Continuation Part 12: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Bill Williams]

How are these alleged statements linked to the defamation case by Mignini relating to statements made in the book Honor Bound by Raffaele Sollecito with Andrew Gumbel? According to the Andrea Vogt information posted previously, IIUC certain statements on certain pages of the book were alleged to be defamatory to Mignini. (Or are the statements alleged to be defamatory to the judiciary and Mignini is prosecutor for them?)

AFAIK (which is not a lot!) this list of lies has no bearing on Mignini's case against Sollecito/Gumbel.

It came about because like Machiavelli recently, guilters always made reference to "all the lies" Amanda Knox was supposed to have told. I had 2 PM's with guilters a while back, where eventually this became key for their belief in guilt.

Like Machiavelli upthread recently, they were long on allegation and short of specifics. Indeed, one of the guilters (well known over at PMF) finally conceded that the DNA evidence was faulty, the superwitnesses were sketchy, but there was nothing us innocentisti could do about "all the lies" Amanda Knox told.

Still - when presses, the only "lie" this guilter would repeat was, "She blamed a black man for the crime."

It took a while but I then found Harry Rag's list of lies. They are the first ten above. The thing which immediately struck me was that this was, essentially, a list of lies Raffaele was supposed to have told!!!! This list was compiled by H.R. even before Honor Bound came out, so it begged the question of how H.R. even knew these things!

And like, "all the other evidence", "all the lies" vapourize when examined.

But none of these will play in the defamation trial. I wonder if Mignini would have marched in the Je Suis Charlie event......

 

[Kaosium]

Thanks for reposting the link. Good information presented well in that chapter.

Yes, there's about forty pages there on the subject of various forms of false confessions, reading through it you can see ILE broke about every rule in the book that night.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

comparisons with the composite and consensus profiles

On p. 139 Dr. Gill wrote, "36-I (junction of the handle and blade of knife) revealed a two person mixture attributed by the prosecution to Amanda Knox and and an unknown individual. He provided this link, which I cannot verify, being on a problematic computer.

Page 63 from the document at this link gives the comparison between Ms Knox's profile and the consensus and the composite traces. This trace (much of which is Ms. Knox's profile) might have originated from the DNA on the handle, inasmuch as DNA has been shown to migrate during packaging and transfer.

 

[Kaosium]

It looks like there was an Italian police investigation into the TJMK/PMF hate groups. Other than this, I don't know anything about it.

Boy is that interesting! Especially as that report must have been generated after the split of PMF in the Spring of '11. Why would the Polizia di Stato be looking into PMF and TJMK for a case they had investigated 3.5 years before and which they were done with in court for more than a year?

 

[Desert Fox]

AFAIK (which is not a lot!) this list of lies has no bearing on Mignini's case against Sollecito/Gumbel.

It came about because like Machiavelli recently, guilters always made reference to "all the lies" Amanda Knox was supposed to have told. I had 2 PM's with guilters a while back, where eventually this became key for their belief in guilt.

Like Machiavelli upthread recently, they were long on allegation and short of specifics. Indeed, one of the guilters (well known over at PMF) finally conceded that the DNA evidence was faulty, the superwitnesses were sketchy, but there was nothing us innocentisti could do about "all the lies" Amanda Knox told.

Still - when presses, the only "lie" this guilter would repeat was, "She blamed a black man for the crime."

It took a while but I then found Harry Rag's list of lies. They are the first ten above. The thing which immediately struck me was that this was, essentially, a list of lies Raffaele was supposed to have told!!!! This list was compiled by H.R. even before Honor Bound came out, so it begged the question of how H.R. even knew these things!

And like, "all the other evidence", "all the lies" vapourize when examined.

But none of these will play in the defamation trial. I wonder if Mignini would have marched in the Je Suis Charlie event......

As I have stated a few times, I have long debated creation vs evolution.
There is a tactic that creationist use called the Gish Gallop.
This list seems to be a variation on the Gish Gallop, a list of stuff that seems damning but is really smoke and mirrors. The problem is that every item takes a huge amount of research to refute.

