni's work, that the outcome could be virtually guaranteed to result in acquittal?

This too is a theoretical possibility.

Sollecito's TV appearance is I believe, an indication that the judiciary is getting ready to let Amanda and Raf go back to their normal lives. They've carried the water being used as scapegoats, they've been good sports, its not fair to steal their whole lives, is it?

We'll see in March, I suppose. I understand you take a different view. I just can't understand how anyone could support this miscarriage of justice.

I can't imagine Italy wants this case on their conscience, anymore than the Egyptian courts wanted the 3 journalists on their plate. International opinion matters. When the head of the European forensics community uses the Kercher case as a text book example of a miscarriage of justice, that has to tell you something. You may not be listening, but I'll bet you many in Italy are, including cassation.
 
It is a logical inference based on the fact that the clasp fabric was described as "dirty", " blackened" or "tarnished" and the floor was "very dirty" too. It is unavoidable and logical that the glove that picked up the bra fabric would get dirty in the very moment it touches it, or even when they lifted the carpet that covered the item. And since it has already touched it, since it is already holding it, the glove fingers must have got dirty with it.
A further information we have, is that the gloves were new, that one was the first item they were picking up.
The whole sequence is actually visible in a video, if you have doubts about timings.

The item and glove were dirty, but not "contaminated with Sollecito's DNA", since contamination would mean secondary transfer of specifically Sollecito's DNA. And you don't see Sollecito's DNA on the glove.

Not if you use sterile forceps (tweezers) as someone pointed out here recently.
 
But... contaminated by what contaminating agent?This is old discussion points.

Question: Mach asks above "What contaminating agent?"
Answer: DNA, in such small amounts as to be trace amounts, from 3 or 4 males who never touched the bra clasp.

Seriously, Mach, why didn't the Nencini court task the forensic experts to identify the 3-4 males (or 2 males and 2 amicas?) whose DNA was on the clasp in trace amounts? Wouldn't identifying them have solved this issue? The court would know it is the trace DNA of Mr. W, X, Y, and Z.
 
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There are so many possibilities of where and how the clasp might have been contaminated -- it's almost endless. But for some reason, per Mach and the Italian courts, the defense is supposed to prove when and where it was contaminated!! :jaw-dropp

I fail to see why that's so unreasonable. All you need is a film of the microscopic filament of DNA twisting through the air and settling on the Himalayas and then you pan out to a distance of several million miles and the mountains turn out to be the clasp. Assuming the defence had nothing to hide, I see no reason why this could not have been done.
 
I fail to see why that's so unreasonable. All you need is a film of the microscopic filament of DNA twisting through the air and settling on the Himalayas and then you pan out to a distance of several million miles and the mountains turn out to be the clasp. Assuming the defence had nothing to hide, I see no reason why this could not have been done.

They could easily have proven how it could have been contaminated, but not prove exactly how.
 
Question: Mach asks above "What contaminating agent?"
Answer: DNA, in such small amounts as to be trace amounts, from 3 or 4 males who never touched the bra clasp.

Seriously, Mach, why didn't the Nencini court task the forensic experts to identify the 3-4 males (or 2 males and 2 amicas?) whose DNA was on the clasp in trace amounts? Wouldn't identifying them have solved this issue? The court would know it is the trace DNA of Mr. W, X, Y, and Z.

Why? Because (almost a) Dr. Stefanoni destroyed the clasp and all material on it. For every other person in the world, evidence of these extra contributors would have been enough to discredit the clasp as meaningful evidence.

No one really needed to I.D. the extra contributors because the clasp should have never made it to court.

It was not until Nencini, page 243, that another jaw dropper got foisted on to the two innocents. I won't repeat it, because I get into trouble.... let's just say that with NO evidence to say so, Nencini said he'd I.D.'ed them, at least in theory. And two of them were "amica".

I think it is about time to send Machiavelli's comments to Cassation and the US State Department.
 
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Why? Because (almost a) Dr. Stefanoni destroyed the clasp and all material on it. For every other person in the world, evidence of these extra contributors would have been enough to discredit the clasp as meaningful evidence.

No one really needed to I.D. the extra contributors because the clasp should have never made it to court.

It was not until Nencini, page 243, that another jaw dropper got foisted on to the two innocents. I won't repeat it, because I get into trouble.... let's just say that with NO evidence to say so, Nencini said he'd I.D.'ed them, at least in theory. And two of them were "amica".

