The Electric Comet theory

[ben m]

"We" are waiting for data? Who is waiting? Is there an electric-comet theorist who knows how to analyze space plasma data? Rather than "waiting" they should get off their butts and analyze some actual space plasma data.

Giotto data: 1500 mainstream analyses, 0 EC analyses to date.
Deep Space 1 data: 700 mainstream analyses, 0 EC analyses to date.
Stardust data: 1200 mainstream analyses, 0 EC analyses to date.

EC thinks comets are nearly the same as asteroids, right?

Hayabusa data: 550 mainstream analyses, 0 EC analyses to date.
NEAR Shoemaker data: 750 mainstream analyses, 0 EC analyses to date.
DAWN/Vesta data: 740 mainstream analyses, 0 EC analyses to date.

Who exactly is "waiting" for data? Can you name this person?

 

[Reality Check]

Waiting we are for the data you speak of.

Waiting for data forever you will be, young Sol88 !
It would be idiotic to think that any data would show that comets are made of rock given the multiple ways that their densities have been measured and the little fact that Deep Impact was observed not to smash into rock.

You ignored most of the contents of Cygnus_X1's post. The first questions were about the Sun which has had centuries of ground based observations and decades of space-based observations. Expecting magic to happen and data to suddenly appear that the Sun has en electric field strong enough to influence the orbits of comets and thus spacecraft is ridiculous given the fact spacecraft can be guided accurately over tens of millions of kilometers ignoring this electric field, e.g. Rosetta and New Horizons .

 

[Reality Check]

Merging comet jets debunks the electric comet idea yet again

My bold. I thought that was a given??? ICE sublimating is generating the activity, no????

Your misunderstanding, Sol88: ICE sublimating is generating the activity, yes!!!!
Understanding exactly how the Fine structure in the comet’s jets is generated is an addition to the model of ice sublimating to form jets.

Comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko has shown activity in the form of jets for many months now, but the latest image reveals that the large-scale jets seen in previous images can now be resolved into many smaller jets emerging from the surface, which seem to merge together further away from the comet nucleus. Although much activity still emanates from the ‘neck’ region, jets are also appearing from both of the comet’s two lobes.
...
By understanding where exactly the jets are emerging, e.g., from the cliffs or plains, the scientists will learn exactly how the activity is generated. The scientists will also learn how the jets interact with the dust particles and gas coma that is surrounding the nucleus, but which is only clearly visible at much greater distances from the comet (for example, take a look at the coma as seen through the ground-based VLT).

Of course the totally useless electric comet idea has no way of explaining the fine structure of comet jets. This may even be yet another debunking of the electric comet idea. Electrical discharges have the sane charge and so the electric comet idea predicts that jets will not merge - but here are jets seemingly merging !

Sol88 any answer from your great expertise in astrophysics and the electric comet idea?

 

[Cygnus_X1]

Patience you must have, young Padawan.


Waiting we are for the data you speak of.

Nonsense.

The questions I posed above are answerable by data that has been available for YEARS, as has been noted by others in this thread.

Detailed ephemerides for planetary and comet orbits are publicly available. They would contain information about any claimed differences in trajectories based on gravity and electromagnetism.

Solar wind data is readily available.
Heliophysics Data Portal
which contains information on the charged particle flow speeds, magnetic and electric fields.

These motions must be consistent with the Electric Universe claimed charges and fields generated by the Sun, planets, asteroids and comets.

NEWS FLASH: We already know these data are inconsistent with EU's claimed heliospheric-scale charges and fields.
Sol88 is again trying to stall to hide the failures of ECH.

 

[Sol88]

Nonsense.

The questions I posed above are answerable by data that has been available for YEARS, as has been noted by others in this thread.

Detailed ephemerides for planetary and comet orbits are publicly available. They would contain information about any claimed differences in trajectories based on gravity and electromagnetism.

Solar wind data is readily available.
Heliophysics Data Portal
which contains information on the charged particle flow speeds, magnetic and electric fields.

These motions must be consistent with the Electric Universe claimed charges and fields generated by the Sun, planets, asteroids and comets.

NEWS FLASH: We already know these data are inconsistent with EU's claimed heliospheric-scale charges and fields.
Sol88 is again trying to stall to hide the failures of ECH.

Oh Sorry, I misunderstood you. You have the data from:

1. Ion Composition Analyser (ICA)
2. Ion and Electron Sensor (IES)
3. Langmuir Probe (LAP)
4. Fluxgate Magnetometer (MAG)
5. Mutual Impedance Probe (MIP),

Instruments ?????




Please, share the data from the first probe to orbit a comet with the rest of us mortals.


Some pretty picture from the OSIRIS camera would also be quite nice.

 

[Sol88]

Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,459


Originally Posted by Sol88
Would one expect Double Layers on/around/near a comet, Tusenfem?

And if there were, would the RPC be able to detect them?

Double layers can be created by a current in a natural plasma, e.g. in the auroral acceleration region where the density of the current carriers gets too small and acceleration is necessary, or they can be created on the interface between two plasmas with different characteristics (density, composition, temperature, ...). So it could well be that e.g. at the cometopause (where the incoming pressure of the solar wind equals the outgoing pressure of the cometary gas).

I am not aware of simulations showing that they are present, but the latest ones by Koenders et al. or Rubin et al. should be able to see if they occur in their models.

The have a size of tens of Debye lengths. So, depending on the latter, they would be able to be measured by LAP (the Langmuir Probe) onboard Rosetta. However, as we do not know where they will occur, it is rather difficult to look for them in the data (unlike e.g. measurments from Viking in the Earth's magnetosphere), because you basically have to look through all of the data and search and if you see a signal then you have to determine if it is a double layer, or an Alfvénic soliton, or ... or ...

Originally Posted by Sol88
Any progress on the cause of the singing comet?

There will be two abstract to the EGU, one by Richter et al. and one by Goetz et al.
I have not seen them yet, but the deadline is in 2 days, I will probably get them tomorrow.

__________________

 

[Haig]

Of course the totally useless electric comet idea has no way of explaining the fine structure of comet jets. This may even be yet another debunking of the electric comet idea. Electrical discharges have the sane charge and so the electric comet idea predicts that jets will not merge - but here are jets seemingly merging !

Sol88 any answer from your great expertise in astrophysics and the electric comet idea?

Think again Reality Check

Where exactly does it say (as you claim) "Electrical discharges have the sane charge and so the electric comet idea predicts that jets will not merge" in ANY EU / PC source ?

You CAN'T because there isn't one !

No wonder the ROSETTA team are SO reluctant and SO slow to release many more images. The images DON'T support mainstream comet theory hypothesis

FINE STRUCTURE IN THE COMET’S JETS

In the first OSIRIS image release of 2015, the team provides an unprecedented look at the finer details of 67P/C-G’s dust jets.

Comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko has shown activity in the form of jets for many months now, but the latest image reveals that the large-scale jets seen in previous images can now be resolved into many smaller jets emerging from the surface, which seem to merge together further away from the comet nucleus. Although much activity still emanates from the ‘neck’ region, jets are also appearing from both of the comet’s two lobes.

Some very telling comments ...

Sovereign Slave says:
16/01/2015 at 17:05
This is a truly phenomenal picture! Thanks for posting Emily. We can only hope that the Osiris team is loosening their gorilla grip on “their” pictures.
Interesting language being attributed to the jets in this article, “fine structure” and “merging” in particular. This strongly implies some kind of organizing dynamic that is arranging the finer jets into larger jets. If the smaller jets were caused by explosive sublimation, by all scientifically valid standards the gas/dust should be dispersing with distance, not merging into larger columnized structures. As the article says, the scientists are now faced with an exciting mystery that they will be studying so they can determine what might be causing this. But based on this article, I believe we can now safely conclude that there is a totally new, previously unknown and unanticipated comet dynamic that is acknowledged to have the power to organize dust into large jet structures within a vacuum. This discovery is obviously outside the standard model, so before ruling anything out, it seems the question becomes, “What are all the known phenomena that could create patterns of organized structure within a vacuum, and can any of them account for these jet structures?” And I get the sneaking suspicion that this time it will stretch all limits of believability to fall back to the common ad hoc explanations of sublimation, supernatural gravity, shock waves, bow shock, or any of the other standby explanations within the standard model theory box.

originalJohn says:
16/01/2015 at 17:59
Absolutely right Sovereign Slave and well said. As you and I know this merging behaviour is standard in plasma current filaments, for one.

The Electric Universe: Part I Bodies and Circuits

The electromagnetic forces in currents squeeze the conducting channels into thin thread-like filaments. These filaments attract each other in pairs, but when they get close, instead of merging, they spiral around each other

 

[Haig]

Visible Jet Sources!
COMET ON 10 JANUARY 2015 – NAVCAM

Steve Kasian
17/01/2015 05:28
Visible Jet Sources!
Dead center there are 2 distinct jets visible exiting their source! Based on the distance to the nearest shadow terminator, it would appear that the sunlight is illuminating these jets within mere feet of their source at the surface. These are the first jets this narrow to be seen thus far that can be seen all the way down to their source. Unfortunately, the source is in shadow and can't be seen. I've increased the brightness & contrast to make it as visible as possible here:

http://postimg.org/image/6cqp7q0lx/

Interesting to see the source of these two jets is in shadow in an area of the neck of 67P


Rosetta Mission Update | 67P—The Violent Birth of a Comet

Published on 16 Jan 2015
The electric comet idea forces us to consult the astronomical testimony of our earlier forebears, where independent accounts, told with different words and different symbols in different parts of the world, convey a story of planetary catastrophe.

Wal Thornhill: An Electric Cosmology for the 21st Century | EU Workshop

This talk by Wal Thornhill at the EU Workshop Nov 14-16, 2014 offers a compendium of the things that scientifically curious people need to know in order to see the electric force in its dynamic role from microcosm to macrocosm.

The Electric Comet hypothesis

http://www.internationalskeptics.co...rums/imagehosting/thum_3823654b2996d15486.gif
http://www.internationalskeptics.co...rums/imagehosting/thum_3823654b4601a47a76.jpg
http://www.internationalskeptics.co...om/forums/imagehosting/3823654b460a2d7771.jpg
http://www.internationalskeptics.co...rums/imagehosting/thum_3823654b97f4b40b71.jpg
http://www.internationalskeptics.co...rums/imagehosting/thum_3823654a9a9a15c700.jpg

 

[tusenfem]

And what exactly is this highly over-attenuated picture of the "source region" of two jets showing us according to the electric comet phantasey?
Is Haig or Sol88 or any other thunderdolt going to do an EC analysis of this image? Show us how the discharge is happening from where to where?
Is Haig or Sol88 or any other thunderdolt going to do an EC analysis of any of the available comet data in PDS or PSA?
Enough "pretty" pictures and content free words.

Well, at least on friday the Science special issue is coming out.

 

[Haig]

And what exactly is this highly over-attenuated picture of the "source region" of two jets showing us according to the electric comet phantasey?
Is Haig or Sol88 or any other thunderdolt going to do an EC analysis of this image? Show us how the discharge is happening from where to where?
Is Haig or Sol88 or any other thunderdolt going to do an EC analysis of any of the available comet data in PDS or PSA?
Enough "pretty" pictures and content free words.

Well, at least on friday the Science special issue is coming out.

Oh Dear ! tusenfem, another "surprise" for mainstream to try to spin

Surely you or Tom can explain this ? but lets not ask RC he just keeps getting mixed up with his memories of EU stuff


A great example of this but in a much larger scale can be seen in great detail on an Electric Comet known to the Ancients called the God of War ... There is a short version (14.41 mins) and a much more detailed one (1hr 23 mins) Enjoy


The Lightning-Scarred Planet Mars | Clip #2


The Lightning Scarred Planet, Mars (Full Documentary)

 

[tusenfem]

I could explain it but why? You would not understand or believe it anyway.

 

[tusenfem]

I could explain it but why? You would not understand or believe it anyway.

