Continuation Part 13: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Now, in fact he does not accuse Knox, he says he believes she is innocent. But he doesn't defend her. He used to back her alibi, now he doesn't. And while some may think this is a minor change in his position, the fact is that this is going to be the true main point of his legal strategy at the Cassazione recourse.

Sollicito defends (vouches for) her at all times when she was with him and in which he was awake. That is all anyone can expect of a witnesses who vouches for someone over a 20-hour (day/night) period when awake and asleep.

Mach, you write that the ( nuance difference) is the main point in his legal strategy. Is this what the Italian Supreme Court needs to publicly acknowledge his innocence - rather than recognize it for all the right (evidentiary) reasons?

And LondonJohn, next time you spend Christmas eve night at your mother's house, lock your bedroom door! :p
 
Small vs Far Away

........ Or, w.r.t. the case under discussion, one can read a watch/tell the time :)


Please explain


If it’s not already obvious further attempts at clarification would probably be futile.

Anyway, haven’t you already ‘proven’, in Cartwheel world, that the murder happened before 21.20 or 21.10 [with a p value of 0.998 ].
Can Britney move at greater than light speed?
Does RS have narcolepsy?
What happened to the cartoon they watched together that finished at 21.26.

Of course in the real world there are other problems with your resurrected theory (from her testimony – the late dinner and broken pipe etc ) but they needn’t concern us here.
 
I think that if I had been convicted of a murder I did not commit, and was able to go on TV to show people who I am and explain my case, I would do it, for multiple reasons. It's really not confusing at all, unless you are convinced he is guilty and up to some nefarious purpose (like???).

He's innocent, but stands convicted by the most recent court. He wants to get the word out there, in hopes that someone: The public, the media, influential people, and/or the court, might give him a fair hearing on this.

Pro-guilt folk used to say it was obvious Raffaele was guilty, because if he wasn't, why not talk about it? Why not scream from the housetops? After all, that is what THEY would do if innocent of a crime. Now, he speaks out, writes a book, appears in TV interviews, all along saying he is not guilty, and now they are wondering why????
 
If it’s not already obvious further attempts at clarification would probably be futile.

Anyway, haven’t you already ‘proven’, in Cartwheel world, that the murder happened before 21.20 or 21.10 [with a p value of 0.998 ].
Can Britney move at greater than light speed?
Does RS have narcolepsy?
What happened to the cartoon they watched together that finished at 21.26.

Of course in the real world there are other problems with your resurrected theory (from her testimony – the late dinner and broken pipe etc ) but they needn’t concern us here.

None of this makes any sense.
 
If it’s not already obvious further attempts at clarification would probably be futile.

Anyway, haven’t you already ‘proven’, in Cartwheel world, that the murder happened before 21.20 or 21.10 [with a p value of 0.998 ].
Can Britney move at greater than light speed?
Does RS have narcolepsy?
What happened to the cartoon they watched together that finished at 21.26.

Of course in the real world there are other problems with your resurrected theory (from her testimony – the late dinner and broken pipe etc ) but they needn’t concern us here.

Is the debating strategy that, since no one has any idea what you are talking about, you can't be refuted?

Don't tell anyone, but I think it's working. :D
 
I know you addressed this to Vibio, but I'd like to try to answer if you don't mind.

Raffaele's appearance in TV reminds people that he is a human being, and not a sick twisted false caricature invented by an amoral media seeking only profits by ginning up a false controversy at the expense of innocent people's lives.

His presence on TV, just as he is, shows people he is an honest, gentle, intelligent and accomplished person, unfairly maligned by fools and knaves.

That indeed, his ability to simply be polite and articulate, to respond on point to questions and demonstrate the foolishness of his attackers, can help swing public opinion yet more in his favor.

I'd be very surprised if less than 70% of the Italian public believes he had anything to do with the Kercher murder. But VIBIO would know better if there were any up-to-date polls on the matter of Italian public opinion.

And let's be straight here for a minute: scientists did not get convicted for failing to predict an earthquake because the Italian judiciary is immune to public opinion.

When enough people know and believe Amanda and Raf are is innocent, conviction is no longer an option. So have courage, faith and patience, and exoneration is just around the corner. Don't be too sad when it happens, its only right.

