Continuation Part 13: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

Status
Not open for further replies.
The editorial department of the show... the artistic direction.... was indeed favorable to Raff.

Raff's performance was quite another matter however: he was evasive, insincere, cocky. He sounded like someone lying.

BTW: this was not just a "major Italian network", it was on Italy's State run premier network.



True. Again: the editorial choices that the show made... the choice to film in his hometown, keeping the interviewees limited to old friends. And it was all indeed favorable to Raff.


Wrong on all counts. Wishful thinking.

Even though Vespa let his skepticism show through, he was, over all, very light on Raff...yet I think anyone watching the show would get the impression Vespa personally believes Raff is guilty.
Honestly this interview was not one of Vespa's better moments... I think he seemed somewhat uninterested.

On the second half of the show he interviewed the opera singer and TV personality Katia Ricciarelli... Ricciarelli and Sollecito... a tired, scrapping-the-bottom-of-the-barrel line up.

Also (as an aside): Vespa cannot be compared to Cuomo. There are no US TV journalists left that can compare to Vespa. The last was probably Mike Wallace.

Vibio - are you insinuating that Bruno Vespa and his staff purposely tried to make Raffaele look innocent with their editorial decisions?

Are you saying that Vespa purposely let Raff off the hook by going light on him, despite the powerful media reputation you say Vespa has?

And despite this, Raffaele still came across as a liar? .... that the editorial choices from such an eminent program still could not save Raffaele despite the shows editorial efforts?

Are you sure there is not just a wee bit of confirmation bias in your post? Just asking.....
 
Last edited:
Rudy's right thumb, forefinger, and finger tips?

Where exactly do you think you see the print? I've been trying to note places where Rudy likely left blood from his fingers/hand. So far, these include: vagina, knife blade imprint, pillow, wall, door handle, bathroom, downstairs, his own apartment. It seems likely that it would be on her pants and jacket as well.

DC - I do see something on the sleeve, over to the right side, that looks like a thumb print. In the middle of the jacket, I also see a square shape that appears to correspond to the belt buckle that can be seen off to the left.

DC - The belt buckle (actually, its a buckle from the belt on the boot) thing is weird. In order for the print to be on the jacket, the buckle first had to have blood on it. Then, the jacket was pressed onto it (or vice versa). But it's kind of strange that the imprint is so defined and not a big blotch--suggests that the amount of blood and contact pressure were limited.

Hi Diocletus, I tried to circle the "hand", and what I thought looked like an index finger. Looking closer, I thought the three round red circles above the index finger might be Rudy's fingertips (imagine Rudy grabbing a handful of the jacket, so its not a print to a flat surface, but form folding to his hand).

Based on your description, I can see that its on the sleeve, and I recall that Rudy's DNA (or finger prints?) were found on the sleeve of this garment (IIRC). So, kind of interesting. btw, how is using Meredith's jacket to wipe up blood of any help to a mortally wounded girl who needs immediate medical attention?
Or, Maybe that's really Mignini dancing with an elephant on a tightrope twirling an umbrella? Here's the pics -

 
btw, how is using Meredith's jacket to wipe up blood of any help to a mortally wounded girl who needs immediate medical attention?

It isn't. To me, this is so simple. Rudy broke in. Meredith came home unexpectedly. Something went terribly wrong. Rudy went nuts and killed her. Then he said, "holy ◊◊◊◊, what do I do now?". Calling an ambulance or even saving her at that point was counter to his own interest. His interest was in not getting caught.
 
From an Italian Forensic Science site, this! (from a few years ago)

A google translation. Original linked.


http://www.sos-scienzeforensi.org/i...icle&id=9:delitto-perugia&catid=14&Itemid=122

The turning point in the appeal against Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, next hearing on July 25, unleashed criticism of the experts against investigations and scientific evidence. Monster of Florence, Unabomber, Cogne, Yellow Garlasco, murder of Marta Russo, crime of Perugia ... just some of the major cases of crime that confirm, along with dozens of stories less known to the public, the decline of Criminal Italian. Autopsies and repeated inspections, investigative practices and laboratory tests peppered with blunders, omissions absurd and fanciful conclusions; expert reports supported by scientific theories outdated and ... judgments.
This is because the police Scientific and Ris Carabinieri to innovation are lagging behind, being devoid of staff able to update through direct knowledge of the latest research in English written by experts Anglo-Saxon, German, Israeli ...

