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Continuation Part 12: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Why this question?
The question is asked reasonably to find a reasonable and commonplace explanation for an existing fact.
If you have not read all the detective stories by GK Chesterton you may have difficulty grasping this concept.

I hope you will have time for a reasonably extended answer to my post 2018 because I have put much thought into this over the years.
 
You are a funny guy Machiavelli. So your "proof" is Micheli's assertions!!!!!

You realize, don't you, that Micheli also said the murders were not premeditated.

Also Mignini said the murders were not premeditated. The prosecution didn't push any premeditation charge. Mignini charged them with non-premeditated murder.

Micheli also dismissed as fantasy the motive that Mignini brought to trial - the Halloween induced ritualistic killing.

Mignini did not make any argument of ritualistic killing. He made an argument of a killing during a "festino" (a little party) that was drug-fuelled and went out of control turning into a sexual aggression.

The Halloween speculations are conjectures about how it happened that they chose that night for their "little party" plan.
 
Your life as a poster is in a world populated by straw men. The thoughts expressed as conjectures to descrbe possible details of a motive - on a crime where, btw, there is obviously no rational motive - are, to any reasonable person, irrelevant. But if you can't see that, what can we do? The reversal of logical value of things, as a pervasive practice, seems to me one among the distinguished features of your modus operandi as a poster, seems very deeply rooted and maybe it's part of your charachter, who knows. I'm not saying this as a snarky comment but as a consideration, for why I believe the reasonable impossiblity for me to explain something to you. It's not the only remarkable aspect of your method, but one of them, in my opinion, and may be a cognitive method rather than a calculated strategy. You think the case was based on Halloween and Manga and on a Satanic ritual theory, and based on this kind of assumption you think the prosecution "lost". You think that Nencini attributes Y-haplotypes to women and that Massei found that the suspects where psychologically normal. It's your world that works like that. You love this freedom to pick bits and crooked fragments and draw new pictures of the world rom them. I will not attempt to change your perception of the world. I note: evidently Judge Micheli must have seen things very differently from you, as. as you did remark, he accepted Mignini's case entirely, convicted and sent to trial all three as charged, as you well know.

Now you are an amateur psychologist.

First things first. Did Micheli, or did Micheli not describe the Hallowe'en ritualistic motive as a fantasy?

Please point to the post I made where I said the case was based on these sorts of things? In my view, the case was based on DNA analysis, which was only convincing because Massei refused to allow independent review of Stefanoni's work. Massei tried to make it a judicial fact that Stefanoni's work must be correct, because that's what she told him. It also included three superwitnesses recruited many months after the event itself. That's the case.

The Hellmann court, in my view, came to the right conclusions based on an independent review of the DNA, and saw the three superwitnesses for what they were. That's where this case should have ended.

Your life as a poster is to minimalize everything damning to Mignini - in this case, to suggest that Mignini's Hallwe'en ritual motive is now unimportant. Strange - did you think that way before or after Micheli described it as fanstasy.

Still, Micheli did send AK and RS off to trial. This is not about me, this is about a system where a judge can describe a prosecutor as having fantasies, and still send the case on to trial. (I note in your ad hominem against me, you have not disputed the claim of what Micheli said about Mignini.)

There is no rational motive? I agree that one is not necessarily needed to convict - but that leaves it as even more strange that judges and prosecutors seem to need to have one, to fit around their ever-changing analysis of the facts. So it is no wonder that someone like you would post that motive is irrelevant; because that is part of the weakness of this wrongful prosecution.

Hallowe'en ritual killing, which even Micheli said was fantasy.

A sex-game gone wrong, which even Massei said was wrong, Massei said the motive was Rudy's, Rudy's lust hardly needed encouragement.

An argument over pooh in the toilet - that was Crini's in Florence in 2013.

An argument over rent money, this one was Nencini: the sole source of this motive was none other than Rudy Guede who never gave testimony.

So it it no wonder you, as a poster, would argue against motive being important in this case: there are just so many of them to choose from.

And lastly, when cornered, you lapse into ad hominem. It simply is not "strawman" that Micheli said what he said about the Hallowe'en ritual - he said it was fantasy. You haven't even addressed that!

