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Continuation Part 12: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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ITALY AND THE ECHR
(ANNUAL REPORT 2011 - ITALY)
(March 2011)
Prof. Stefania NINATTI and Marilena GENNUSA

www.ius-publicum.com/repository/uploads/12_05_2011_18_31

Precisely in this new constitutional context the ICC {Italian Constitutional Court} radically modifies its approach on the
ECHR legal status. And it is a two-staged change.

The first stage is the so-called “October Revolution” (decisions no. 348 and 349, both delivered in October 2007). In these judgements, the ICC acknowledges the legal status of the ECHR within the domestic legal order in the light of the reformed Art. 117, par. 1 It. Const.4 This is its reasoning: first of all, thanks to the reference to the obligations deriving from international obligations ex Art. 117, par. 1 It. Const., the international treaties signed by Italy become an interposed parameter of the judicial review on legislation. Accordingly, the Constitutional Court is the only institution competent to declare unconstitutional an internal law which contrasts with the ECHR. The ordinary and administrative judges, on the contrary, cannot disapply the internal conflicting provision but must refer the question to the Constitutional Court which holds the competence of the Conventional review on legislation. The only power that is granted to the ordinary and administrative courts – indeed, a powerful instrument – is the possibility to provide an interpretation of the conflicting internal law consistent with the ECHR provisions (s.c. “interpretazione conforme”, in Italian). Secondly, the ICC states its preliminary power to evaluate the consistency of the ECHR provisions with the Constitution, due to the sub-constitutional status of the interposed norms that derive from the international obligations5. If on one hand constitutional supremacy is recognized, on the other hand, the ICC acknowledges the far reaching monopoly held by Strasbourg to interpret the Conventional provisions. According to the ECHR legal system, in fact, the Strasbourg judge is the only competent body to interpret the ECHR and to guarantee the constant application of the ECHR. In other words, the object of the ICC judicial review is the ECHR as it “lives” in the creative interpretation of the ECtHR and not the bare ECHR provisions by themselves.
 
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For the above said reasons, it is not reasonable, it is rather idiotic to assume the police orchestrated the publishing of a photo in a British tabloid.

The article says they were released by police:

Niall Firth Daily Mail 01/16/08 said:
This is the grim, blood-soaked scene inside the Italian apartment where British student Meredith Kercher was sexually assaulted and brutally murdered.

In chilling new photographs released by Italian police today, the full scale of the horror that confronted police when they entered the apartment in Perugia becomes clear.
 
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I love the fact that the police located a witness who claimed that Lumumba's bar, Le Chic, was closed the evening when the police needed to claim it was closed. It was later proven to be open. A Swiss professor was questioned by the police or prosecutor for many hours (was it 8 hours?) before they accepted the fact that Lumumba was in his bar that evening talking with the professor for several hours.

Whatever happened to the witness who testified to what the police wanted him to say? Who are the police who "found" him? What is the relationship between the witness and the police officers who "located" him? (Machiavelli, no matter what you think of guilt or innocence, as an Italian citizen you should be concerned about this smelly aspect of the case!)

Are these police part of the same police squad who stopped searching outdoors for the murder knife once senior police took a big, "clean" knife from Raffaele's kitchen drawer?

Seven witnesses claimed they were at the bar since about 22:15. One witness said he was at the bar at 23:20.
At 20:38 Lumumba's cell phone pinged one of the cells that cover the cottage area.
Two witnesses testified that the bar was closed at "short before 20:00".
The existence of a Swiss professor who claimed the bar was open and Lumumba was there between 20:00 and 22:00 was known (also on newspapers) since Nov. 1, so this is also a very early testimony, found by the prosecution exactly at the same time of the other witnesses.

If you look carefully, you may notice that the timings from the prosecution first findings about Le Chic bar do not support at all the prosecution scenario against Lumumba, which assumed the murder to have been committed after 20:40 and most probably towards 23:00.

RS and AK had an alibi at about 20:40, Sollecito had testified that Amanda went out late and returned at around 2am, then he changed something about the time of her return in his subsequent testimony but makes little difference, basically they were arrested based on accusations that focus on a late time frame.
 
The only point is that the pro-Knoxes who accuse the police of "lying" because they orchestrated a press operation using the bathroom photo, are liars.

No, we're not. Dan-O has even posted pictures showing a 'short fat perp' taking pictures of the bathroom in the aftermath of that chemical being used on the walls which gave the impression it was a blood-soaked mess.

That picture showed up in the Daily Mail but wasn't a part of the case file and there's video of the guy who took them, a member of the police team from the second trip.

You're starting to realize this is all going to go pear-shaped eventually, aren't you? Is that the reason for the ridiculous lies at this stage of the game?
 
The article says they were released by police:

But the DailyMail clearly reports the pictures as released by British photo agency Barcroft Media (and in fact we - at PMF - had found those pictures for sale at Barcroft Media too, albeit the copyright was illegitimate).

So it's Barcroft Media who released the pictures to the tabloid.
 
No, we're not. Dan-O has even posted pictures showing a 'short fat perp' taking pictures of the bathroom in the aftermath of that chemical being used on the walls which gave the impression it was a blood-soaked mess
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You are. This doesn't demonstrate anything. As I said, it is obvious that someone took the photos (the person is not a perp - except in your defamaory lying words - he seems to be Domenico Giacinto Profazio, one of the many police officers who took photos). And obviously you can't have any evidence about the photos not being part of the investigation file (which is not the trial file).

(...) You're starting to realize this is all going to go pear-shaped eventually, aren't you? Is that the reason for the ridiculous lies at this stage of the game?

I only see a mass of nonsensical myths, all lies, by the pro-Knox supporters.
The story of police publishing a bathroom picture as part of a media campaign is a disproven as well idiotic false accusation, one of the many Knoxophilian lies.
 
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But the DailyMail clearly reports the pictures as released by British photo agency Barcroft Media (and in fact we - at PMF - had found those pictures for sale at Barcroft Media too, albeit the copyright was illegitimate).

So it's Barcroft Media who released the pictures to the tabloid.

No, the police took them and the article says the police released them, which ought to have been the obvious inference regardless.
 
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You are. This doesn't demonstrate anything. As I said, it is obvious that someone took the photos (the person is not a perp - except in your defamaory lying words -

I cribbed that phrase from Dan-O, credit where credit is due! :p

he seems to be Domenico Giacinto Profazio, one of the many police officers who took photos). And obviously you can't have any evidence about the photos not being part of the investigation file (which is not the trial file).

I thought it was Profazio too at first, but I do believe we determined it was another guy instead. At any rate it's in the crime scene videos and I really don't care which short fat perp it was, that's your problem, not mine.


I only see a mass of nonsensical myths, all lies, by the pro-Knox supporters.
The story of police publishing a bathroom picture as part of a media campaign is a disproven as well idiotic false accusation, one of the many Knoxophilian lies.

Yawn.

What possible (legitimate) purpose could there have been to take pictures of that bathroom after it had been sprayed down with phenolphthalein and left to sit like that?
 
Machiavelli said:
The only point is that the pro-Knoxes who accuse the police of "lying" because they orchestrated a press operation using the bathroom photo, are liars.

No, we're not. Dan-O has even posted pictures showing a 'short fat perp' taking pictures of the bathroom in the aftermath of that chemical being used on the walls which gave the impression it was a blood-soaked mess.

That picture showed up in the Daily Mail but wasn't a part of the case file and there's video of the guy who took them, a member of the police team from the second trip.

You're starting to realize this is all going to go pear-shaped eventually, aren't you? Is that the reason for the ridiculous lies at this stage of the game?

You see, Machiavelli simply makes the assertion that the "Pro-Knoxers" are liars based on....... what?

It is based on his assertion, nothing more.

Kaosium even provides the proof in the form of a DailyMail article which says that the police released the photo.... and what does Machiavelli do?

MAchavelli makes further assertions, as if the one with the most assertions wins....

I only see a mass of nonsensical myths, all lies, by the pro-Knox supporters.
The story of police publishing a bathroom picture as part of a media campaign is a disproven as well idiotic false accusation, one of the many Knoxophilian lies.​

So lessee.... the DailyMail article implies that there was a police campaign, but Machiavelli calls it "disproven", without disproving it, and and "idiotic false accusation", when it looks a lot like an accusation with substance to it.

This is the pro-guilt lobby method. It would not be so disturbing except that this is the basis of reasoning of the Nencini report as well! Also, why did Massei say he believed Police Scientist Stefanoni? Because Stefanoni said so....