Edoardo Mori, a retired magistrate after he was before the investigating judge, magistrate, and then finally to the courts: "I am asking for an expert opinion to the Scientific or Ris - says the former judge who runs the site where earmi.it collects, among other things, errors and horrors of scientific studies and not - as are those on the health of a joint call for information to the orderly. "Marco Morin, among the world's leading experts in ballistics, "Sometimes the assumptions are based investigative processed by police Digos of expert reports produced by their colleagues in the Scientific." Giuseppe Fortuni, professor of forensic medicine at Bologna with four decades of experience in the field: "Despite all the scientific techniques of investigation are less guilty than before."
And former General Luciano Garofano, long head of Ris of Parma, admits the cultural lag, "The police has made leaps and bounds in the technique of the inspection and the laboratory tests, but much remains to be done. At the crime scene should go only pure specialists that we have not. "

In short, pm and judges have too much confidence in the investigation laboratory tests. And the so-called comparative (advice of the expert witnesses) than to construct alternative tests are directed to "dismantle" incontrovertible certainties deemed by the prosecution. You will not need to find the culprit, but at least, and not cheap, may prevent an innocent end up in jail. Obstinacy pm and allowing judges.
It was said of major cases of crime dotted appraisals wrong. Let's just two areas: the gunshot residue and DNA testing. In the trial against Peter Pacciani, we are in 1992, the Court of Assizes of Florence had asked three so-called experts to check whether a baby doll and a diaper Baby had been used to wrap or clean firearms and if on them there were traces of gunpowder compatible with 22-caliber ammunition (those of the so-called gun monster of Florence, never found).
Responding to the first question the experts attributed to sprint weapon 9mm footprint black formed by two concentric blacks found on the fabric. And part of the consultants had good game in demolishing the expertise in that there was no gun with the barrel 4.5 mm thick, which is capable of leaving an impression like that.
Crime of Perugia.

The courts of appeal trial against Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, who were convicted for the murder of Meredith Kercher, has arrived in recent weeks an expertise that puts a strain on the truths on which was based the decision at first instance. But, unfortunately, the public trust in the so-called scientific evidence able to nail the culprit.
The DNA found on the so-called murder weapon could not be that of the victim, the bra Mez traces were found more males ... The experts concluded by writing: "Do not you followed the international procedures of inspection and protocols collection and sampling. "And then we wonder whether the United States follow the story with an apprehension similar to that harboring towards a process (against an American) celebrated in Sudan or in Malawi.

Because the limit of the scientific evidence is not scientific: if the crime scene did not observe very strict protocols, all laboratory tests are likely to be perfectly useless.

Marco Morin, I thought I recognized that name. He's mentioned in your article as one of the "world's leading experts in ballistics" yet he doesn't want to work in Italian Courts as their forensic standards are so poor:

Christian Science Monitor said:
Finally, as the Knox Case demonstrated, there are also concerns about the use of forensic evidence in court and the judiciary approach to it: "In the United States, federal judges must study a 637-page manual in order to be able to evaluate forensic evidence," Marco Morin, a Venice-based firearms expert who declared he no longer wanted to work in Italian courts, explained in an interview with Il Giornale conservative newspaper. "Here, they accept everything without questioning, as long as it comes from the institutional laboratory."

One of the most outrageous elements of this case is the 'second trip' to the crime scene where the bra clasp was recovered and the luminol hits taken. It's almost unbelievable that any court would recognize forensic evidence from a scene that had been torn apart as badly as this one. All the pictures on the left are what the cottage (and items) looked like during the first trip, shortly after the discovery. The pictures on the right are what it looked like when they got back. How can anyone pretend that things are where they were directly following the murder and that in the process of tearing that place apart they didn't move items and evidence?
 
Sorry for being dim, but how could Italy not at least look like they want to extradite Knox if they confirm the convictions next month?
Is there really a scenario in which they send Sollecito to jail and just... sort of forget about Knox? Seems unlikely to me, given it's all about her anyway.

I'm with you on this. I can't see Italy not having to go through the motions of making a request. I'd be very surprised if they haven't already been quietly informed that such a request won't be satisfied.

But perhaps italy might delay an extradition request, and an order of imprisonment for Raf, if Italy were aware that Amanda's ECHR application had been accepted, thus making it likely (imo) that any new convictions would all be bundled into the same ECHR case.