Well, if you can convince ‘Raf’ of this that would be a good start.
Apparently he’s not sure where she was – or where he is.
 
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Bill Williams said:
It's why we ask you if you think Raffaele is guilty or not.

It takes either someone completely victimized by their confirmation bias - or seriously stuck on stupid - not to see the double-bind inherent in this. One cannot have it both ways, just to pillory and burn the witch.

One wonders why a man who notes how precise he is, seems to be very selective in applying that renowned precision.

Why wouldn't an innocent-Raffaele throw Amanda under a bus - especially if, as guilters imply, she went out and he knows it? For what reason would an innocent-Raffaele protect a person he knows to be guilty (or very well could be guilty), when he's facing conviction?

What is the rationale these over-precise guilters give for that?

Similarly, why wouldn't a guilty-Raffaele also throw Amanda under a bus - esp. if he could get some reduction in sentence to, say, what Rudy got?

What's the rationale? I now know why some guilters are not interested in narratives. The allegation will suffice, regardless that it doesn't fit any scenario.
 
Sollicito defends (vouches for) her at all times when she was with him and in which he was awake. That is all anyone can expect of a witnesses who vouches for someone over a 20-hour (day/night) period when awake and asleep.

Mach, you write that the ( nuance difference) is the main point in his legal strategy. Is this what the Italian Supreme Court needs to publicly acknowledge his innocence - rather than recognize it for all the right (evidentiary) reasons?

(...)

Well the separation of defensive lines is not a nuance. It's a bit of a structural aspect. What his defensive line says is: I'm not your alibi.
In fact the Sollecito's position - and we are on his last defensive line now - is entirely designed for the event that Knox goes down defiitively. His Florence defence was on this position too. Because this is what his defence team expects.
 
Well, if you can convince ‘Raf’ of this that would be a good start.
Apparently he’s not sure where she was – or where he is.

Do you believe Raffaele is guilty or innocent? You are breaking ranks with both Vibio and Machiavelli in saying that Raffaele has already thrown Knox under a bus. Except, Machiavelli has actually said both things.

Please include a rationale as to why Raffaele still believes Knox to be innocent.
 
The Italians posting here are also.

Maybe there is a little further note: we don't believe you are critical about all issues in the same way. And we can see how little evidence you need to find Rudy Guede guilty of actions there is no evidence; or how little evidence you need against Stefanoni, Mignini, witnesses, judges, doctors, Supreme Court, people and institutions of every kind.

How can you speak for all of the Italians posting here? Did you all get together and agree on said disbelief? Were you elected to be the master speaker on behalf of the Italians posting in this thread?

Are you really banging the "Poor, innocent Rudy Guede" drum? This just floors me; I can't see you as being stupid enough to believe he was not completely involved in this crime. I am seriously disappointed.
 
Well the separation of defensive lines is not a nuance. It's a bit of a structural aspect. What his defensive line says is: I'm not your alibi. In fact the Sollecito's position - and we are on his last defensive line now - is entirely designed for the event that Knox goes down defiitively. His Florence defence was on this position too. Because this is what his defence team expects.

Please, Machiavelli, read Sollecito's appeals document. Raffaele is not saying this at all. As per the appeals document he is addressing Knox's accusers: "If that's what YOU believe about Knox, what does this have to do with me."

Why drop your renowned precision for confirmation-biased guessing games?
 
Is this, then, why you say:

"I have never been really that interested in motivations reports (even less in narratives)."?​

I say this because this is just what I have always been thinking: I have never been so much interested in motivations reports, because they are objectively not that interesing. They are far from being the most informative, interesting, complete or accurate kind of trial papers; they are often the less interesting ones actually. This goes for all trials.
 
Another first.

None of this makes any sense.

The first 3/4 of the post perhaps - but it is an accurate summary of LJ's [and many others] arguments which account for as much as 30% of the thread content.

As it happens I agree with you w.r.t that stuff making sense :jaw-dropp
 
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One wonders why a man who notes how precise he is, seems to be very selective in applying that renowned precision.

Why wouldn't an innocent-Raffaele throw Amanda under a bus - especially if, as guilters imply, she went out and he knows it? For what reason would an innocent-Raffaele protect a person he knows to be guilty (or very well could be guilty), when he's facing conviction?