 

[Bill Williams]

Boy is that interesting! Especially as that report must have been generated after the split of PMF in the Spring of '11. Why would the Polizia di Stato be looking into PMF and TJMK for a case they had investigated 3.5 years before and which they were done with in court for more than a year?

The thing which suggests it is not a prank, is that it has a date on it, and does not use the comic sans serif font! Also, the signature is not undecipherable.....

Still, with all the blanked out parts, it's difficult to take seriously. Then again, maybe it s wise for the usual suspects to at least inquire!

 

[Bill Williams]

As I have stated a few times, I have long debated creation vs evolution.
There is a tactic that creationist use called the Gish Gallop.
This list seems to be a variation on the Gish Gallop, a list of stuff that seems damning but is really smoke and mirrors. The problem is that every item takes a huge amount of research to refute.

All this brings me back to the reason I reposted H.R.'s claims. Machiavelli in this thread has made a couple of claims - assertions without proof.

One is: Knox had a litany of lies. Machiavelli never bothers to list them, but H.R. at least had the decency to try to back up his specious claims.

Another is what Machiavelli ignores. At the 2008 hearing to set AK and RS over for trial, Micheli called the Hallowe'en ritual killing theory, "fantasy."

Does Machiavelli discount that? Not that I've seen. What he does is use the time-honoured tactic to claim: "Well it was never that important to begin with." Mostly he avoids it.

The pro-guilt lobby is bankrupt, even as the Italian judicial process continues this farce.

 

[Anode]

Meredith’s DNA would be an extremely significant finding even without any Knox’s DNA, because there is no plausible justification for Kercher’s DNA on an object in a drawer inside Sollecito’s apartment, whereas Knox’s DNA on the handle itself would have rather poor relevance (except for trace "I" which has some more relevance because it shows to be likely from Knox’s blood rather than from epithelial cells – Knox’s blood being another topic which you fail to consider; note that it was not known at the time).

Can you supply any scientific support for this astonishing statement? In addition, DNA is known to transfer during packaging and transport (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21546329abstract). Therefore, inferences based upon location of the DNA are dubious. Beyond that, 36I is a mixture; so there must be some unknown person bleeding according to this logic.

Mach, While your at it, please show the photos and testimony pointing out cuts on Knox's hands indicating where the blood could have come from during the attack.

 

[Kaosium]

The thing which suggests it is not a prank, is that it has a date on it, and does not use the comic sans serif font! Also, the signature is not undecipherable.....

I see the 2013 date now, that's even more curious. That would likely place it between the ISC quashing the acquittal and the show trial. However I can't make anything out of the signature, do you mean that scribbling in the upper right-hand corner that's partially blanked out?

Still, with all the blanked out parts, it's difficult to take seriously. Then again, maybe it s wise for the usual suspects to at least inquire!

I sure wish there wasn't so much redacted from that page. Where did this come from? I can think of a couple reasons why the Polizia di Stato might be following PMF/TJMK, some of which might be damned inconvenient to have to explain to the press or courts...

 

[Bill Williams]

Still, with all the blanked out parts, it's difficult to take seriously. Then again, maybe it s wise for the usual suspects to at least inquire!

I sure wish there wasn't so much redacted from that page. Where did this come from? I can think of a couple reasons why the Polizia di Stato might be following PMF/TJMK, some of which might be damned inconvenient to have to explain to the press or courts...

None of this says much. There's, apparently, lots of room below where the .jpg ends at the bottom.

Still, when people post about Masonic conspiracies and knowing the exact amount which Judge Hellmann was bribed with...... this pic is just too good to be true from this side of the fence.

My bet is if the blanked out parts were revealed it would not be as sinister....

 

[Kauffer]

The role of Government Agents at the ECHR

This is rather interesting. Perhaps Numbers would like to see what he can find out to develop our understanding in this area with regard to Italy if he has time. I am rather ill equipped at present for research being both abroad and rather busy.