I think it is about time to send Machiavelli's comments to Cassation and the US State Department.

I was reading the Nyki Kish court decisions. . . .I think the trial judge makes some huge leaps of logic but at least it is short not something six hundred or so pages long.
It is baffling just how many pages it takes to explain his logic especially when, with the clasp and the knife, Peter Gill can deal with it in just a few pages.
 
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Question: Mach asks above "What contaminating agent?"
Answer: DNA, in such small amounts as to be trace amounts, from 3 or 4 males who never touched the bra clasp.

Seriously, Mach, why didn't the Nencini court task the forensic experts to identify the 3-4 males (or 2 males and 2 amicas?) whose DNA was on the clasp in trace amounts? Wouldn't identifying them have solved this issue? The court would know it is the trace DNA of Mr. W, X, Y, and Z.

Sollecito's DNA profile is the piece of evidence. This is what needs to be explained and discussed.
Not the rest of it.

I repeat: this is the point of evidence they wish to dispute. Sollecito's DNA on the metal hook, nothing else. The origin of this (itself non-dateable) finding, not the origin of other (themselves non-dateable) findings.

To make a point, the defence needs to explain why this contaminating agent, this profile was on the bra in a circumstance not related to the murder. How it came there for innocent causes, and show why this event is probable.
Was there a large splatter of Sollecito's DNA nearby? The same glove was used to touch something wet with Sollecito's fluids, some close belonging of Sollecito? Is there an identifies source for Sollecito's DNA? Is there a table of probabilities or some equivalent?

However the innocentisti here really seem unable to come to grips with the concept of circumstantial evidence. They believe there is no evidence except DNA in this case, they think pieces of evidence are scientific proof of something, their mental world is too far apart so I have no hope they can understand.
 
Why? Because (almost a) Dr. Stefanoni destroyed the clasp and all material on it. For every other person in the world, evidence of these extra contributors would have been enough to discredit the clasp as meaningful evidence.

No one really needed to I.D. the extra contributors because the clasp should have never made it to court.

It was not until Nencini, page 243, that another jaw dropper got foisted on to the two innocents. I won't repeat it, because I get into trouble.... let's just say that with NO evidence to say so, Nencini said he'd I.D.'ed them, at least in theory. And two of them were "amica".

I think it is about time to send Machiavelli's comments to Cassation and the US State Department.

Nencini did not say he identified the profiles.

In fact he said something quite to the contrary effect: he said it would be irrelevant whose DNA that is. He said their identification and their number wouldn't matter at all.
 
It is a logical inference based on the fact that the clasp fabric was described as "dirty", " blackened" or "tarnished" and the floor was "very dirty" too. It is unavoidable and logical that the glove that picked up the bra fabric would get dirty in the very moment it touches it, or even when they lifted the carpet that covered the item. And since it has already touched it, since it is already holding it, the glove fingers must have got dirty with it.*
A further information we have, is that the gloves were new, that one was the first item they were picking up.*
The whole sequence is actually visible in a video, if you have doubts about timings.

The item and *glove were dirty, but not "contaminated with Sollecito's DNA", since contamination would mean secondary transfer of specifically Sollecito's DNA. And you don't see Sollecito's DNA on the glove.


Stupid post.

But let's blow it up and take a closer look:


It is a logical inference based on the fact that the clasp fabric was described as "dirty", " blackened" or "tarnished" and the floor was "very dirty" too.


Is this to infer that there is a causal relationship between the floor being dirty and the clasp being dirty? There is a common refrain elsewhere on this board that "correlation does not imply causation". Did the floor cause the clasp to become dirty or did the clasp cause the floor to become dirty? We can surmise that the floor being much larger than the clasp, it is probable that more contamination transferred from the floor to the clasp but there would still be some contamination transfering from the clasp to the floor. Can we see the exact spot on the floor where the clasp was found? I seem to recall it being towards the center of the room but everyone examining the clasp have huddled in the corner by the desk for some reason.


It is unavoidable and logical that the glove that picked up the bra fabric would get dirty in the very moment it touches it, or even when they lifted the carpet that covered the item.


This is an amazing observation. Others have even made this same observation and there is a solution to this very problem. The forensics kit includes disposable sterile tweezers that can be used to pick up small items and place them into the evidence bag thus avoiding the contamination issue.

The other part of the statement about Stefanoni's glove getting contaminated the exact moment the carpet is lifted from the clasp would be called "spooky action at a distance" but we are not talking quantum here. Stefanoni was not present when the carpet was lifted. It's the man holding the flashlight that lifted the carpet and he doesn't stop to change his gloves before touching the clasp and handling it when it is passed around. You will of course claim that this doesn't make any differerence because Raffaele's DNA is not supposed to be in that room. But for several days in Noveember and all morning prior to the clasps rediscovery and possibly even on the 13th of November, people were tramping around the cottage wearing those little bootie DNA magnets. And they were wandering in and out of the rooms and through the common areas in those little booties. And nobody changed their booties before entering any room. And somewhere between the first discovery of the clasp on November 3 and the rediscovery of the clasp on December 18, someone stepped on the little clasp and crushed one of the hooks. Raffaele's DNA which is legitimately in the common room is transported into Meredith's room and deposited with this foot that crushed the clasp hook or deposited on the carpet that the man holding the flashlight moved with his glove that he didn't change.


A further information we have, is that the gloves were new, that one was the first item they were picking up.


<SNIP>

We know that Raffaele has both X and Y chromosomes. *Prior to picking up the clasp, Stefanoni is rummaging through the forensics kit and picks up the "X". After handing the clasp off to the flashlight man she comes back with the "Y". There is an excelent photograph where the "Y" is clearly visible on the floor very close to where the clasp was dropped.


The item and *glove were dirty, but not "contaminated with Sollecito's DNA", since contamination would mean secondary transfer of specifically Sollecito's DNA. And you don't see Sollecito's DNA on the glove.


This is implying that Stefanoni's glove was tested for DNA. We need to add this to the list of suppressed DNA results.

Of course, everyone that is paying attention knows that the clasp was not specifically contaminated with Sollecito's DNA. It was contaminated by a mixture that included the DNA from at least 3 males and possibly more. It's too bad that the DNA result from Stefanoni's glove was suppressed. That might have cracked the whole case and told us who really murdered that girl.

Edited by jsfisher: 
Rule 0/12 breach removed.
 
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Yes, if you have a storage of 500 disposable tweezers with you.

Law enforcement agencies in other countries manage it. They come in packs of 100 for about $30.00 USD

Edit: Can get 3000 for $150 USD
http://www.mercymedcare.com/product...wpCmbZLE1dFf-3fKFscJEpN6601fxvBNemRoCOn7w_wcB
Shipped in a single bag so it is not that bulky an item.

Edit-2: pack of 100 for $20 USD
http://www.amazon.com/First-Voice-T...423880204&sr=8-2&keywords=disposable+tweezers
Package weighs 12.8 ounces (lesss than 400 grams)
 
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There are so many possibilities of where and how the clasp might have been contaminated -- it's almost endless. But for some reason, per Mach and the Italian courts, the defense is supposed to prove when and where it was contaminated!! :jaw-dropp

Sollecito's DNA inside Meredith's room is an unusual occurrence. To say the least. It's not something you may expect as a likely finding. Unusual events require an explanation.

Sollecito's DNA on the metal hook of Meredith's bra clasp can be called unusual, but would be an euphemism.

No reasonable judge would assume this finding is a casual result without explanation, just because the scene was dirty.
 
Law enforcement agencies in other countries manage it. They come in packs of 100 for about $30.00 USD

Edit: Can get 3000 for $150 USD
http://www.mercymedcare.com/product...wpCmbZLE1dFf-3fKFscJEpN6601fxvBNemRoCOn7w_wcB
Shipped in a single bag so it is not that bulky an item.

Edit-2: pack of 100 for $20 USD
http://www.amazon.com/First-Voice-T...423880204&sr=8-2&keywords=disposable+tweezers
Package weighs 12.8 ounces (lesss than 400 grams)

You can go and kill somebody there, then.
 
Law enforcement agencies in other countries manage it. They come in packs of 100 for about $30.00 USD
Edit: Can get 3000 for $150 USD
http://www.mercymedcare.com/product...wpCmbZLE1dFf-3fKFscJEpN6601fxvBNemRoCOn7w_wcB
Shipped in a single bag so it is not that bulky an item.

Edit-2: pack of 100 for $20 USD
http://www.amazon.com/First-Voice-T...423880204&sr=8-2&keywords=disposable+tweezers
Package weighs 12.8 ounces (lesss than 400 grams)

But as Mignini explained about not taping the interrogations, they were short of money.

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