What is the rationale these over-precise guilters give for that?

Similarly, why wouldn't a guilty-Raffaele also throw Amanda under a bus - esp. if he could get some reduction in sentence to, say, what Rudy got?

What's the rationale? I now know why some guilters are not interested in narratives. The allegation will suffice, regardless that it doesn't fit any scenario.

Some? When you find someone who can lay out a narrative that fits the evidence, and explains how they can be guilty without contradicting itself, please let us all know.
 
The first 3/4 of the post perhaps - but it is an accurate summary of LJ's [and many others] arguments which account for as much as 30% of the thread content.

As it happens I agree with you w.r.t that stuff making sense :jaw-dropp

Apologies, platonov. You may have misunderstood my post. Your preceding post made absolutely no sense, not any of L.J.'s stuff, especially the post where he asks you for clarification.

And now the post above - it, too, makes no sense.
 
There are three approaches to evaluating the unfairness in Amanda Knox's conviction for calunnia in respect to ECHR case-law; these three approaches are evaluations of:

1. The alleged unfairness of the conviction by the court presided over by judge Claudio Hellmann.

2. The alleged unfairness resulting from the absence of legal counsel, and of a neutral interpreter, during the interrogation of November 5/6, 2007, and of legal counsel from the time of arrest until the time of the confirmation of arrest hearing, including November 6 until November 8.

3. The alleged unfairness resulting from subjecting Amanda Knox to inhuman and degrading treatment to obtain statements from Amanda Knox incriminating to Amanda Knox and to another person, Patrick Lumumba.
 
How can you speak for all of the Italians posting here? Did you all get together and agree on said disbelief? Were you elected to be the master speaker on behalf of the Italians posting in this thread?

Are you really banging the "Poor, innocent Rudy Guede" drum? This just floors me; I can't see you as being stupid enough to believe he was not completely involved in this crime. I am seriously disappointed.

But, "completely involved" in this crime is not the same thing of committing a burglary through Filomena's room and committing a post-mortem sexual violence. These are different actions.
(Not to speak about the unproven details like washing up in the bathroom or stealing the phones and locking the door).

And let's make one thing clear: the concept of burden of proof, reasonable doubt and fair trial works for everybody, including the worst criminals. The fact that one person has committed a crime does not allow - legally, morally or logically - anyone to pile up further crimes on him.
 
I say this because this is just what I have always been thinking: I have never been so much interested in motivations reports, because they are objectively not that interesing. They are far from being the most informative, interesting, complete or accurate kind of trial papers; they are often the less interesting ones actually. This goes for all trials.

Yes, you have said this about motivations reports. My view is that with Judge Massei's and Judge Nencini's you pretty well have to say this, because as attempted "narratives of the crime", they fail miserably. Nencini, particularly, simply makes things up and changes the facts people provide to suit him.

Chieffi, a judge who is not supposed to be redoing the facts of the case, simply gets them wrong nonetheless.... one (of many) is as mentioned above above.....

- Chieffi says that Maria Dramis heard a scream unlike any she had heard before. Yet her testimony was that these sorts of screams were common to that area. On what basis does Chieffi just re-invent facts like this

No wonder motivations reports do not interest you and your precise mind.
 
Food for thought

Is the debating strategy that, since no one has any idea what you are talking about, you can't be refuted?

Don't tell anyone, but I think it's working. :D


Bill was faster, Doug.
 
Some thoughts....

1. The alleged unfairness of the conviction by the court presided over by judge Claudio Hellmann.

The Hellmann court motivation report providing the rationale for the conviction was contradictory. It provided a description of the many conditions that made Amanda Knox vulnerable to coercion and pyschological manipulation, and states that she was under considerable pressure to name a murderer.

This is the translated text of the Hellman court motivation report detailing in regards to the interrogation the vulnerabilities of, and pressures on, Amanda Knox:

The obsessive length of the interrogations, carried out during [both] day and night, by more than one person, on a young and foreign girl who at the time did not speak Italian at all well, was unaware of her own rights, did not have the assistance of an attorney (which she should have been entitled to, being at this point suspected of very serious crimes), and was moreover being assisted by an interpreter who — as shown by Ms. Bongiorno [defense attorney] — did not limit herself to translating, but induced her to force herself to remember, explaining that she [Amanda] was confused in her memories, perhaps because of the trauma she experienced, makes it wholly understandable that she was in a situation of considerable psychological pressure (to call it stress seems an understatement [appare riduttivo]), enough to raise doubts about the actual spontaneity of her statements; a spontaneity which would have strangely [singolarmente] arisen in the middle of the night, after hours and hours of interrogation: the so-called spontaneous statements were made at 1:45 am (middle of the night) on 11-6-2007 (the day after the interrogation had started) and again at 5:45 am afterward, and the note was written a few hours later.