The Role of the Government Agent before the ECHR in Ensuring Effective Human Rights Protection

Introduction

The right to lodge individual applications against the states with the European Court of Human Rights in cases of alleged violation of human rights also involves the right of a state to defend itself. The Government Agent represents the interests of the respondent State before the Court.

Defending the rights of a state that had allegedly violated human rights, the Government Agent is in the position to provide an effective protection of human rights as well, to whatever extent it might sound a paradox.

The legal grounds for the participation of the Government Agent in the proceedings before the Court are contained in Article 35 of the Rules of the Court, which prescribes that the parties are represented by agents (representatives) who may be assisted by attorneys-at-law and counsellors.
The European Convention on Human Rights does not contain any explicit provision on the agents, but it is clear from the formulations of certain articles of the Convention that the states are represented before the Court by the Government Agents. Thus, for example, Article 38, paragraph 1, items a and b of the Convention prescribes that the Court, if it declares an individual application admissible, pursue the examination of the case, together with the representatives of the parties and it avails itself to the disposal of the parties concerned with a view to securing a friendly settlement of the matter on the basis of respect for human rights as defined in the Convention and the protocols thereto.

Generally speaking, the functions performed by a Government Agent may be summarised as follows:

– to accomplish the contacts between the Court and a member state of the Convention, which means that the cases as well as all the correspondence and statements are made through the Government Agent;
– to represent a state before the Court, which means that a Government Agent prepares and signs all written observations of the respondent State (observations) and presents oral observations in one of the official languages of the Court, whether they are prepared by the Agent himself/herself or not (there are member states that engage large law offices in various fields of law to prepare the submissions to the Court, whereas the Government Agent only presents or signs them);
– to accomplish co-operation with the competent authorities in the country (the ministries, the courts, the police, the prison institutions, etc.) in order to collect necessary elements for the preparation of a reply to the Court;
to establish and maintain the co-operation with the Court registry, providing certain information, documents, etc. at its request;
– to have the right to intervene in certain cases before the Court (in the interest of proper administration of justice or if the applicant is a citizen of the state the Government Agent represents before the Court);
– to negotiate friendly settlements, conclusion of friendly settlements and issuance of unilateral declarations;
– to monitor the execution of judgements adopted by the Court and submit information to the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe on the measures undertaken by the government of the Respondent State regarding the execution of judgements;
- to monitor harmonisation of domestic legal regulations with the provisions of the Convention and the Court case-law, and the right of legislative initiative in some individual cases as well.

In addition to the above stated functions, the Government Agent also participates in the activities of the Steering Committee for Human Rights (CDDH) and the Committee of Experts for the Improvement of Procedures for the Protection of Human Rights before the Court (DH–PR), in the working groups within these Committees, attends periodic meetings of the agents that are organised by the Council of Europe, works on awareness raising on human rights, and the agent may also have a role in the legislative process.
The role of the Government Agent in ensuring effective human rights protection shall be considered on the basis of his/her activities in the process of conclusion of friendly settlements, in the process of supervision of execution of judgements rendered by the European Court of Human Rights and through his/her activities directed to the strengthening of awareness of the need to respect human rights.

http://www.ius.bg.ac.rs/informacije/Conference abstracts/Caric abstract.pdf

 

[Kaosium]

None of this says much. There's, apparently, lots of room below where the .jpg ends at the bottom.

Indeed, there's no reason to think that list ends there. Were the entirety of the document revealed would it show IIP or even this thread?

Still, when people post about Masonic conspiracies and knowing the exact amount which Judge Hellmann was bribed with...... this pic is just too good to be true from this side of the fence.

My bet is if the blanked out parts were revealed it would not be as sinister....

What are the possible reasons the Italian Polizia di Stato would have for following english language websites on the murder?

 

[Desert Fox]

Page 63 from the document at this link gives the comparison between Ms Knox's profile and the consensus and the composite traces. This trace (much of which is Ms. Knox's profile) might have originated from the DNA on the handle, inasmuch as DNA has been shown to migrate during packaging and transfer.