I'm not an expert here, I'm speculating off of what I've read on the subject. But as I've mentioned, I do have a relative who works in a US state attorney general's office, and I asked him about a year ago what he thought would happen if an extradition request were made.

His thought was that there would somehow be found an endless number of technical defects such that the extradition request would never actually move forward out of the US dept of state.

I found that answer a little sad. Amanda and Raf deserve to have their good names restored, and shouldn't have to wait around for the ECHR to insist. I'm so if its awkward for Italy, but they really screwed the pooch on this one, they really need to hear that, and its their own fault for lighting up an exploding cigar.

But as I say, I don't see a confirmation of conviction coming in March. As per my previous post, my best guess is it gets kicked to United Sessions and delayed for another year, and/or eventually the charges get dismissed on the basis that there is insufficient evidence as a matter of law to support a conviction beyond reasonable doubt.
 
Maybe be a little off topic but discussion of false confessions
http://vimeo.com/86046579

Edit: The Amanda Knox case is noted as an example of false confession
With people of this caliber arguing innocence, she is not going to be extradited.
 
Last edited:
Hi Diocletus, I tried to circle the "hand", and what I thought looked like an index finger. Looking closer, I thought the three round red circles above the index finger might be Rudy's fingertips (imagine Rudy grabbing a handful of the jacket, so its not a print to a flat surface, but form folding to his hand).

Based on your description, I can see that its on the sleeve, and I recall that Rudy's DNA (or finger prints?) were found on the sleeve of this garment (IIRC). So, kind of interesting. btw, how is using Meredith's jacket to wipe up blood of any help to a mortally wounded girl who needs immediate medical attention?
Or, Maybe that's really Mignini dancing with an elephant on a tightrope twirling an umbrella? Here's the pics -

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_6790354da89d5056d3.jpg[/qimg][qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_6790354da8a111cb7f.jpg[/qimg]

I've convinced myself that what you're showing as the tip of the right thumb is actually the from the belt buckle. So, the belt buckle was bloody before the jacket touched it.
 
It isn't. To me, this is so simple. Rudy broke in. Meredith came home unexpectedly. Something went terribly wrong. Rudy went nuts and killed her. Then he said, "holy ◊◊◊◊, what do I do now?". Calling an ambulance or even saving her at that point was counter to his own interest. His interest was in not getting caught.


This scenario is just too simple! What happened to the sex game gone wrong?

Dougm, are you actually implying that a lone male could attack and kill a smallish female without having an accomplice? Has this ever happened before?

Wow! Who would have thought that only one person pulled this off . . .
 
The editorial department of the show... the artistic direction.... was indeed favorable to Raff.

Raff's performance was quite another matter however: he was evasive, insincere, cocky. He sounded like someone lying.

BTW: this was not just a "major Italian network", it was on Italy's State run premier network.



True. Again: the editorial choices that the show made... the choice to film in his hometown, keeping the interviewees limited to old friends. And it was all indeed favorable to Raff.



Wrong on all counts. Wishful thinking.

Even though Vespa let his skepticism show through, he was, over all, very light on Raff...yet I think anyone watching the show would get the impression Vespa personally believes Raff is guilty.

Honestly this interview was not one of Vespa's better moments... I think he seemed somewhat uninterested.

On the second half of the show he interviewed the opera singer and TV personality Katia Ricciarelli... Ricciarelli and Sollecito... a tired, scrapping-the-bottom-of-the-barrel line up.

Also (as an aside): Vespa cannot be compared to Cuomo. There are no US TV journalists left that can compare to Vespa. The last was probably Mike Wallace.

Mike Wallace? WTF! He's not FOX news, but jesus, your impression is he has somehow...credibility? Chalk it up to a cultural divide.

btw, do you think 'Starsky & Hutch' is a realistic depiction of US law enforcement in the 70's? How about 'Columbo'? You have to be getting these ideas from somewhere...

And yes, that Bruno Vespa looked like a hard-on talking to Raf. I wouldn't trust that bloated bloviating blow hard idiot as far as I could throw him.

The best for me though was that wonderful, short, square, little old Italian lady, who puts her hand to her heart, then to her knee to show how long she's known Raf, and says, 'Non, impossible! Never!' or something like that.

I'm sure that many people inside and outside Italy see what I saw.

But glad to see you've finally found common ground with Bill. I find that encouraging, we can all get along!
 
Last edited:
I've convinced myself that what you're showing as the tip of the right thumb is actually the from the belt buckle. So, the belt buckle was bloody before the jacket touched it.

