Continuation Part 12: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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What's amazing about your narrative about Mignini's participation in this, is how impotent you make Mignini, Machiavelli.

All that happens, according to you, is that he's passively carried along by others. For instance it was others who went after Curt & Edda Knox, and left out Follain.

It was the all powerful Amanda Knox who de facto directed and manipulated her own interrogation - leaving Mignini with egg on his face after through no fault of his own.

I now believe this is why you do not put the details of this case onto a timeline. Mignini really comes across as impotent as implied in you defence of him.

It's always someone else to blame.

Bill my post is not a "narrative", I just point out facts, which are incontrovertible yet apparently some on this forum still don't understand. A public prosecutor - any prosecutor - cannot start legal action for defamation as public prosecutor on his own initiative. Defamation is a charge that is started by a victim's querela, for its intrinsic nature. Only after that the prosecution can proceed. The same is for a charge of beating.

This is just the law.

It is always the offended party who takes the initiative of legal action for defamation. Mignini can take the initiative demanding a legal action for defamation as offended party, like anyone else, but not as a prosecutor. And not in Perugia.
 
What is the circumstance of Mignini's case against Raffaele and Gumbel?

Is it defamation or calunnia? Or something else? I know its related to Raf's book 'Honor Bound', but that's all I know.

What is this hearing coming up on January 22 supposed to accomplish?

Will the defendants Raf and Gumbel have an opportunity for discovery, and in general to defend their claims? Or is it a fait accompli that they lose?

How long will this case take to play out?

What's at stake? Prison or just money and pride?

There are two charges: defamation and contempt of court.

In the Jan 22 hearing a Florentine prosecutor will demand a preliminary judge to send Sollecito to trial (Sollecito may request short track and judgement).

What's at stake is basically money, but not exactly pride: rather a judicial truth, which may be used in arguments against Knox as well. And also l, the opportunity of a further action against the publishing company.

Gumbel and Sollecito will have a theoretical opportunity to defend their claims, but there is no practical chance they will succeed.

Mignini filed a complaint as a victim with the Florence court for defamation, and a denouncement for contempt of court, and the Florence prosecution decided there was ground to proceed.
 
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I didn't read everything yesterday so I hope we didn't let Mach get away with his spiel about how it was lawful for Mignini to deny access to advice between the formal arrests and the appearance before Matteini because that's not the relevant period for the calumny charge. It is besides astonishing that defendants could be produced for a critical bail hearing having been deprived of the advice they need to make appropriate submissions and that is itself a distinct outrage but it's not the point.
 
Bill my post is not a "narrative", I just point out facts, which are incontrovertible yet apparently some on this forum still don't understand. A public prosecutor - any prosecutor - cannot start legal action for defamation as public prosecutor on his own initiative. Defamation is a charge that is started by a victim's querela, for its intrinsic nature. Only after that the prosecution can proceed. The same is for a charge of beating.

This is just the law.

It is always the offended party who takes the initiative of legal action for defamation. Mignini can take the initiative demanding a legal action for defamation as offended party, like anyone else, but not as a prosecutor. And not in Perugia.

Once again, you have completely missed my point. No matter.

ETA - I'm still waiting for why Follain and the Telegraph were not included in the legal action. You will not touch that one with a ten-foot pole, because it is the most bald-faced predatory prosecution in this whole affair.
 
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But because the police officers didn't submit any querela against him! How is it that you pretend to fail to understand anything?

Why did the police officers fail to do this? You fail to understand the import of this.

Follain was one of the chief propagandists for the police. His book, "A Death in Italy," relies on knowing the private thoughts of Mignini, Napoleoni, all those people who he interviewed. He basically recounts their narrative in his book. He is also given access to secret recordings of Amanda's conversations with family and lawyers while she was in prison. Who gets access like that? The only access Follain has to the defence is what is in court,and through access to secret recordings!