I wonder if Nencini had simply bit the bullet and wrote "Have no evidence, not guilty" if the ISC would have accepted it.

 

[Numbers]

This is rather interesting. Perhaps Numbers would like to see what he can find out to develop our understanding in this area with regard to Italy if he has time. I am rather ill equipped at present for research being both abroad and rather busy.

The Role of the Government Agent before the ECHR in Ensuring Effective Human Rights Protection

Introduction

The right to lodge individual applications against the states with the European Court of Human Rights in cases of alleged violation of human rights also involves the right of a state to defend itself. The Government Agent represents the interests of the respondent State before the Court.

Defending the rights of a state that had allegedly violated human rights, the Government Agent is in the position to provide an effective protection of human rights as well, to whatever extent it might sound a paradox.

The legal grounds for the participation of the Government Agent in the proceedings before the Court are contained in Article 35 of the Rules of the Court, which prescribes that the parties are represented by agents (representatives) who may be assisted by attorneys-at-law and counsellors.
The European Convention on Human Rights does not contain any explicit provision on the agents, but it is clear from the formulations of certain articles of the Convention that the states are represented before the Court by the Government Agents. Thus, for example, Article 38, paragraph 1, items a and b of the Convention prescribes that the Court, if it declares an individual application admissible, pursue the examination of the case, together with the representatives of the parties and it avails itself to the disposal of the parties concerned with a view to securing a friendly settlement of the matter on the basis of respect for human rights as defined in the Convention and the protocols thereto.

Generally speaking, the functions performed by a Government Agent may be summarised as follows:

– to accomplish the contacts between the Court and a member state of the Convention, which means that the cases as well as all the correspondence and statements are made through the Government Agent;
– to represent a state before the Court, which means that a Government Agent prepares and signs all written observations of the respondent State (observations) and presents oral observations in one of the official languages of the Court, whether they are prepared by the Agent himself/herself or not (there are member states that engage large law offices in various fields of law to prepare the submissions to the Court, whereas the Government Agent only presents or signs them);
– to accomplish co-operation with the competent authorities in the country (the ministries, the courts, the police, the prison institutions, etc.) in order to collect necessary elements for the preparation of a reply to the Court;
to establish and maintain the co-operation with the Court registry, providing certain information, documents, etc. at its request;
– to have the right to intervene in certain cases before the Court (in the interest of proper administration of justice or if the applicant is a citizen of the state the Government Agent represents before the Court);
– to negotiate friendly settlements, conclusion of friendly settlements and issuance of unilateral declarations;
– to monitor the execution of judgements adopted by the Court and submit information to the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe on the measures undertaken by the government of the Respondent State regarding the execution of judgements;
- to monitor harmonisation of domestic legal regulations with the provisions of the Convention and the Court case-law, and the right of legislative initiative in some individual cases as well.

In addition to the above stated functions, the Government Agent also participates in the activities of the Steering Committee for Human Rights (CDDH) and the Committee of Experts for the Improvement of Procedures for the Protection of Human Rights before the Court (DH–PR), in the working groups within these Committees, attends periodic meetings of the agents that are organised by the Council of Europe, works on awareness raising on human rights, and the agent may also have a role in the legislative process.
The role of the Government Agent in ensuring effective human rights protection shall be considered on the basis of his/her activities in the process of conclusion of friendly settlements, in the process of supervision of execution of judgements rendered by the European Court of Human Rights and through his/her activities directed to the strengthening of awareness of the need to respect human rights.

http://www.ius.bg.ac.rs/informacije/Conference abstracts/Caric abstract.pdf

Kauffer,

Thanks for this informative post.

This write-up makes clear that the role of a State's agent at the ECHR is somewhat more like that of an ambassador, with a perhaps secondary role as a counsel.

Some posters here have conveyed the impression that the role of a State's agent is somehow equivalent to that of an attorney in a trial, with the opportunity to display individual legal prowess. That does not appear to be the situation; the agent conveys or supervises the conveyance of information such as documents between the ECHR and the State, but has little opportunity for legal argument, except as authorized by the State.

 

[Welshman]

For the umpteenth time, here is Harry Rag's list of lies....

This is a reconstruction from two sources, first Peter Quennell's page, post by The Machine aka. Harry Rag.

Lie one. Raffaele Sollecito first claimed in an interview with Kate Mansey from the Sunday Mirror that he and Amanda Knox were at a friend’s party on the night of the murder. It would have been obviously a tad difficult for Sollecito to find any witnesses who had attended an imaginary party to provide him and Knox with an alibi. This alibi was predictably abandoned very quickly.

Lie two. Sollecito then claimed that he was his apartment with Amanda Knox. This alibi is flatly contradicted by a silent witness: forensic evidence. According to the scientific police, there are six separate pieces of forensic evidence, including an abundant amount of his DNA on Meredith’s bra clasp, that place him in the cottage on Via della Pergola on the night of the murder.

Lie three. Sollecito then came up with a third alibi. He claimed that he was alone at his apartment and that Knox had gone out from 9pm to 1am. Both Sollecito and Knox gave completely different accounts of where they were, who they were with and what they doing on the night of the murder. These weren’t small inconsistencies, but huge, whopping lies.

Lie four. Sollecito and Knox told the postal police that he had called the police before the postal police had turned up at the cottage and were waiting for them. Sollecito later admitted that this was not true and that he had lied because he had believed Amanda Knox’s version of what had happened.

Lie five. He said he went outside “to see if I could climb up to Meredith’s window” but could not. “I tried to force the door but couldn’t, and at that point I decided to call my sister for advice because she is a Carabinieri officer. She told me to dial 112 (the Italian emergency number) but at that moment the postal police arrived. He added: “In my former statement I told you a load of rubbish because I believed Amanda’s version of what happened and did not think about the inconsistencies.” (The Times, 7 November, 2007).

Lie six. Knox and Sollecito said they couldn’t remember most of what happened on the night of the murder, because they had smoked cannabis. It is medically impossible for cannabis to cause such dramatic amnesia and there are no studies that have ever demonstrated that this is possible.

Lie seven. Sollecito claimed that he had spoken to his father at 11pm. Phone records show that there was no telephone conversation at this time. Sollecito’s father called him a couple of hours earlier at 8.40pm.

Lie eight. Sollecito claimed that he was surfing the Internet from 11pm to 1am. The Kercher’s lawyer, Franco Maresca, pointed out that credible witnesses had shattered Sollecito’s alibi for the night of the murder. Sollecito still maintains he was home that night, working on his computer, but computer specialists have testified that his computer was not used for an eight-hour period on the night of Meredith’s murder

Lie nine. Sollecito claimed that he had slept until 10pm the next day. However, he used his computer at 5.32am and turned on his mobile phone at 6.02am. The Italian Supreme Court remarked that his night was “sleepless” to say the least.

Lie ten. When Sollecito heard that the scientific police had found Meredith’s DNA on the double DNA knife in his apartment. He told a cock and bull story about accidentally pricking Meredith’s hand whilst cooking at his apartment. “The fact that Meredith’s DNA is on my kitchen knife is because once, when we were all cooking together, I accidentally pricked her hand." Meredith had never been to Sollecito’s apartment. Sollecito could not have accidentally pricked her hand whilst cooking. (Note: this is the one, and only one, bona fide lie Sollecito told. It was remarkable as an awkward lie - yet still, it was plucked out of his diary not something he said to anyone else!)

Now from the blog there are.....

Lie eleven. - Finally, a lie from Amanda, about how Knox gave a spontaneous confession to Mignini in interrogation, a lie about Patrick Lumumba.

Repeat of lie 1. Just two days after the murder, Raffaele Sollecito gave an interview to Kate Mansey of the UK’s Sunday Mirror in which he explained his first version of the events. “It was a normal night. Meredith had gone out with one of her English friends and Amanda and I went to party with one of my friends.”