It's so "Machiavelli" to argue this way.
 
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Also Mignini said the murders were not premeditated. The prosecution didn't push any premeditation charge. Mignini charged them with non-premeditated murder.
What, then, did Mignini said about why the knife was transported?

Mignini did not make any argument of ritualistic killing. He made an argument of a killing during a "festino" (a little party) that was drug-fuelled and went out of control turning into a sexual aggression.

The Halloween speculations are conjectures about how it happened that they chose that night for their "little party" plan.

I simply disbelieve you. T me this sounds like something a losing lawyer would say about a point once relied upon, which was debunked. The lawyer would claim it had been never that important.

And..... you bring no evidence to support your assertions.
 
Sollecito will not receive a disproportionate punishment for his defamation. But anyway making a claim of disproportionate punishment implies the admission that the defamation was committed.
The charge of defamation in Sollecito's case is the reporting of false facts about people, not expresing criticism and opinions. Either the defamatory allegations he reports are true, or they are false. If they are false (they are) he deserves to be convicted. Independently on the punishment, he would be convicted in almost any European country.

{Highlighting added to quote.}

No. Once more a complete logical error in the highlighted sentence. One may receive a disproportionate punishment while being completely innocent of any defamation. One may be punished simply for reporting the truth, for example.

What I wrote (if you are attempting to misquote my statement) is:

So when posters here ask what is the prediction for the defamation suit brought by Mignini against Raffaele Sollecito, without satirical intent, I can say that I expect the most negative consequences for Mr. Sollecito, and in due time an application to the ECHR. The judgment from the ECHR will find Italy has once more violated Convention Article 10....

The highlighted words in my quote means that, even though Mr. Sollecito committed no defamation and only wrote the truth (as far as I know), the biased, perverse, and despotic Italian judicial system is highly likely to act against him.

If the Italian judiciary finds that there was no defamation, I will be pleasantly surprised. But quite frankly, if one reads the statement from the human rights representatives of the Organization of Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), the United Nations, and the Council of Europe criticizing the laws and practices relating to defamation cases in Italy, one must fear another miscarriage of justice in this defamation case against Mr. Sollecito.

I do not believe that the Italian judiciary on the whole can or will distinguish truth from defamation.
 
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One thing we can agree on is that whatever else is true about the interrogations of the 5th and 6th, nothing that Ms Knox said or was alleged to have said, or signed, helped her in any way, shape or form. What emerged from the interrogations was what got her arrested.

According to you (from earlier posts), as a non-co-operating witness, if Ms Knox had said nothing at all, she would have been arrestable.

So, in order to help herself to the greatest extent she could have helped herself, on the night of the 5th/6th November, what could Ms Knox have said or done? What options did she have that would have permitted her to leave the questura, freely, without being arrested or legally detained?

(...)

Are you suggesting that she lied to the police, accusing an innocent person, as an attempt to say something that would allow her to leave the questura without being arrested?

Because if this is what you suggest, then you would accuse her of calunnia, and convict her on the same grounds on which Hellmann-Zanetti court did.

Ad for me, if I happened to find myself in a situation with police officers who are making questions and they appear to be not believing what I told them, and if I feel that I am becoming the object of their suspicion, and I am innocent, there might be a couple of things that I thought would be left to do. I may answer presenting them my testimony again, or as an alternative I may chose to not answer, as a cautionary move, demand to wait in detention at the police awaiting for my lawyer.
But something that I would certainly not decide to do, is to accuse an innocent man, put together another more elaborate false statement, and then write an additional series of preposterous false testimonies. Against other people, among which an innocent.

The Supreme Court, based on the considerations above, thought that the Hellmann-Zanetti motive for calunnia was not feasible. Walking freely out of the questura is a possible motive, but not a reasonable one. Innocent people simply don't do that, even less after a 2 and1/2-hour questiong.
 
Are you suggesting that she lied to the police, accusing an innocent person, as an attempt to say something that would allow her to leave the questura without being arrested?

Because if this is what you suggest, then you would accuse her of calunnia, and convict her on the same grounds on which Hellmann-Zanetti court did.

Ad for me, if I happened to find myself in a situation with police officers who are making questions and they appear to be not believing what I told them, and if I feel that I am becoming the object of their suspicion, and I am innocent, there might be a couple of things that I thought would be left to do. I may answer presenting them my testimony again, or as an alternative I may chose to not answer, as a cautionary move, demand to wait in detention at the police awaiting for my lawyer.
But something that I would certainly not decide to do, is to accuse an innocent man, put together another more elaborate false statement, and then write an additional series of preposterous false testimonies. Against other people, among which an innocent.

The Supreme Court, based on the considerations above, thought that the Hellmann-Zanetti motive for calunnia was not feasible. Walking freely out of the questura is a possible motive, but not a reasonable one. Innocent people simply don't do that, even less after a 2 and1/2-hour questiong.

Can you misunderstand what all of us are arguing this much. . . .

She was mentally messed up under question and not in her right mind. The police accused Patrick of being the murderer and she agreed under pressure.
The real people who committed calunnia are the police.
 
No. Once more a complete logical error in the highlighted sentence. One may receive a disproportionate punishment while being completely innocent of any defamation. One may be punished simply for reporting the truth, for example
.

But the EC observations you quoted regarding Italy are only about the disproportionate punishment (on some cases); you don't report any EC statement complaining that people completely innocent were convicted. You reported only about "disproportionate punishment".
In the absence of any claim of the contrary by EC organs, this is to be understood as indicating people who were actually guilty of defamation (there were found guilty, the EC organs d not complain about the specific element of finding of guilt).

The highlighted words in my quote means that, even though Mr. Sollecito committed no defamation and only wrote the truth (as far as I know), the biased, perverse, and despotic Italian judicial system is highly likely to act against him.

This merely is prejudicial statement against the Italian system. The only aspect that EC points out is cases of "disproportionate punishment" provided for by some statutes, not cases of completely innocent people convicted by biased, perverse and despotic authorities.

If the Italian judiciary finds that there was no defamation, I will be pleasantly surprised. But quite frankly, if one reads the statement from the human rights representatives of the Organization of Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), the United Nations, and the Council of Europe criticizing the laws and practices relating to defamation cases in Italy, one must fear another miscarriage of justice in this defamation case against Mr. Sollecito.

Quite frankly, the criticism is only about "excessive punishment" provided for by criminal defamation laws, not about innocent people convicted.
 
Can you misunderstand what all of us are arguing this much. . . .

She was mentally messed up under question and not in her right mind. The police accused Patrick of being the murderer and she agreed under pressure.
The real people who committed calunnia are the police.

Neither Machiavelli, nor the Italian courts for that matter, can go there. As allegedly Judge Hellmann eventually quipped, to acquit Knox of calunnia would be very very close to establishing a judicial truth that the PLE were criminals.

What is interesting is that now in other police jurisdictions, there is far, far more awareness of both false confessions and police-induced statements. There was one television drama which highlighted this. A cop released the suspect because the cop realized that the only information being returned to her, was what she herself had brought into the room.
 
Can you misunderstand what all of us are arguing this much. . . .

She was mentally messed up under question and not in her right mind. The police accused Patrick of being the murderer and she agreed under pressure.
The real people who committed calunnia are the police.

What you (as a commmunity) say is not consistent between one poster and another. You say different things.

I think your "theory" (itself intrinsically inconsistent) is unsupported and disproven, as I said many times.
 
three strikes against the inference of Knox's blood from 36I

Meredith’s DNA would be an extremely significant finding even without any Knox’s DNA, because there is no plausible justification for Kercher’s DNA on an object in a drawer inside Sollecito’s apartment, whereas Knox’s DNA on the handle itself would have rather poor relevance (except for trace "I" which has some more relevance because it shows to be likely from Knox’s blood rather than from epithelial cells – Knox’s blood being another topic which you fail to consider; note that it was not known at the time).
Can you supply any scientific support for this astonishing statement? In addition, DNA is known to transfer during packaging and transport (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21546329abstract). Therefore, inferences based upon location of the DNA are dubious. Beyond that, 36I is a mixture; so there must be some unknown person bleeding according to this logic.
 
What, then, did Mignini said about why the knife was transported?

I simply disbelieve you. T me this sounds like something a losing lawyer would say about a point once relied upon, which was debunked. The lawyer would claim it had been never that important.

And..... you bring no evidence to support your assertions.

Disbelieve me about what assertion specifically?
That Mignini pushed charges of non remeditated murder shouldn't be a matter of belief: you are supposed to have the trial papers, you have been having the judges' ruling for years.

Mignini's arguments are also known, they are incompatible with a ritualistic killing. So...
 
Desert Fox said:
Can you misunderstand what all of us are arguing this much. . . .

She was mentally messed up under question and not in her right mind. The police accused Patrick of being the murderer and she agreed under pressure.
The real people who committed calunnia are the police.

What you (as a commmunity) say is not consistent between one poster and another. You say different things.

I think your "theory" (itself intrinsically inconsistent) is unsupported and disproven, as I said many times.

Once again, one of Machiavelli's assertions are proven wrong. Granted you start your sentence with, "I think....." which means your ignorance is yours and yours alone.

http://www.sciencealert.com/people-can-be-convinced-they-committed-a-non-existant-crime-in-just-three-hours

“Our findings show that false memories of committing crime with police contact can be surprisingly easy to generate, and can have all the same kinds of complex details as real memories,” Shaw said in a press release. “All participants need to generate a richly detailed false memory is three hours in a friendly interview environment, where the interviewer introduces a few wrong details and uses poor memory-retrieval techniques.”​

I know, I know, Machiavelli's yet-buts will be legion. Maybe Knox cracked under the pressure of all that good treatment John Follain narrates, the camomile tea and biscuits did its job!
 
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What you (as a commmunity) say is not consistent between one poster and another. You say different things.

I think your "theory" (itself intrinsically inconsistent) is unsupported and disproven, as I said many times.

When I have presented example after example of what I stated being a problem with you only asserting a position, my position has in no way been disproven anywhere except in your own mind.
 
Disbelieve me about what assertion specifically?
That Mignini pushed charges of non remeditated murder shouldn't be a matter of belief: you are supposed to have the trial papers, you have been having the judges' ruling for years.

Mignini's arguments are also known, they are incompatible with a ritualistic killing. So...

Once again, you have avoided the question. Did Micheli or did Micheli not say that the Hallowe'en ritualistic killing theory was a fantasy?
 
Neither Machiavelli, nor the Italian courts for that matter, can go there. As allegedly Judge Hellmann eventually quipped, to acquit Knox of calunnia would be very very close to establishing a judicial truth that the PLE were criminals.

What is interesting is that now in other police jurisdictions, there is far, far more awareness of both false confessions and police-induced statements. There was one television drama which highlighted this. A cop released the suspect because the cop realized that the only information being returned to her, was what she herself had brought into the room.

Of note, discussing recording on interviews. . . .
I stated that they could have simply used the microphone on a laptop if they did not have the proper set up. A podcast I was listening to, their primary microphone fails and they had their laptop mic as a backup. Quality was slightly poor but it was definitely understandable.
 
.

But the EC observations you quoted regarding Italy are only about the disproportionate punishment (on some cases); you don't report any EC statement complaining that people completely innocent were convicted. You reported only about "disproportionate punishment".
In the absence of any claim of the contrary by EC organs, this is to be understood as indicating people who were actually guilty of defamation (there were found guilty, the EC organs d not complain about the specific element of finding of guilt).



This merely is prejudicial statement against the Italian system. The only aspect that EC points out is cases of "disproportionate punishment" provided for by some statutes, not cases of completely innocent people convicted by biased, perverse and despotic authorities.



Quite frankly, the criticism is only about "excessive punishment" provided for by criminal defamation laws, not about innocent people convicted.

No. You are looking at one part of the article, and not the whole article, when you make these statements. Here is a part of the article that indicates non-defamatory statements are under legalistic attack in Italy:

Meanwhile the instrumental use of defamation suits and claims for damages continues to hamper media freedom in Italy, as documented by the long list of journalists targeted by spurious legal actions published by Ossigeno per l’Informazione, an observatory which carries out valuable awareness raising work on threats against journalists in the country.

The word "spurious" means (in the given context): "being such in appearance only and made or manufactured with the intention of committing fraud".

Source of definition: http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/spurious

In other words, in Italy, false claims of defamation are made to look like real claims to squelch free speech and the freedom of the press.

The article also discusses that criminalization of defamation is an attack by Italy on free speech and freedom of the press and a violation of international human rights standards:

We, our predecessors and other bodies of the Council of Europe, OSCE and the United Nations, have called on the Italian authorities for decades to reform anachronistic legislation which stifles criticism and muzzles the media toward a modern set of provisions which would strengthen free expression by removing prison sentences and excessive fines....

But not everything is lost. Italy can still reverse a situation which puts it in breach of agreed international human rights standards, including those established by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, the European Convention on Human Rights and the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union. The best way to achieve this would be to stop considering defamation as a criminal offence altogether.

Thus, your point of contention is not with my statements, but really with a whole body of international standards, to which Italy is obligated to conform based upon its agreement to solemn treaties.
 
:)

So let me understand: you make an argument that the books are a "powerful demonstration of innocence".

And the argument is based on... intention! It is not based on the content of the books (!!!).
The books thus are a powerful demonstration of innocence independently of what they say.

Correct?
Yes correct. The argument is steeped in the mind set of a person writing a book, which is generally, with the notable exception of OJ Simpson's an outpouring of best truthful endeavours.

I fully accept you will roll about laughing at my concept, but that will be because you are reading my idea with bias in your heart.
 
Machiavelli,

I was reminded of Karl Fontenot, who confessed in two hours. When I reread Dr. Kassin's article I was struck by this passage on the process of internalization. "(1) There is a suspect who is rendered highly vulnerable to manipulation as a function of dispositional characteristics (e.g., young, naïve, mentally retarded, suggestible, or otherwise impaired) and there are more transient factors associated with the crime, custody, and interrogation (e.g., extreme stress, feelings of isolation, sleep deprivation, the influence of drugs). (2) Knowingly or unknowingly, the police confront the suspect with false but allegedly objective and incontrovertible evidence of his or her involvement—evidence in the form of a failed polygraph, an eyewitness, a fingerprint, a shoeprint, or a DNA sample. (3) Often with guidance from police, the suspect reconciles his or her lack of memory with the alleged evidence by presuming that he or she had blacked out, dissociated, repressed, or otherwise failed to recollect the event."
AND
"...Ofshe (1989) identified a number of common interrogation tactics, such as exhibiting strong and unwavering certainty about suspect’s guilt, isolating the suspect from all familiar social contacts and outside sources of information, conducting sessions that are lengthy and emotionally intense, presenting false but allegedly incontrovertible proof of the suspect’s guilt, offering the suspect a ready physical or psychological explanation for why he or she does not remember the crime, and applying implicit and explicit pressure on the suspect, in the form of promises and threats, to comply with the demand for a confession." (highlighting mine)

Amazing how Amanda was able to recreate this by manipulating Donnino into coming up with the injury story. The little vixen. The cunning little vixen.

The latest statement creates an improper straw man. In fact, the classical situation of the "false confessions" described by Kassin is not reacreated at all by events of our case. The statemet - just one statement - by Anna Donnino is the only element that allows you to try find a contact between the situations, which are in fact obviously different.

I may ask you, for example:

Do you really believe that merely offering a possible diplomatic chance of changing the story by setting a possible hypotheses, as Anna Donnino did, is enough to cause a false memory syndrome?
With what probability?
And, given the example of Karl Fontenot - who suffered of a true false memory syndrome - don't you notice any little difference?
Can't you see, for example, that Karl never became a reliable witness, she never recovered her true memory and was unable to call her memories "false" (false memory syndrom is a serious clinical event, not a joke that the patient can handle).
Note also how false confessions are in fact "confessions", the suspects internalize a feeling of guilt, while Knox's is a a projection, and a calculated diverting the investigation from her by placing false evidence.
Notice also that Knox was a manipulative liar before and after the false accusation (in the Nov. 4. letter as well as in the Dec. 17. interrogation).
I may say many other things, but let's cut it. Just another point: by probabilities, how frequent common lies by suspects are, compared with an "internalized" confessions by unstable subjects after 2 hours la Karl Fontenot?
 
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