Yet when it comes to Follain writing in the Telegraph, quoting Edda and Curt, it is Edda and Curt who are charged.

You keep avoiding the issue. Why was the publisher and author of the piece not so charged? Otherwise it is predatory against Curt and Edda.

I am glad you keep bringing this up.

Your narrative is clear - it's just that you do not have the courage to lay it out systematically. It comes in pieces, as witnessed to your bogus claim that you only post about relevant law here.

You, also, seem to know Mignini's very thoughts.

Machiavelli said:
The public prosecutor is now a Florence magistrate.
At the beginning, the investigation was launched only on a defamation lawsuit from police officers.
Then, a judge later decided that Mignini was also an offended party, albeit Mignini didn't think so.

How do you know what Mignini thinks?

You continually push the narrative that Mignini is the victim here.... he, according to you, is not the actor, he is acted upon. That is your narrative.
 
Why did the police officers fail to do this? You fail to understand the import of this.

Follain was one of the chief propagandists for the police. His book, "A Death in Italy," relies on knowing the private thoughts of Mignini, Napoleoni, all those people who he interviewed. He basically recounts their narrative in his book. He is also given access to secret recordings of Amanda's conversations with family and lawyers while she was in prison. Who gets access like that? The only access Follain has to the defence is what is in court,and through access to secret recordings!

Yet when it comes to Follain writing in the Telegraph, quoting Edda and Curt, it is Edda and Curt who are charged.

You keep avoiding the issue. Why was the publisher and author of the piece not so charged? Otherwise it is predatory against Curt and Edda.

I am glad you keep bringing this up.

Your narrative is clear - it's just that you do not have the courage to lay it out systematically. It comes in pieces, as witnessed to your bogus claim that you only post about relevant law here.

You, also, seem to know Mignini's very thoughts.



How do you know what Mignini thinks?

You continually push the narrative that Mignini is the victim here.... he, according to you, is not the actor, he is acted upon. That is your narrative.

Your comment is just crazy. I have answered multiple times, and not even one should be necessary. The police officers are private citizens who can submit their complaints for defamation against whoever they like in order to pursue their interest, because this is the nature of defamation lawsuits. Nobody owes anyone an explanation for not submitting lawsuits.
 
SIMONS v. BELGIUM 71407/10 Decision 28/08/2012

This case is a decision, not a judgment. It was inadmissible.

This is a case about a woman, Ms. Simons (and the State of Belgium). Police were summoned to a place to find a man had been stabbed. Ms. Simons, who was there, stated that she had stabbed the man, who was her partner.

The case was brought under Article 5.1. That is, Ms. Simons was taken into custody, but that is not the same as being convicted of a crime (Article 6 would apply). The Salduz case and others related to it are about being convicted in a trial on the basis, in whole or substantial part, of statements made without benefit of counsel (violation of Article 6.3c with 6.1). So this case is apparently not advanced to the point of being comparable to Salduz; the ECHR does not know what will be presented at the trial, if it is held.

excerpts (note para. 30, re Brusco):

2. On 13 March 2010 the Liège police were informed that a man had been stabbed with a knife. At the scene, the applicant told the police officers that the victim was her partner and that she herself had inflicted the wounds. The officers found a trail of blood leading to her home, where they discovered other traces of blood and a blood-stained kitchen knife.

4. The applicant was arrested that same day at 4 p.m. She was interviewed by investigators between 11.59 p.m. and 2.32 a.m. as a “suspect”. She was not assisted by a lawyer and – she alleged – was not informed beforehand of her right to remain silent, but her rights as provided in the “Franchimont Act” of 12 March 1998 were read to her prior to the interview. She was thus informed that her statements could be used in evidence, that she was entitled to ask for a verbatim record to be made of any questions put to her, together with her answers, and to request any supplementary investigative act or interview, that she could use any documents in her possession, provided the questioning was not delayed, and that, during or after her interview, she could have documents included in the case file or deposited in the registry. The applicant confessed to being the perpetrator of the stabbing and, in response to the investigators’ questions, gave a detailed account of the incident, explaining in particular that it had followed an argument, of which she described the context and circumstances.

5. The next day, from 11.08 a.m. to 11.34 a.m., the applicant was questioned by an investigating judge. She was not assisted by a lawyer and – she alleged – was not informed of her right to remain silent. She confirmed the statements she had made to the police. The investigating judge then informed her that she was being charged with attempted murder, with intent, and that she had the “right to choose a lawyer”.
.....
30. ... In the Brusco judgment (cited above, §§ 45 and 54), the Court added that the right of a person in police custody to be assisted by a lawyer from the beginning of that measure, and during the interview itself, is all the more important where he or she has not been notified by the authorities of the right to remain silent.
31. This case-law clearly expresses the following principle: first, a person “charged with a criminal offence”, within the meaning of Article 6 of the Convention, is entitled to receive legal assistance from the time he or she is taken into police custody or otherwise remanded in custody and, as the case may be, during questioning by police or by an investigating judge; secondly, whilst a restriction of this right may in certain circumstances be justified and be compatible with the requirements of that Article (see, by way of example, Hovanesian v. Bulgaria, no. 31814/03, 21 December 2010), any such restriction that is imposed by a systemic rule of domestic law is inconsistent with the right to a fair trial.

32. The Court would observe, however, that this is one of the principles of the right to a fair trial, specifically deriving from Article 6, paragraph 3, of the Convention, which secures among other things the right for a person “charged with a criminal offence” to have legal assistance of his own choosing. It is not one of the “general principles” implied by the Convention, which are, by definition, transversal in nature.

The Court further points out that the general principles implied by the Convention to which the Article 5 § 1 case-law refers are the principle of the rule of law (see Ilaşcu and Others v. Moldova and Russia [GC], no. 48787/99, § 461, ECHR 2004‑VII) and, connected to the latter, that of legal certainty (see, among other authorities, Baranowski v. Poland, no. 28358/95, § 52, ECHR 2000 III), the principle of proportionality (see, for example, Enhorn v. Sweden, no. 56529/00, § 36, ECHR 2005-I) and the principle of protection against arbitrariness (which is, moreover, the very aim of Article 5 – see, inter alia, Erkalo, cited above, § 52).

33. Thus, whilst the statutory inability for a person “charged with a criminal offence”, who is deprived of his liberty, to receive legal assistance from the beginning of his detention affects the fairness of the criminal proceedings against him, it cannot be inferred from that sole fact that his detention breaches Article 5 § 1 of the Convention for failure to satisfy the requirement of lawfulness inherent in that provision.

34. In the light of the foregoing, having examined the application under Article 5 § 1 of the Convention, the Court finds that it is manifestly ill-founded and must be rejected pursuant to Article 35 §§ 3 (a) and 4 of the Convention
 
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Your comment is just crazy. I have answered multiple times, and not even one should be necessary. The police officers are private citizens who can submit their complaints for defamation against whoever they like in order to pursue their interest, because this is the nature of defamation lawsuits. Nobody owes anyone an explanation for not submitting lawsuits.

The police officers and the prosecutor are all considered agents of the State of Italy by the ECHR. And by all other reasonable persons.
 
(...)

How do you know what Mignini thinks?

You continually push the narrative that Mignini is the victim here.... he, according to you, is not the actor, he is acted upon. That is your narrative.

But now you are speaking about a calunnia charge, and Follain has nothing to do with it. As for the calunnia againt police trial, Mignini himself stated that he didn't think he was an offended party, and he did not submit any lawsuit, and was not added to the list of civil parties until the judge - against Mignini's request - moved the trial to Florence and decided that he was an offended party. The legs action was started by police officers alone, this is in the papers.
 
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The police officers and the prosecutor are all considered agents of the State of Italy by the ECHR. And by all other reasonable persons.

But the ECHR has nothing to do with defamation lawsuits against Curt Knox and Edda Mellas.
 
Numbers said:
Your comment is just crazy. I have answered multiple times, and not even one should be necessary. The police officers are private citizens who can submit their complaints for defamation against whoever they like in order to pursue their interest, because this is the nature of defamation lawsuits. Nobody owes anyone an explanation for not submitting lawsuits.

The police officers and the prosecutor are all considered agents of the State of Italy by the ECHR. And by all other reasonable persons.

It seems like when it is convenient for the pro guilt side, they consider the police and prosecutor private individual and when convenient they are considered part of the state.

You have this ducking and dodging target which one is unable to figure out. That actually seems to be a large part of this case where you cannot figure out what the Italian judiciary is actually arguing.
 
There is no mileage in this nonsense. Mr Sollecito was pressured, coerced and tricked in his interrogation as was Ms Knox. If there were any substance to the claim that he really disavowed Ms Knox, he would have pursued the matter at trial to his benefit. If you on the other hand really believed Mr Sollecito stayed in and Ms Knox went out then you would have to support Mr Sollecito's innocence. If you don't believe that but rather that both Ms Knox and Mr Sollecito are guilty, then you have no point to make.

No everyone doesn’t – Less than 1 day ago Kauffer was claiming that It never happened :mad: & that if it had RS would have used it to his advantage in the trial.
Recently Dan O IIRC was still claiming that all RS said was that ‘he couldn’t be sure that she hadn’t gone out after he fell asleep’ – the standard groupie mantra.
Your denial of the fact that RS blamed AK for his earlier lies is on a par with these arguments – if perhaps not so spectacularly ‘special’ it is certainly spectacularly dishonest or ill-informed.
And this, 4 (or 7) years down the line.

Still not understanding the language are you Catnov/platnip

Try a little harder - it's not that difficult to understand. For Mr Sollecito really to have disavowed Ms Knox, he would have needed to have been making clear, non compelled statements without the application of police pressure and attempts to confuse him at a time when he was not tired and questioned unfairly.

Furthermore, for the disavowal to have any substance at all, Mr Sollecito would have been required not to have claimed shortly afterwards and from then on that he spent the entire night of the murder with Ms Knox at his flat - in other words, the police interrogation caused him to say what he otherwise would not.

Additionally, it might have helped your cause if at least one of the trial judges had not entered into the court record that Mr Sollecito and Ms Knox's account of their whereabouts on the night of the murder was the same - that they were together and not actually murdering anyone.

Do you get it now?

And do you get why it would have helped Mr Sollecito's position actually and really to disavow Ms Knox? Do you understand why he didn't do this?
 
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SIMONS v. BELGIUM 71407/10 Decision 28/08/2012

This case is a decision, not a judgment. It was inadmissible.

This is a case about a woman, Ms. Simons (and the State of Belgium). Police were summoned to a place to find a man had been stabbed. Ms. Simons, who was there, stated that she had stabbed the man, who was her partner.

The case was brought under Article 5.1. That is, Ms. Simons was taken into custody, but that is not the same as being convicted of a crime (Article 6 would apply). The Salduz case and others related to it are about being convicted in a trial on the basis, in whole or substantial part, of statements made without benefit of counsel (violation of Article 6.3c with 6.1). So this case is apparently not advanced to the point of being comparable to Salduz; the ECHR does not know what will be presented at the trial, if it is held.

excerpts (note para. 30, re Brusco):

2. On 13 March 2010 the Liège police were informed that a man had been stabbed with a knife. At the scene, the applicant told the police officers that the victim was her partner and that she herself had inflicted the wounds. The officers found a trail of blood leading to her home, where they discovered other traces of blood and a blood-stained kitchen knife.

4. The applicant was arrested that same day at 4 p.m. She was interviewed by investigators between 11.59 p.m. and 2.32 a.m. as a “suspect”. She was not assisted by a lawyer and – she alleged – was not informed beforehand of her right to remain silent, but her rights as provided in the “Franchimont Act” of 12 March 1998 were read to her prior to the interview. She was thus informed that her statements could be used in evidence, that she was entitled to ask for a verbatim record to be made of any questions put to her, together with her answers, and to request any supplementary investigative act or interview, that she could use any documents in her possession, provided the questioning was not delayed, and that, during or after her interview, she could have documents included in the case file or deposited in the registry. The applicant confessed to being the perpetrator of the stabbing and, in response to the investigators’ questions, gave a detailed account of the incident, explaining in particular that it had followed an argument, of which she described the context and circumstances.

5. The next day, from 11.08 a.m. to 11.34 a.m., the applicant was questioned by an investigating judge. She was not assisted by a lawyer and – she alleged – was not informed of her right to remain silent. She confirmed the statements she had made to the police. The investigating judge then informed her that she was being charged with attempted murder, with intent, and that she had the “right to choose a lawyer”.
.....
30. ... In the Brusco judgment (cited above, §§ 45 and 54), the Court added that the right of a person in police custody to be assisted by a lawyer from the beginning of that measure, and during the interview itself, is all the more important where he or she has not been notified by the authorities of the right to remain silent.
31. This case-law clearly expresses the following principle: first, a person “charged with a criminal offence”, within the meaning of Article 6 of the Convention, is entitled to receive legal assistance from the time he or she is taken into police custody or otherwise remanded in custody and, as the case may be, during questioning by police or by an investigating judge; secondly, whilst a restriction of this right may in certain circumstances be justified and be compatible with the requirements of that Article (see, by way of example, Hovanesian v. Bulgaria, no. 31814/03, 21 December 2010), any such restriction that is imposed by a systemic rule of domestic law is inconsistent with the right to a fair trial.

32. The Court would observe, however, that this is one of the principles of the right to a fair trial, specifically deriving from Article 6, paragraph 3, of the Convention, which secures among other things the right for a person “charged with a criminal offence” to have legal assistance of his own choosing. It is not one of the “general principles” implied by the Convention, which are, by definition, transversal in nature.

The Court further points out that the general principles implied by the Convention to which the Article 5 § 1 case-law refers are the principle of the rule of law (see Ilaşcu and Others v. Moldova and Russia [GC], no. 48787/99, § 461, ECHR 2004‑VII) and, connected to the latter, that of legal certainty (see, among other authorities, Baranowski v. Poland, no. 28358/95, § 52, ECHR 2000 III), the principle of proportionality (see, for example, Enhorn v. Sweden, no. 56529/00, § 36, ECHR 2005-I) and the principle of protection against arbitrariness (which is, moreover, the very aim of Article 5 – see, inter alia, Erkalo, cited above, § 52).

33. Thus, whilst the statutory inability for a person “charged with a criminal offence”, who is deprived of his liberty, to receive legal assistance from the beginning of his detention affects the fairness of the criminal proceedings against him, it cannot be inferred from that sole fact that his detention breaches Article 5 § 1 of the Convention for failure to satisfy the requirement of lawfulness inherent in that provision.

34. In the light of the foregoing, having examined the application under Article 5 § 1 of the Convention, the Court finds that it is manifestly ill-founded and must be rejected pursuant to Article 35 §§ 3 (a) and 4 of the Convention

If the ECHR did not dismiss this case without looking at it, I would argue that they are very likely to look at ms Knox's case and not just dismiss. If they look at it, I suspect that (based on your previous posts), they will find in her favor.
 
But the ECHR has nothing to do with defamation lawsuits against Curt Knox and Edda Mellas.

In your opinion.

The lawsuits are directed against the family members of a person who made allegations of abuse and who mentioned such abuse, but not against the newspaper or reporter who published the allegations. In terms of damage to reputation, it is the publication in the media that is the more damaging.

The selective legal action against close relatives of the person claiming the abuse, excluding other obvious candidate defamers (newspaper and reporter), by the very agents of the State who were the ones alleged to have conducted the abuse, is clearly a retaliation. It seems likely to be noticed as such by ECHR.
 
No I’m not assuming anything. A poster here Charlie Wilkes claims Knox’s family gave him the case file.

What is your position? That Knox’s family gave certain of Amanda’s fans images of the naked corpse of the woman she murdered for further distribution but withheld or forbid publication of RS’s Nov 5th statement.

Is that it ? It might make some sense given the nature of the campaign and support base.

I'm sorry, but your comments make so little sense to me, compared to my understanding of the actual facts, that I see little sense in further discussion with you on this. A "yes it happened"/"no it didn't" discussion combined with your penchant for attributing individual comments of each poster on the pro-innocence side, as if we all are one person, makes discussion pointless.

I think you trying to make a connection between some people having seen the crime scene photos and the non-existance of any public copy of RS's statement to police is nonsensical, and most people will see it as such.

Have a nice day.
 
If the ECHR did not dismiss this case without looking at it, I would argue that they are very likely to look at ms Knox's case and not just dismiss. If they look at it, I suspect that (based on your previous posts), they will find in her favor.

The ECHR dismissed the case because there had not been a conviction.

From the text of the decision, it is not clear at what stage the legal proceedings in the case were when it was lodged with the ECHR. The trial may not have been completed.

In the case of Ms. Knox, her conviction for simple calunnia has been finalized by the CSC, so the situation is different that in Simons v. Belgium, which related to the pre-trial remand custody.
 
It seems like when it is convenient for the pro guilt side, they consider the police and prosecutor private individual and when convenient they are considered part of the state.

You have this ducking and dodging target which one is unable to figure out. That actually seems to be a large part of this case where you cannot figure out what the Italian judiciary is actually arguing.

They are private citizens when they file a complaint for defamation, since there is no such thing like a defamation suit filed by the state. Defamation is prosecuted only under the control of a private subject and lawsuit serves exclusively the interest of one individual.
Calunnia instead is prosecuted by the state, it can have offended parties or damaged civil parties in the trial, but may also not have them.
 
In your opinion.

The lawsuits are directed against the family members of a person who made allegations of abuse and who mentioned such abuse, but not against the newspaper or reporter who published the allegations. In terms of damage to reputation, it is the publication in the media that is the more damaging.

The selective legal action against close relatives of the person claiming the abuse, excluding other obvious candidate defamers (newspaper and reporter), by the very agents of the State who were the ones alleged to have conducted the abuse, is clearly a retaliation. It seems likely to be noticed as such by ECHR.

But the selective legal action belongs to the nature of defamation lawsuits. It is up to a private subject to decide about whether it is in their interest to sue this or that. Defamation is only about the private interest on an individual, it protects exclusively that and pursues that purpose.
 
In your opinion.

The lawsuits are directed against the family members of a person who made allegations of abuse and who mentioned such abuse, but not against the newspaper or reporter who published the allegations. In terms of damage to reputation, it is the publication in the media that is the more damaging.

The selective legal action against close relatives of the person claiming the abuse, excluding other obvious candidate defamers (newspaper and reporter), by the very agents of the State who were the ones alleged to have conducted the abuse, is clearly a retaliation. It seems likely to be noticed as such by ECHR.

It is this type of reasoning that makes me think that the ECHR will need to wait until the whole case is settled, and rule on the overall case -- the calunnia conviction, any conviction in the murder, and the side cases all being part of the consideration. Is there precedent for them doing something like that? I can understand why Amanda would have filed her Calunnia conviction with the ECHR first, since the deadline demanded that. But it seems the whole thing is so intertwined, do you think they would be likely to somehow hear all related claims together? Or would it be more likely they would rule on the Calunnia issue first, since it was submitted first and it affects the other charges (even those still being decided)?
 
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