Lie twelve. - from Amanda, about the spot of blood she saw in the bathroom - "At first I thought they had come from my ears. But then when I scratched the drops a bit, I saw they were all dry, and I thought ‘That’s weird. Oh well, I'll take my shower.’” After that, she dried her hair, got dressed and calmly returned to Raffaele’s apartment.

Lie thirteen. “…Then he came out and we made breakfast, and while we were preparing it and drinking coffee, I explained to him what I had seen, and I asked him for advice, because when I went into my house, everything seemed in order, only there were these little weird things, and I couldn't figure out how to understand them.” This is hardly the panicked girl that Raffaele described. (Note: So this is a lie attributed to Raffaele?)

Repeat of lie #2, although the blog calls it a "change of story". - Raffaele told police that he and Knox stayed at his flat the entire night of November 1, 2007 (night of the murder)

Repeat of lie #3, although the blog calls it a "change of story". - During his November 5, 2007 interrogation and subsequent arrest, Sollecito wanted to come clean, and he told police that his previous version to them was “un sacco di cazzate” (a load of rubbish). “In my former statement I told you a load of rubbish because I believed Amanda’s version of what happened and did not think about the inconsistencies.” (The Times, 7 November, 2007). He said he and Knox returned to his flat at approximately 8:30pm, and that Knox left his apartment, while he stayed there, and she returned at around 1:00am. He claimed that he believed that she went to see if she had to work that evening. This was clearly an attempt to exonerate himself from any culpability, as Knox had received a text message from her then boss, Patrick Lumumba, at 8:19pm that evening informing Knox that it was slow at the bar and she would not be needed to work that evening.

Variation of lie #3, although the blog calls it a "change of story". - after his arrest, Raffaele wrote several letters to his father while in prison. This was written under no duress. In the letter, Raffaele explains to his father that he and Knox had arrived at his flat at about 8 – 8:30 pm on the night of the murder. “Amanda had [then] left for work,” he writes, but he could not remember how long she was gone—but he writes that he is “certain” that Knox had stayed with him the “entire night.”

Variation of lie #3. - Then, he shows uncertainty whether or not Knox had committed the murder (or knew something about it) and blatantly calls her a liar...Raffaele writes to his father: “I try to understand what Amanda's role was in this event. The Amanda that I know is an Amanda who lives a carefree life. Her only thought is the pursuit of pleasure at all times. But even the thought that she could be a killer is impossible for me. I have read her version of events. Some of the things she said are not true, but I don't know why she said them.” (Note: this says precisely the OPPOSITE of what the blogger claims it says.)

When PGP such as Machiavelli constantly accuse Amanda and Raffaele of lying the following should be remembered :-

• Machiavelli constantly lies on this forum. These lies include Amanda having sexual relations with drug dealers and evidence of a clean up.

• The prosecution lied on a massive scale. PGP slavishly support and defend the prosecution.

• Books and documentaries on the case often contain falsehoods some of which are detailed here http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/meredith-kercher-media-lies/ . The PGP never complain about these falsehoods. John Kercher's book Meredith which was full of falsehoods received glowing 5 star reviews on Amazon by the PGP and slavish praise was heaped on John Kercher.

• Rudy lied he had a date with Meredith and someone else came into the cottage to attack Meredith. The PGP never condemn Rudy for lying and many see Rudy as a hero.

• The PGP have set up a website themurderofmeredithkercher.com which was full of falsehoods detailed here http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/guilter-wiki-myths-lies-distortions/ and here http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/guilter-wiki-lies-myths-contd/

• The PGP spread lies and misinformation in the comments sections of articles about the case and Amazon. The below are a small example

Heiress Amazon review WTBH - "For starters was found cleaning the place with bleach when the police arrived". Truth: Amanda was not caught cleaning when the police arrived.

Bejamin Fletcher "BRFC are back" Amazon review WTBH - "They've found Meredith's blood on a knife in his apartment". Truth: There was no blood on Meredith's knife.