Is it new? Yes, of course it is new because we have never before visited a comet at this stage of its development.
Is it surprising that jets interact and merge? No. not really, what else would one expect when many jets in a small region emerge, that they don't interact or merge into larger structures? Collimation is not perfect and emission angle is not the same for different sources, so it would be very very strange if they would not interact.

 

[Ziggurat]

Patience you must have, young Padawan.


Waiting we are for the data you speak of.

I have a model for electric comet theorists: they're crackpots completely uninterested in actual science. Using this model, I can make a quantitative prediction regarding electric comet theorists:

New data on comets will continue to pour in, but they will still make zero quantitative predictions.

Let's wait and see if my model's predictions are accurate. Will the evidence support or falsify my model?

 

[phunk]

Visible Jet Sources!
COMET ON 10 JANUARY 2015 – NAVCAM

Steve Kasian
17/01/2015 05:28
Visible Jet Sources!
Dead center there are 2 distinct jets visible exiting their source! Based on the distance to the nearest shadow terminator, it would appear that the sunlight is illuminating these jets within mere feet of their source at the surface. These are the first jets this narrow to be seen thus far that can be seen all the way down to their source. Unfortunately, the source is in shadow and can't be seen. I've increased the brightness & contrast to make it as visible as possible here:

So, not visible jet sources.

Interesting to see the source of these two jets is in shadow in an area of the neck of 67P

If the source was an electrical discharge, wouldn't it being in shadow be the ideal way to observe it?

 

[ben m]

If the source was an electrical discharge, wouldn't it being in shadow be the ideal way to observe it?

And: don't electrical discharges seek out the protruding points on an object, not the deepest pockets?

And: don't ... never mind.

Y'know, like when the Bad Astronomer would review a sci-fi movie and try to compare the on-screen spaceship physics with real physics? That can be fun. ECH criticism is not even fun. It's like pointing out physics errors in Axe Cop*.

*Axe Cop was (is?) a webcomic with art by a professional and stories by his 5-year-old brother.

 

[Haig]

I could explain it but why? You would not understand or believe it anyway.

Ok, I'm a numpty but try me anyway. I'm open to facts.

Is it new? Yes, of course it is new because we have never before visited a comet at this stage of its development.
Is it surprising that jets interact and merge? No. not really, what else would one expect when many jets in a small region emerge, that they don't interact or merge into larger structures? Collimation is not perfect and emission angle is not the same for different sources, so it would be very very strange if they would not interact.

As I understand the mainstream view on comet jets they think they are a supersonic jet of gas and dust. So why would that NOT just fan out in the vacuum of space ? And, why should a supersonic jet of gas and dust stay collimated and interact with other jets ?

It seems ALL very E / M to me.

Please explain further with sources if you can, I'm really curious as to how mainstream assimilate this new data.

So, not visible jet sources.

Yea but, Steve Kasian did suggest "that the sunlight is illuminating these jets within mere feet of their source at the surface." The best I've seen so far

If the source was an electrical discharge, wouldn't it being in shadow be the ideal way to observe it?

Sure, I take your point. Early days yet and remember 67P wasn't suppose to be active until the summer 2015 !!! So these JETS are really weak just now and their true nature will (I expect) become much more obvious in a few short months, if not sooner

 

[ben m]

It seems ALL very E / M to me.

Why is that? Because I can't think of any realistic configuration of fields, charges, and currents which would look like that.

 

[Ziggurat]

Why is that? Because I can't think of any realistic configuration of fields, charges, and currents which would look like that.

That's because you understand electromagnetism. To people who do not, it all seems so magical. It can do things they don't understand, so it seems like it should be able to do anything, and therefore everything which they don't understand must be electromagnetic.

 

[tusenfem]

a 2013 paper on the collimation of the jets of comet borrelli www.planetary.brown.edu/pdfs/4623.pdf

 

[ben m]

That's because you understand electromagnetism. To people who do not, it all seems so magical. It can do things they don't understand, so it seems like it should be able to do anything, and therefore everything which they don't understand must be electromagnetic.

So the ECH understanding of E\&M is like a B-movie special-effects-artists's understanding of lasers. "A laser is a glowing beam that can do things! Lassos, lightsabers, tractor beams, jail-cell bars? Sure, looks like a laser to me."