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Continuation Part 12: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Machiavelli said:
The "trade" sex for drugs is absolutely not the topic of my assertion about Amanda Knox; the object of my statement is phone contacts and sexual contacts with drug dealers. An inference, out of common sense, from this, would be that those contects had occurred for one of two reasons, either because of Knox's interest in random sex with "strange guys" not different from Rudy Guede and from his very same environment (therefore, no argument to put distance between her and Guede and no charachter objection against a sex-themed party scenario), or because of her interest in drugs (therefore no argument to object a drug-fuelled party scenario), or for both reasons.

LOL. Somebody needs a new hobby.

This is Machiavelli's guilt by innuendo. He keeps saying all he's trying to do is make a point about Guede and Knox not really being that different. Yet, look what he does. He says this "assertion" is really an "inference"...

And yet the "inference" now becomes a reason to quash an argument....

And voila..... the alleged motive for the killing pops out the end.

All this, and yet the two conviction judges at the lower grade trials do not support the drug-fuelled party scenario.

For Nencini is is an argument over rent money, and for Massei it is Rudy's lust, and Rudy's lust alone, because as Massei said, Rudy did not need any encouragement from anyone (much less Knox or Sollecito) to go in and assault Meredith.

So.... what is Machiavelli arguing? Assertions and inferences. It's all right there. Is it any wonder that Machiavelli argues tooth and nail that the motives as advanced are now only "speculations"? Can someone tell me why Machiavelli would defend a prosecutor who even he says brings speculations, and not evidence, to trial?

Now, be prepared for Machiavelli to deny this in his response....
 
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Mach, While your at it, please show the photos and testimony pointing out cuts on Knox's hands indicating where the blood could have come from during the attack.

I don't have Lalli's photos from the "body inspection" of Ms. Knox, about which some things are reported (like the fact that the scratch on her neck was not a "hickey").
 
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ETA: DF, as far as creationism vs evolution is concerned, I can see how evolution doesn't need a creator to maybe explain how life arrived at where it is today, but I don't see how you can rule out a creator (God) using evolution as one of her tools in the creation process. Personally, I tend to agree with Einstein when he described (paraphrasing) God as being all the forces of nature combined together, or as I like to say, "God is gravity". Ha ha.

There are other threads on this forum that are better for arguing creation vs evolution. I am referring to a specific tactic of creationists and how ti is similar to the pro guilt list that Bill Williams posted.
 
I don't have Lalli's photos from the "body inspection" of Ms. Knox, about which some things are reported (like the fact that the scratch on her neck was not a "hickey").

So let's see. In Italian logic, Knox was bleeding out of a bruise, but Guede didnt bleed out of the obvious cuts on his hand from stabbing kercher in the neck.
 
So let's see. In Italian logic, Knox was bleeding out of a bruise, but Guede didnt bleed out of the obvious cuts on his hand from stabbing kercher in the neck.

Being that pictures of Meredeth's neck wound can be found on the internet if you look, I am quite sure you could find pictures of Amanda's neck mark if it really was something other than a hickey.
 
This is Machiavelli's guilt by innuendo. He keeps saying all he's trying to do is make a point about Guede and Knox not really being that different. Yet, look what he does. He says this "assertion" is really an "inference"...

And yet the "inference" now becomes a reason to quash an argument....

And voila..... the alleged motive for the killing pops out the end.

This has nothing to do with the motive.

All this, and yet the two conviction judges at the lower grade trials do not support the drug-fuelled party scenario.

The "party" is supposed to be a meeting among three people: Guede, Knox, Sollecito. All courts placed the three partying together at the apartment.
This part of a scenario is a context, not a motive.

For Nencini is is an argument over rent money, and for Massei it is Rudy's lust, and Rudy's lust alone, because as Massei said, Rudy did not need any encouragement from anyone (much less Knox or Sollecito) to go in and assault Meredith.

Oh, no. Massei never says Rudy's lust alone. Absolutely not. On the contrary, he explicilty says that the sexual motivation in that moment was equally shared by Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito in the same degree as Rudy. I won't quote the relevant pages of the Massei report, because you already know where they are.
Let's not cheat: Massei never says that Rudy is alone in his lustful sexual arousal. The report explicitly says Rudy was not the only one pursueing a sexual violence.

Nencini, at last, quite thoroughly explain that the psychological motivations of single individuals are varied within the context of a gang violence.

So.... what is Machiavelli arguing? Assertions and inferences. It's all right there. Is it any wonder that Machiavelli argues tooth and nail that the motives as advanced are now only "speculations"?

You are obfuscating and trying to get around things. There is a point: there is your assertion that there was a "ritualistic killing" scenario put forward by the prosecution, and that it was a premeditated murder scenario.

Such assertion is false.

All you need to do is finally admit that it is false. It is unsupported and contrary to the the truth of what is actually written in the prosecution arguments, also contrary to all the rest of the trial papers including the filing of charges (non premeditated murder).

The only thing you should focus on is this assertion, and its being unfounded.
I think I have explained thoroughly why Mignini mentioned the Halloween ritualistic elements, what is their weight as speculation, the fact that they are not about a killing but about the theme of the "party".
I explained why it is obvious that those are not "the motive", that they are not relevant, and what they mean.
The rest of the prosecution arguments - what you chose not to quote - does the rest of the work.

Nencini explains his idea about the motive very well and sums up the various additional speculations by all other prosecutors. Not an "rgument over rent money", but a sum of causes, among which heated speech over missing money is one probable element that might have triggered the argument. It is not the "motive" anyway, rather just a trigger.

Can someone tell me why Machiavelli would defend a prosecutor who even he says brings speculations, and not evidence, to trial?

Not evidence?

Where do you get this not evidence from?

I think there was a lot of evidence. When you have evidence, you can actually bring up all the additional speculations you like.
 
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Being that pictures of Meredeth's neck wound can be found on the internet if you look, I am quite sure you could find pictures of Amanda's neck mark if it really was something other than a hickey.

The testimonies say it was a scratch, and rather deep, not a hickey.
 
So let's see. In Italian logic, Knox was bleeding out of a bruise, but Guede didnt bleed out of the obvious cuts on his hand from stabbing kercher in the neck.

Maybe he bled, but not in the small bathroom. There was Knox's blood there, not Guede's blood.
 
Maybe he bled, but not in the small bathroom. There was Knox's blood there, not Guede's blood.

Probably guede's, too. His blood is all over the place: in kercher's vagina, the palm print, the knife hilt print in the bed, on the floor, the door, in the bathroom, on the purse, and of course downstairs.
 
The testimonies say it was a scratch, and rather deep, not a hickey.

"The" testimonies???? This is where Machiavelli purposefully lies.

Revisionist Machiavelli. The pics taken of the hickey on the day of Knox's arrest have a disclaimer that the photos had to be enhanced or else the hickey would not have been visible.

It is amazing that Machiavelli even tries to get away with this stuff.
 
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There are other threads on this forum that are better for arguing creation vs evolution. I am referring to a specific tactic of creationists and how ti is similar to the pro guilt list that Bill Williams posted.
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Absolutely DF. I apologize to you, the mods, and everyone else here for bringing it up, but let's see if I can connect it up somehow.

Let me see if I have you correctly. You use the creationism vs evolution examples because the arguements from the creationist are very similar to the arguements used by the probably guilty crowd.

Do you think they're similar because their arguements are both faith based? You know, a kind of religious zealousness behind it all?

And that, the probably innocent crowd tends to think in terms of science, but I can see a little religious zealousness there also, but that's all just my opinion.

With science (like evolution and the probably innocent crowd), a good case can be made that Raffaele and Amanda had nothing to do with it, but what if there's some truth to what the religious zealots (like creationist or the probably guilty crowd) say.

In other words, like my arguement that God is gravity and without gravity you wouldn't have evolution, maybe there's some truth to both sides

For example, the bathroom photo. I tend to think Mach's explanation is plausible and that the police released a bunch of crime scene photos and the newspapers put headlines to it.

Now if one of those newspapers quoted someone from the LPE and that's what they told the paper, then yes I would have to change my mind, but I haven't seen that yet.

And once again, this is all just my opinion,

d

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Oh, no. Massei never says Rudy's lust alone. Absolutely not. On the contrary, he explicilty says that the sexual motivation in that moment was equally shared by Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito in the same degree as Rudy. I won't quote the relevant pages of the Massei report, because you already know where they are.
Let's not cheat: Massei never says that Rudy is alone in his lustful sexual arousal. The report explicitly says Rudy was not the only one pursueing a sexual violence.

Machiavelli, you are making things up again. Let Massei do the talking here....

Massei page 391 said:
Raffaele who were
together in Amanda’s house; together in Amanda’s room and alone, since Meredith
was in her own room and Rudy, as previously mentioned, was in the bathroom.
It is therefore probable that Rudy, coming out of the bathroom, let himself be carried
away by a situation that he perceived as being charged with sexual stimuli and,
giving in to his sexual urges, sought to satisfy them by going into Meredith’s room,
where she was alone with the door at least partly open (she never closed it unless
she was going away for several days)​

It's no wonder you do not want to quote Massei. It is not a "party" he's describing, and BTW he's not describing it as a "riti" associated with Halloween either. Amanda and Raffaele are in Amanda's room (acc. to Massei) and Rudy on his own initiative (acc. to Massei) begins the sexual violence.

Why do you do this, Machiavelli? Why do you wilfully misrepresent things? Why do you wilfully misrepresent even the two courts which convicted?

I know the answer.
 
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"The" testimonies???? This is where Machiavelli purposefully lies.

Revisionist Machiavelli. The pics taken of the hickey on the day of Knox's arrest have a disclaimer that the photos had to be enhanced or else the hickey would not have been visible.

It is amazing that Machiavelli even tries to get away with this stuff.

The days of Knox's arrest was six days after the neck lesion allegedly occurred, and according to Lalli a scratch may well be perceptible for about only 3/4 days.

But Laura Mezzetti saw Amanda the day after the murder and noticed that it was not a stain nor a hickey but a scratch, the scratch was very well visible and "rather deep".
 
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