Christina comments page 7 Amazon review WTBH - "whose is the female fooprint who applied female sized bruises on MK's neck in strangulation" Truth: There were no female footprints in Meredith's room or female thumbprints on Meredith's neck.

JF Rodrigue Amazon review WTBH - " She was doing cartwheels in the police station." Truth: It has been proved Amanda did not do cartwheels.

Wendy Murphy in her blog - "pro Amanda forces forget to note the knife was found hidden in a shoebox far back inside a coset at Sollecitito's apartment and that the knife had been scrubbed with bleach." Truth:The knife was found in Raffaele's kitchen drawer and the knife had not been cleaned with bleach.

• The Nenci report was full of falsehoods detailed here http://injusticeanywhereforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=85&t=3011and the PGP never complained about this.

In view of the above it is hypocritical for the PGP to accuse Amanda and Raffaele of lying when they lie themselves or condone the lies of others.

 

[Machiavelli]

All this brings me back to the reason I reposted H.R.'s claims. Machiavelli in this thread has made a couple of claims - assertions without proof.

One is: Knox had a litany of lies. Machiavelli never bothers to list them, but H.R. at least had the decency to try to back up his specious claims.

Another is what Machiavelli ignores. At the 2008 hearing to set AK and RS over for trial, Micheli called the Hallowe'en ritual killing theory, "fantasy."

(...)

There is NO "ritual killing theory". I repeat - can you hear me? - there was NO ritual killing theory, there has never been one. The prosecution theory has never been about a premeditated murder. Speculation about Halloween only referred to the theme of the home "little party" sex game.

 

[Machiavelli]

-


-

Thank you Bill.

Mach, are these the lies you're talking about?

d

-

I believe those are lies, but it's not what I am thinking about when I talk about the lies in Amanda's early account of facts.

 

[Bill Williams]

There is NO "ritual killing theory". I repeat - can you hear me? - there was NO ritual killing theory, there has never been one. The prosecution theory has never been about a premeditated murder. Speculation about Halloween only referred to the theme of the home "little party" sex game.

Why then did Micheli have to refer to it as a fantasy? Even the press sympathetic to Mignini interpreted it as a rebuke to him.

Now your position seems to be that he never advanced it. Good for you. This is spoken as-if a lawyer who is now trying to say that a point lost, was a point never made to begin with.

A small concession to you, Machiavelli. I now understand why you say I am advancing a strawman argument. I am not. However, you seem to think that I'm simply inventing what people like Micheli said, only so that I can use it against you.

Once again, the point is - did Micheli say that the ritualistic killing associated with Hallowe'en "was a fantasy" or did Micheli not say it?

That's what you keep avoiding. Unless you address this, you have not demonstrated I am erecting a strawman. You simply default to, "Well, it was never advanced to begin with." You may be the only person in the universe who believes that.

 

[Samson]

There is NO "ritual killing theory". I repeat - can you hear me? - there was NO ritual killing theory, there has never been one. The prosecution theory has never been about a premeditated murder. Speculation about Halloween only referred to the theme of the home "little party" sex game.

Well, I suggest you stop posting sympathetically on Michael's disgusting little website, where in september he wrote

Meredith was murdered because of Knox's deep resentment, anger and jealousy towards her. But, the act itself was carried out as a sexual thrill kill between lovers. It was a ritualistic murder, but the ritualism in this case was sexual.

and

The ancient Roman short sword used by the Roman legionaries was called the gladius. It was the same word for penis. The Romans saw them as symbolically being the same thing, only one penetrates for love and the other for war. Or consider the not unsubtle sexual symbolism of the vampire who orgiastically penetrates their victim's neck with their fangs. After all, and it's an important point, if the intent was simply to kill her alone, why then not dispense with knives and use a far less bloody and more practical method, especially when you're killing your victim in your own home.

 

[Diocletus]

There is NO "ritual killing theory". I repeat - can you hear me? - there was NO ritual killing theory, there has never been one. The prosecution theory has never been about a premeditated murder. Speculation about Halloween only referred to the theme of the home "little party" sex game.

"Riti"