….Amanda Knox, who at the beginning had no reason to be afraid, went into a state of oppression and stress precisely as a result of her interrogation and the way it was conducted.

... it is understandable that Amanda Knox, yielding to pressure and fatigue, would have hoped to put an end to that situation by giving her interrogators that which, in the end, they wanted to hear: a name, a murderer.

The reasoning finding guilt includes the arbitrary opinion that even the aim of escaping from a particularly oppressive personal situation of considerable psychological pressure and stress does not exclude a condition of not intending or wishing, so that there is responsibility for the crime. The crime of calunnia requires that the person making the accusation must know it was false. Therefore, another set of reasons was adopted to demonstrate that Amanda Knox should have known Patrick Lumumba totally innocent: 1) the police put forth her text message to Patrick Lumumba as a suggestion of Lumumba's name, and 2) Lumumba did not have a connection with Meredith Kercher, Amanda Knox should he was clearly innocent. However, neither of these reasons is logically sufficient to show that Lumumba was indeed innocent. Amanda Knox had no actual knowledge of his activities or location with the possible exception of his earler text message to her, and in fact Lumumba had met Meredith, but there is no logical reason to consider the murder to have been committed by someone either known or unknown to Meredith. Thus the reasoning finding guilt is arbitrary.

This is the translated text of the Hellman court motivation report detailing the reasoning for the finding that Amanda is guilty of calunnia in naming Patrick Lumumba:

However, this Court does not find that there is any significant objective evidence that, when she made her spontaneous statements and wrote her note, Amanda Knox was in not only a situation of considerable psychological pressure and stress but also even in a condition of not intending or wishing; so that, having accused of such a serious crime a person whom she knew to be innocent, she must in any case be held responsible for the crime of calumny, the constitution of which does not require any specific purpose from a psychological point of view, such as shifting the blame off of oneself [conseguire la propria impunità] (an aggravating circumstance alleged [here]). Generic criminal intent [il dolo generico] is sufficient, thus including the aim of escaping from a particularly oppressive personal situation.

...the circumstances under which Lumumba’s name emerged in the course of the police interrogation (a message directed to him taken from the cellular phone of Amanda Knox), and the lack of evidence of a connection between Lumumba and Meredith Kercher [should have] allowed Amanda Knox, even if actually innocent herself and far from the house on Via Della Pergola at the time of the crime, to be aware of Lumumba’s total innocence, and thus of the calumny that she was committing by pointing to him as the perpetrator of the murder.

Another issue with the Hellmann court motivation report is that it does not at all address the defense argument relating to false memory syndrome, the report of the defense expert Carlo Caltagirone. The failure to address this important argument of the defense makes the motivation report arbitrary and manifestly unreasoned in respect to the naming of Patrick Lumumba.

Therefore, because of the contradiction between the motivation report detailing the vulnerability of Amanda Knox to coercion and psychological manipulation during the interrogation but, however, providing an arbitrary reasoning and and no reasonable explanation for why she would know Patrick Lumumba was indeed innocent of the crimes against Meredith Kercher the ECHR would find the conviction for calunnia unfair, a violation of Convention Article 6.1. The failure to evaluate an important defense argument in the motivation report, the expert opinion relating to false memory, indicates a defect in the adversarial nature of the trial and a manifestly unreasonable judgment, a further violation of Convention Article 6.1.

Case-law supporting the above analysis includes: 1) for arbitrary reasoning in a judgment as a violation of Convention Article 6.1, Bochan v. Ukraine (No. 2) [GC] 22251/08 §61; Khamidov v. Russia 72118/01 §170; 2) for the unreasonable failure to take into account an expert opinion from the defense, Matytsina v. Russia 58428/10 §207.
 
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