This is the method by which one finds guilt in this case.
 
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There is actually a very simple way for the police to do it.

The chief calls a press conference in front of the Questura with his detectives and flying squad leadership lined up alongside him (that is not without precedent) and proclaims to the public and the media that the defendants may or may not be guilty and should be regarded as innocent unless determined guilty by several courts and the Italian Supreme Court. (Italian Constitution, Art. 27.)

I'm also waiting for hell to freeze over!

This all depends on what the actual statements by the officials were. Usually there are press releases from the authorities, not merely lunch time conversations.

There are one or two cases (from Russia, IIRC) where the prosecutor and/or other official went on TV and said in effect, "X is guilty. It's only a matter of how long the sentence will be." And those TV shows were recorded, apparently. Violation of the presumption of innocence, since the trial was not finalized (in fact, had not begun).

The Italian Constitution does state that an accused person (defendant) is presumed innocent until finally sentenced (Art. 27):

Art. 27
Criminal responsibility is personal.
A defendant shall be considered not guilty until a final sentence has been
passed.
Punishments may not be inhuman and shall aim at re-educating the convicted.
Death penalty is prohibited (1).
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I can't really argue with you guys, because I kind of agree with the basic sentiment, but to me (ultimately), the media still has to take some responsibility for their actions or inactions.

But, I do agree with Strozzi's simple press conference solution, but you still can't force the media to cover or report it,

d

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No, it would be very easy to convict Knox based only on Donnino's testimony.
It would be also possible to convict her on her hand written notes alone, which, as she confirmed at the trial years later, she wrote "voluntarily" on her own initiative, and she gave voluntarily on her own initiative to the police.
But there is no reason anyway to assume that even the other statements are non-usable: they are all usable as evidence for the crime of calunnia, because she was not a suspect of that crime at the time and the crime itself didn't exist (so the other crimes were not even related to it).
There is no "Salduz principle" that would grant immunity from an action like Knox's calunnia; the Salduz principle is only about usability of self incriminating statement, it does not grant immunity from crimes.

IMO, there is a logical error in your quoted statement. If a person is observed committing a crime (for example, bank robbery) by, for example, the police, that person is incriminated (by the English language definition of the word: evidence or proof of having committed a crime). [It should be remembered that the ECHR official languages are English and French, the Salduz judgment is in English.]

Now calunnia is a crime that consists of a kind of statement. It is observed (by police) during an interrogation. Therefore, it is incriminating.

Furthermore, there was no lawyer present to give counsel to the person being interrogated (namely, Amanda Knox). And she was convicted of calunnia solely or largely on the basis of the incriminating statements she made while being interrogated or speaking to the prosecutor without a lawyer, or to the Memoriales (which in reality are disclaimers in English of the reliability of her statements) she wrote while in custody without a lawyer. Thus, by Salduz and subsequent ECHR case-law, there has been a violation of her Convention rights to a fair trial, under Article 6.3c with Article 6.1.

In addition, her statements during interrogation placed her in the cottage at the time of the murder after having let Patrick Lumumba enter the cottage. She had not previously reported such information to the police, which would be an obstruction of justice (US terminology). Thus those statements were incriminating on that basis.

ETA: There is nothing whatsoever in the ECHR case-law that says the incriminating statement must exactly pertain to what crime one is suspected of by the police; that is your concept alone.
 
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No, it would be very easy to convict Knox based only on Donnino's testimony.

Yet this is what even YOU said Donnino did.....

Machiavelli said:
"But what Donnino says is that Knox did not want to talk. As a mediator, she suggested that maybe Knox could have "removed" the traumatic experience: this is "mediation" since it means give Knox an opportunity and a safe justification for "forgetting" and thus for possibly change her story, so allow her to remember something new safely, without being implicitly accused of being a liar or presented as a liar.
This is called mediation, it's diplomacy, it's work of removal of psychological defence obstacles, and it's routine.
But in fact, this does not equate to describing Knox as confused."​
You would convict Knox on Donnino's testimony, when even you admit:
- Knox did not want to talk
- Donnino admits that the "traumatic experience" (of witnessing a killing) was not there for Knox, meaning that Knox was saying she had not been at the cottage! But because Donnino disbelieves that (Why? On what grounds?) Donnino decides on her own to help Knox recover a repressed memory.
- instead of translating/interpreting, Donnino psychologically counsels Knox to recover this repressed memory, a task that is not part of Donnino's pay grade.
- Donnino help Knox remember something "new" in a safe atmosphere
- this safe atmosphere was where Knox was the subject of an interrogation!!!!
- and to boot, Donnino is now not only a mediator, but a diplomat!​
On this you would convict Knox? Good for you Machiavelli.
 
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I can't really argue with you guys, because I kind of agree with the basic sentiment, but to me (ultimately), the media still has to take some responsibility for their actions or inactions.

But, I do agree with Strozzi's simple press conference solution, but you still can't force the media to cover or report it,

d

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The ECHR would determine who released the information and in what form (of wording). If the media invented statements not said by the officials, then the officials can release a press statement saying what they did say.

Furthermore, there are laws against unlimited press freedom relating to defamation in Europe. The media would probably not go out on a limb to call someone guilty without official support, IMO. Using the word "alleged" would protect the media from the potential for a defamation action (which is some European countries can be criminal, not merely civil).
 
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No, it would be very easy to convict Knox based only on Donnino's testimony.
It would be also possible to convict her on her hand written notes alone, which, as she confirmed at the trial years later, she wrote "voluntarily" on her own initiative, and she gave voluntarily on her own initiative to the police.
But there is no reason anyway to assume that even the other statements are non-usable: they are all usable as evidence for the crime of calunnia, because she was not a suspect of that crime at the time and the crime itself didn't exist (so the other crimes were not even related to it).
There is no "Salduz principle" that would grant immunity from an action like Knox's calunnia; the Salduz principle is only about usability of self incriminating statement, it does not grant immunity from crimes.

Again, there is a logical error. Donnino or any of the other police personnel can testify as to what Ms. Knox said. But those statements were made by the subject of an interrogation without a lawyer. They are simply not useable to convict someone, whether written down or witnessed. In Salduz, police stated he had confessed, other interrogated persons claimed (in pre-trial statements) he had committed the "crimes", and his confession was written. But ECHR found that there had been a violation of the Convention - an unfair trial, because Salduz had no lawyer when interrogated. (Indeed, the other witnesses also had no lawyers when they were interrogated, and they retracted their statements at trial, IIRC).
 
I love the fact that the police located a witness who claimed that Lumumba's bar, Le Chic, was closed the evening when the police needed to claim it was closed. It was later proven to be open. A Swiss professor was questioned by the police or prosecutor for many hours (was it 8 hours?) before they accepted the fact that Lumumba was in his bar that evening talking with the professor for several hours.

It was seven hours, and they didn't accept that alibi at the time! They would not back off Patrick until Rudy Guede was captured.

Fox/Times 11/12/07 said:
Police questioned a Swiss professor today who, together with other witnesses, said that he could back up Lumumba's claim that he was at his bar in Perugia on the evening of the murder. The professor, who has not been named, told police that he was at Lumumba's bar between 8 p.m. and 10 p.m.

Police questioned him for seven hours, but said that they had found his confirmation of Lumumba's alibi unconvincing. He was able to confirm that he had been at Lumumba's bar on the evening of the murder, but could not swear the bar owner had been present throughout. Giuseppe Sereni, Lumunba's lawyer, said he would produce 20 other witnesses to back up his client's alibi.

With respect to Bill Williams, this is the real Guilters Dilemma: why were police so adamant about Patrick Lumumba being there when the original statement was so confused and bereft of facts relevant to the murder and Amanda Knox had recanted the statements completely the next day?

Whatever happened to the witness who testified to what the police wanted him to say? Who are the police who "found" him? What is the relationship between the witness and the police officers who "located" him? (Machiavelli, no matter what you think of guilt or innocence, as an Italian citizen you should be concerned about this smelly aspect of the case!)

Are these police part of the same police squad who stopped searching outdoors for the murder knife once senior police took a big, "clean" knife from Raffaele's kitchen drawer?

All very good questions, I doubt you'll be getting any good answers.
 
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The ECHR would determine who released the information and in what form (of wording). If the media invented statements not said by the officials, then the officials can release a press statement saying what they did say.

Furthermore, there are laws against unlimited press freedom relating to defamation in Europe. The media would probably not go out on a limb to call someone guilty without official support, IMO. Using the word "alleged" would protect the media from the potential for a defamation action (which is some European countries can be criminal, not merely civil).
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Thank you Numbers, but I have to ask if your nom de plume (SP?) is in any way related to the US TV show by the same name?

Just curious and I apologize if you've already answered this,

Anyway, it will definitely be interesting to see if the ECHR does anything at all with this. Personally, I hope they do, but even if the "alleged" is somehow made mandatory, the public (a good percentage, in my opinion) still tends to side with authority, in my opinion also,

d

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You see, Machiavelli simply makes the assertion that the "Pro-Knoxers" are liars based on....... what?

It is based on his assertion, nothing more.

Kaosium even provides the proof in the form of a DailyMail article which says that the police released the photo.... and what does Machiavelli do?.

Nothing at all, because there is no need to say anything: the photos were published with a tag from Barcroft Media, as part of a stock, something which itself blows down any journalist statement about "police releasing photos" to the level of mere speculation. We know the photos were certainly not released to the journalist, since they bought them from Barcroft Media.

It is then absolutely ridiculous to assert that those were not part of the investigation file - and this seems to me a disingenuous confusion based on a wording change, a willful confusion between investigation file and case file.
 
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I can't really argue with you guys, because I kind of agree with the basic sentiment, but to me (ultimately), the media still has to take some responsibility for their actions or inactions.

But, I do agree with Strozzi's simple press conference solution, but you still can't force the media to cover or report it,

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To organize a press conference to read out an article of the Constitution would also be quite ridiculous. What's there to report about?
 
Nothing at all, because there is no need to say anything: the photos were published with a tag from Barcroft Media, as part of a stock, something which itself blows down any journalist statement about "police releasing photos" to the level of mere speculation. We know the photos were certainly not released to the journalist, since they bought them from Barcroft Media.

We also know Barcroft Media didn't take the pictures, the police did. The reporter says the police released the photos, which figures being as they were the ones who had them.

It is then absolutely ridiculous to assert that those were not part of the investigation file - and this seems to me a disingenuous confusion based on a wording change, a willful confusion between investigation file and case file.

Again, what possible legitimate forensic use would there be for pictures of the bathroom after it had been exposed to phenolphthalein and allowed to sit? You would get the same reaction in every bathroom, it would all turn the same color.

The only use for those pictures is to give a completely misleading impression to those unaware of the effects of blood tests, which is about all of the population...
 
From Salduz v. Turkey {emphasis added}:

55. Against this background, the Court finds that in order for the right to a fair trial to remain sufficiently “practical and effective” (see paragraph 51 above), Article 6 § 1 requires that, as a rule, access to a lawyer should be provided as from the first interrogation of a suspect by the police, unless it is demonstrated in the light of the particular circumstances of each case that there are compelling reasons to restrict this right. Even where compelling reasons may exceptionally justify denial of access to a lawyer, such restriction – whatever its justification – must not unduly prejudice the rights of the accused under Article 6 (see, mutatis mutandis, Magee, cited above, § 44). The rights of the defence will in principle be irretrievably prejudiced when incriminating statements made during police interrogation without access to a lawyer are used for a conviction.

The point is that Mach keeps misquoting Salduz. Note that it is "incriminating statements" that are at issue in the judgement, not "self-incriminating statements". There is a difference!

And if one thinks calunnia must always be incriminating, consider this hypothetical:

Z writes a letter to the Italian police, accusing X of murdering Y. But Z is careful to leave no incriminating evidence on the letter: the computer printer is from some distant location, not one associated with Z; Z wears gloves so as not to leave finger prints or DNA; Z does not lick the stamp or the envelop; and Z tricks someone into signing the letter with someone else's name (perhaps Niccolo Machiavelli!). And the letter is mailed from a distant town. So there is no incriminating evidence associated with the letter. The "perfect" crime of calunnia.

Contrast this perfect crime with the alleged crime of calunnia committed allegedly by Amanda Knox. The police knew who she was; as soon as they find out that Patrick Lumumba is not the murderer - he has a solid alibi (although they should have known sooner if they had relied on DNA evidence) - they know she has committed calunnia. She has incriminated herself. Except obviously the police were the ones who suggested, using coercive methods, that she name Lumumba.

But such details as coercion are of no consequence in Italy, and she must be convicted to protect the reputation of the police.
 
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