Well now that's a horse race.

It's tough to see these things from a single photograph, plus reconstructing a crumpled fabric print means unfolding it in your mind, super cool stunt and very hard to pull of actually, IUAM.

But suppose you're right? Why so much blood on the belt? What scenario had Rudy making a 'buckle print'?

OTOH, consider the context around the jacket. Streaking on the floor that makes it appear the jacket was used to clean-up the blood, hence creating that streaking pattern. A hand print on the top of it, in a gripping position that would explain the streaking motion of the blood on the floor, seems better grounded in the overall context. Maybe? I dunno.
 
This scenario is just too simple! What happened to the sex game gone wrong?

Dougm, are you actually implying that a lone male could attack and kill a smallish female without having an accomplice? Has this ever happened before?

Wow! Who would have thought that only one person pulled this off . . .

6 out of seven coroners agree!

And the seventh was paid to say "no", by civil parties hoping to steal millions of euro's in a televised ransoming! Ah, Italy, so romantic.
 
This scenario is just too simple! What happened to the sex game gone wrong?

Dougm, are you actually implying that a lone male could attack and kill a smallish female without having an accomplice? Has this ever happened before?

Wow! Who would have thought that only one person pulled this off . . .

Shocking I know! I just find it amazing how people get into analyzing Rudy's story, and the possibility he had a date with her, or if he was trying to save her, etc. The truth is staring us all right in the face. This type of crime happens all over the world, way too often. And 99% of the time, everyone knows who did it. Why some don't this time is the only mystery.
 
Marco Morin, I thought I recognized that name. He's mentioned in your article as one of the "world's leading experts in ballistics" yet he doesn't want to work in Italian Courts as their forensic standards are so poor:



One of the most outrageous elements of this case is the 'second trip' to the crime scene where the bra clasp was recovered and the luminol hits taken. It's almost unbelievable that any court would recognize forensic evidence from a scene that had been torn apart as badly as this one. All the pictures on the left are what the cottage (and items) looked like during the first trip, shortly after the discovery. The pictures on the right are what it looked like when they got back. How can anyone pretend that things are where they were directly following the murder and that in the process of tearing that place apart they didn't move items and evidence?


Did you also happen to catch this rather telling quote in the same piece from Gen Garofano (an erstwhile pro-guilt favourite no less!) about the farcical nature of crime scene forensic investigation in Italy (my bolding):

And former General Luciano Garofano, long head of Ris of Parma, admits the cultural lag, "The police has made leaps and bounds in the technique of the inspection and the laboratory tests, but much remains to be done. At the crime scene should go only pure specialists that we have not."

It's a shocking and manifestly dreadful error that not-a-real-doctor Stefanoni and her crew were let loose on the crime scene in the cottage. They obviously did not know how to do things properly, yet they blustered and blundered on regardless. In the process of course, they compromised, contaminated, destroyed and overlooked (in varying degrees) pretty much ALL the important physical forensic evidence in this critical case. At least they had the decency (hubris?) to videotape their slapdash and harmful efforts, which would be comical if they didn't have such serious implications.
 
incomplete discovery in another case

So it seems that in the Yara case, the prosecution is again playing games with documents: http://translate.google.com/transla.../bossetti-assassino-parente-yara/&prev=search
Diocletus,

From your link: "More or less to this effect: this is what you have in hand, and this is what you can have." This sounds very like what Manuela Comodi said to one reporter about the Knox/Sollecito. Shockingly bad discovery in the case covered in your link. Interesting that Sara Gino is involved in both cases.
 
Last edited:
Diocletus,

From your link: "More or less to this effect: this is what you have in hand, and this is what you can have." This sounds very like what Manuela Comodi said to one reporter about the Knox/Sollecito. Shockingly bad discovery in the case covered in your link. Interesting that Sara Gino is involved in both cases.

On the upside, the defense in the yara case seems attuned to the misconduct that is going on, knows what it doesn't have, and us on top and out in front of it. It's in stark contrast to the kercher case, and I can't help but think, particularly with Sarah Gino involved in both cases, that a lot has been learned in Italy about discovery and suppression in forensics cases, and to some extent, we have Knox and Sollecito to thank for that. Hopefully, the kercher case will end up being the catalyst that propels Italy into modern practice that complies with international standards, Italy's obligations under the echr, and basic concepts of fairness.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom