Continuation Part 12: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

Status
Not open for further replies.
The subtle distinction between word salad and non sequiturs comes into play once again:)

If you can’t defend the ‘He would have brought it up at trial had it happened’ argument or no longer claim that, then just say so.
It’s a thing of beauty – it would be a shame if it were to be dropped so quickly.

& This Q still stands –

You really are struggling to make a point.

What is it? Either you believe Mr Sollecito went out or you don't. Which is it? If you believe he stayed in then you must agree he is innocent of murder. If you believe he did not stay in but in fact went out and was out with Ms Knox then the matter of what Mr Sollecito said in the interrogation is irrelevant.

Every judge in this case, and it's part of the court record, states unequivocally that Mr Sollecito supports Ms Knox's alibi and vice versa.

It's clear that they broke Mr Sollecito to get at Ms Knox.

At trial Mr Sollecito could indeed have distanced himself from Ms Knox - transformed himself into a witness for the prosecution and in doing so he would not have been indicted for murder. There is evidence that this option was available to him.

Mr Sollecito at all times has been dragged along in the wake of Ms Knox's prosecution.

Some of the pro guilt forums have obsessed about the idea of Mr Sollecito withdrawing his alibi for Ms Knox - it's utter nonsense, has no meaning and was never an issue at trial for anyone.

I think one of your problems- and you have many - is that you do not understand the distinction between the different phases of the case.
 
Last edited:
You really are struggling to make a point.
What is it? Either you believe Mr Sollecito went out or you don't. Which is it? If you believe he stayed in then you must agree he is innocent of murder. If you believe he did not stay in but in fact went out and was out with Ms Knox then the matter of what Mr Sollecito said in the interrogation is irrelevant.

Every judge in this case, and it's part of the court record, states unequivocally that Mr Sollecito supports Ms Knox's alibi and vice versa.

It's clear that they broke Mr Sollecito to get at Ms Knox.

At trial Mr Sollecito could indeed have distanced himself from Ms Knox - transformed himself into a witness for the prosecution and in doing so he would not have been indicted for murder. There is evidence that this option was available to him.

Mr Sollecito at all times has been dragged along in the wake of Ms Knox's prosecution.

Some of the pro guilt forums have obsessed about the idea of Mr Sollecito withdrawing his alibi for Ms Knox - it's utter nonsense, has no meaning and was never an issue at trial for anyone.

I think one of your problems- and you have many - is that you do not understand the distinction between the different phases of the case.


I’m not you know.:)

Samson brought the issue up and I responded.

You interjected with a tremendous logical/legal argument and Bill .....Bill was posting on this issue also.
Now it’s a matter of public record that RS ‘disavowed’ AK on Nov 5th. Most of the groupies finally accept this.
You seemed to deny it on the grounds that he RS would have used it at trial had it happened.
That is the kind of argument this thread was once famed for!
We are thrashing this idea out and exploring why RS disavowed AK on Nov 5th.

Well I was – Samson seems to have gone off the idea.

ps This is priceless.;)
 
Last edited:
'Flip Wilson' and the ECHR

Also do you accept that denying counsel for 48 hours is contrary to the ECHR rulings that right to counsel should be early and not routinely or arbitrarily restricted? I think this was a strategic error by Mignini, although he believed this was legal under Italian law, it appears that since European Human Rights supersedes national law, this was not legal. I think that this is clearly a breach of right to counsel. The impact on the callunia conviction I am less certain of, we will have to await the court decision.

IIUC, Mignini believed he was once again battling his fantastical satanic sect, yet again out murdering young women for bloody sacrifice for their black masses.

In Mignini's view, the sect is the equivalent of the mafia, i.e. a secret society. and therefore the terrorism/anti-mafia laws would apply to their new obviously dangerous suspects.

I continue to believe Italy's actual defense in Amanda's calunnia ECHR case, is Migmnini's Narducci trail theory. Whether Italy will be too embarrassed to choose to actually assert Mignini's justification for restricting Knox's rights is hard to guess - but that's what appears to have happened.

Italy, courtesy of Dottore Mignini, is using the 'Flip Wilson' defense before the ECHR: "The devil made me do it!".
 
Last edited:
Holy cow

Don't have time to go into detail, but check out the echr's decision in chopenko v Ukraine, decided today. Doesn't bode well for Italy.
 
When letting a house to tenants, fire regs prevent the operation of a key to unlock exit doors. They don't want people burning to death trying to escape and finding the key has gone missing. Modern doors lock automatically so you can't access without a key from the outside but can open the door without a key from the inside - at least in the UK, the last time I looked. But you are right - all sorts of arrangements are common.

Yes I guess you are right. The rules for rented property are stricter than for private accommodation. I guess it is not unusual for students to be in a rather grey area with regards to accommodation shared flats rather than formally rented. In Italy I am sure that no one ever ignores the rules unlike England where people are relaxed about the letter of the law (this is sarcasm btw).

Reaso why I ask of course is wondering if Guede would have any reason to expect a door which he could not just make a fast getaway from.
 
How did I miss this?

You really are struggling to make a point.

What is it? Either you believe Mr Sollecito went out or you don't. Which is it? If you believe he stayed in then you must agree he is innocent of murder. If you believe he did not stay in but in fact went out and was out with Ms Knox then the matter of what Mr Sollecito said in the interrogation is irrelevant.
Every judge in this case, and it's part of the court record, states unequivocally that Mr Sollecito supports Ms Knox's alibi and vice versa.

It's clear that they broke Mr Sollecito to get at Ms Knox.


This is even better – It’s irrelevant.:D:D
Have you been reading London John’s old posts?

It’s extremely relevant, surely, to the matter of the calunnia issue. Whatever pressures were applied to AK [waterboarding whatever] might have
also have broken RS who was, lest we forget, one tough nut to crack.

This might crack the conspiracy wide open and you claim it’s irrelevant.
 
This is even better – It’s irrelevant.:D:D
Have you been reading London John’s old posts?

It’s extremely relevant, surely, to the matter of the calunnia issue. Whatever pressures were applied to AK [waterboarding whatever] might have
also have broken RS who was, lest we forget, one tough nut to crack.

This might crack the conspiracy wide open and you claim it’s irrelevant.

One of these days, Platonov, I am going to read one of your posts and get half an idea what the dickens you are talking about. Not today though ...
 
Groundhog day

One of these days, Platonov, I am going to read one of your posts and get half an idea what the dickens you are talking about. Not today though ...


You are not alone in your (claims of) incomprehension. They were once a mainstay of these threads when tricky issues like this were addressed.

As were claims of ITS IRRELEVANT :)


So do you also think what RS said on the 5th is irrelevant or is the Q incomprehensible to you?
 
Last edited:
Houston, we have a problem

Check this out, from today's decision in Chopenko:

49. The Court notes that, although not absolute, the right of everyone charged with a criminal offence to be effectively defended by a lawyer, assigned officially if need be, is one of the fundamental features of a fair trial (see Krombach v. France, no. 29731/96, § 89, ECHR 2001‑II). As a rule, access to a lawyer should be provided from the first questioning of a suspect by the police, unless it can be demonstrated in the light of the particular circumstances of each case that there were compelling reasons to restrict this right (see Salduz v. Turkey [GC], cited above, § 55). The right to defence will in principle be irretrievably prejudiced when incriminating statements made during police questioning without access to a lawyer are used for a conviction (ibid.).

50. Turning to the facts of the present case, the Court notes that the applicant’s first formal questioning as a suspect in the murder of O.K. took place in the evening of 28 June 2005, in the presence of the lawyer M. However, it is clear from the applicant’s submissions, and was not rebutted by the Government, that the day before that questioning he had already been placed in unrecorded police custody and questioned concerning his involvement in the murder in issue. As can be seen from the case file, on 27 June 2005 he signed a statement at the police station attesting to his involvement in the crime against O.K. In addition, on 28 June 2005 the applicant was questioned by the investigator at the prosecutor’s office, who recorded his detailed self-incriminating submissions as “explanations”. The timing of this questioning is unclear. However, absent any clarifications from the Government, the Court accepts the applicant’s version, according to which the questioning preceded his formal arrest on that date.

51. It follows that by virtue of the above-mentioned principles as enshrined in the Court’s case-law, the applicant was entitled to have access to a lawyer during his questioning on 27 and 28 June 2005. However, at that time he was questioned without a lawyer and there is no record indicating that before the questioning sessions in issue he was notified of his right to obtain legal assistance. On the facts of the case, the Court does not find any compelling reason justifying such a restriction of the applicant’s right of access to a lawyer. It follows that this right was not respected during the period in issue.

52. In so far as the applicant alleges that his confession statements should have been excluded from the body of evidence, the Court notes that the applicant repeatedly gave confession statements in presence of two lawyers and did not retract them until the third lawyer was admitted in the proceedings. There is also no proof that the initial confessions given by the applicant without a lawyer were extracted by ill-treatment or under the threat thereof. On the other hand, the Court notes that at the time when the applicant volunteered his original confessions, he might not have been fully aware of their significance, as the initial charges against him concerned non-aggravated murder only. Once they were reclassified as aggravated murder, rape and robbery he chose, possibly on the advice of his lawyer, to remain silent and subsequently retracted his confessions. What is even more important is that the original confessions which, as noted above, were obtained in breach of the applicant’s right to legal assistance, formed part of the case file. Thus, they affected the investigation strategy and set the framework within which the applicant’s further defence had to be mounted. It follows that regardless of whether the applicant chose to retract or maintain these confessions, the initial breach of his right to defence could not be remedied by the mere fact that he was subsequently provided with legal assistance. It necessitated further remedial action on behalf of the authorities involved.
53. Nevertheless, the domestic courts relied on the applicant’s confessions as the main basis for his conviction and failed to act upon his complaints about a breach of his right to defend himself. It is true that the confession statements were not the sole basis for the applicant’s conviction. However, absent any court ruling as to the role of the initial submissions obtained from the applicant in breach of his right to legal assistance and included in the case file, this breach was not remedied in the judicial proceedings.

54. The above considerations are sufficient for the Court to conclude that there has been a violation of Article 6 §§ 1 and 3 (c) of the Convention on account of the restriction of the applicant’s right of access to a lawyer during his initial questionings and the use of his self-incriminating statements as a basis for his conviction.

I think some certain prosecutors and judges in Italy had better start clenching. What Italy did to Knox is even worse than the way Ukraine treated this murderer.

This is going to be a come to Jesus moment for the judicial authorities in Italy. I expect the ISC to attempt to address this problem in its upcoming decision, and the question is whether it will do so forthrightly, and reverse for a new trial, or deceitfully by attempting to "fix" things retroactively. I expect the latter due to the poor track record of Italian judges in this case. No matter, though--no one will be fooled.
 
Last edited:
You are not alone in your (claims of) incomprehension. They were once a mainstay of these threads when tricky issues like this were addressed.

As were claims of ITS IRRELEVANT :)


So do you also think what RS said on the 5th is irrelevant or is the Q incomprehensible to you?

Irrelevant to what, Platonov? Her prospects in the ECHR on calumny or something else?

And I ask in good faith. I am not claiming incomprehension, I am uncomprehending. Maybe you have a great point, in which case I would like to show you what's wrong with it :D
 
This is even better – It’s irrelevant.:D:D
Have you been reading London John’s old posts?

It’s extremely relevant, surely, to the matter of the calunnia issue. Whatever pressures were applied to AK [waterboarding whatever] might have
also have broken RS who was, lest we forget, one tough nut to crack.

This might crack the conspiracy wide open and you claim it’s irrelevant.

Make an argument! Your posts are pointless to date.

What is the argument you want to make with regard to the interrogation of Mr Sollecito? Do you want to argue that he denies Ms Knox an alibi and asserts that she went out without him, continues to believe that and that you believe he stayed in? If so say so.

Or do you believe they went out together?

The problems with the callunia case for the Italians are certainly enhanced by the fact that the police in Ms Knox's interrogation claimed that Mr Sollecito took away her alibi. She continued to be denied counsel in violation of Article 6 ECHR.

The police got Mr Sollecito to say what they wanted him to say for the purposes of getting to Ms Knox. It's irrelevant to the truth of what happened the night of the murder but relevant to the issue of abusive police behaviour and the denial of procedural rights to suspects.
 
Last edited:
LOL. Another popper siting at PMF. First he was bitching about a restaurant somebody suggested, and then he dropped this question:

Just for a laugh, I read at ISF they claim no lawyer or judge in Italy knows ECHR even exists. I wonder who they think writes the thousands of applications to ECHR listed daily in their posts as coming from Italy [99% with no consequence but this is another story]. Probably they believe all these applications are written by thousands of lawyers from Gambia.

Well, Popper, now that you mention it, those thousands and thousands of applications are written by people who allege that Italy violated their human rights. The sheer volume of these Italian cases is so great that the court can't even handle them all. So, your point is well-taken: there are many victims of Italian human rights violations who appear to be aware that their rights have been violated. However, this does not affect our main point, which is that Italian judges, in particular the ISC, are totally ignorant of Article 6.
 
Last edited:
You are not alone in your (claims of) incomprehension. They were once a mainstay of these threads when tricky issues like this were addressed.

As were claims of ITS IRRELEVANT :)


So do you also think what RS said on the 5th is irrelevant or is the Q incomprehensible to you?

Do you agree with the entire prosecution case for guilt or there's certain things you don't find credible? Eg you find toto credible but Nara unreliable or the knife wasn't the murder weapon but the bra clasp is good evidence.

What in particular would you side with the defense on?
 
Jackie was given Zaichenko by us so he could understand all this! Nor has he looked at Brusco, Shibelnik and Pischalnikov...the whole shift of post Salduz case law he hasn't understood.

Well, as they say around here: you can lead a horse's ass to water but you can't make him think.
 
Well, as they say around here: you can lead a horse's ass to water but you can't make him think.

I always liked Dorothy Parker:
You can lead a whore to culture (horticulture) but you can't make her think.
 
Last edited:
Bill :)

What is this about?
Nobody on the planet bar yourself claims that RS brought up the Nov 5th “out from 9 till 1” Issue at his press conf. Its beyond nonsensical.

Although to be fair it’s no worse that Kauffer’s latest argument.

In all seriousness, bud, your posts are nonsensical. I don't know how many people need to tell you this before it sinks in.

Vibio, for instance, knows how to handle the innocentisti-crowd here. The posts Vibio makes are at least lucid.

MichaelB has asked you a serious question about what parts of the defence case would make sense to you. As an example, Vibio charted a course for herself independent of the prevailing guilter-non-narrative, expresssing the opinion that Knox was not in the murder room at the time of the murder.

You get tripped up in your posts in the attempt to be snarky or cute, slipping in ad hominems, which are fine, really they are - except that they obscure what you're trying to say.

I suspect that you actually have nothing to add, really, other than the ad hominems (Britney, etc.) but it is hard to tell until you actually (cf. Kauffer) make an argument.

This leads to a larger issue. All us innocentisti here spend far, far too much time on folk like Jackie and platonov... who really don't offer a serious guilter argument/narrative.

Machiavelli is an exception, however, he argues as-if Mignini's lawyer, spinning everything as-if making a case in a courtroom against a fierce opposition.

SO why even respond to Jackie and/or platonov? Probably because there is no one else even making a case for guilt - save for Nencini in a completely horrid motivations report. But Nencini is not out in the world defending his idiotsyncreties.

So platonov, you could actually do us a favour by taking 5 posts, sparing us the ad hominem, and make a cogent argument.
 
In all seriousness, bud, your posts are nonsensical. I don't know how many people need to tell you this before it sinks in.

Vibio, for instance, knows how to handle the innocentisti-crowd here. The posts Vibio makes are at least lucid.
MichaelB has asked you a serious question about what parts of the defence case would make sense to you. As an example, Vibio charted a course for herself independent of the prevailing guilter-non-narrative, expresssing the opinion that Knox was not in the murder room at the time of the murder.

You get tripped up in your posts in the attempt to be snarky or cute, slipping in ad hominems, which are fine, really they are - except that they obscure what you're trying to say.

I suspect that you actually have nothing to add, really, other than the ad hominems (Britney, etc.) but it is hard to tell until you actually (cf. Kauffer) make an argument.

This leads to a larger issue. All us innocentisti here spend far, far too much time on folk like Jackie and platonov... who really don't offer a serious guilter argument/narrative.

Machiavelli is an exception, however, he argues as-if Mignini's lawyer, spinning everything as-if making a case in a courtroom against a fierce opposition.

SO why even respond to Jackie and/or platonov? Probably because there is no one else even making a case for guilt - save for Nencini in a completely horrid motivations report. But Nencini is not out in the world defending his idiotsyncreties.

So platonov, you could actually do us a favour by taking 5 posts, sparing us the ad hominem, and make a cogent argument.
This concession has not been passed through the proper channels at Central Control before publication. Williams! You are skiing off piste again. How many more times?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom