Continuation Part 12: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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The case of Dvorski v Croatia 25703/11 has been suggested as countering the application of Salduz to Amanda Knox's application to ECHR on her calunnia conviction.

First, it should be noted that Dvorski has been appealed to and will be heard by the Grand Chamber, which potentially could judge differently than has the Chamber. This, by the way is an indication of the importance of such Article 6.3c with Article 6.1 cases to the ECHR. However, even if the Grand Chamber judgment agrees with that of the Chamber on Dvorski, the cases are so different that the Dvorski ruling would not be relevant.

In the Dvorski case, the police prevented Dvorski, who was under arrest and to be interrogated, from meeting with his lawyer of choice, who was summoned to the police station by Dvorski's father. Instead, the police had Dvorski choose a lawyer from a list (which was not provided to the Court); this lawyer had previous association with the police and never accepted payment from Dvorski. Dvorski was interrogated and signed a confession. He was tried and renounced his confession, but was convicted. He did use his lawyer of choice during the trial.

The ECHR Chamber judgment found that there was no violation of Convention Article 6.3c with Article 6.1 in this case. The reasons in brief are:

1. There was substantial additional evidence presented at trial of Dvorski's guilt.

2. The Court did not find credible Dvorski's claim of coercion.

3. The confession was not the sole or decisive element in his conviction.

4. There was no indication of impropriety by the lawyer chosen from the police.

5. The Court saw no other indication of violation of rights regarding this area in the trial.

These above four statement may be contrasted with the circumstance of Amanda Knox's interrogation, false statement, and trial for calunnia.

1. The only evidence of the calunnia is her statement(s).

2. She claims the statement(s) were the product of coercion.

3. The statement(s) made by Amanda Knox were the sole evidence and decisive for the conviction of calunnia.

4. She did not have the counsel of a lawyer during her interrogation on Nov. 5/6, and the police should have provided her with a lawyer because:

4.1 She was under police interrogation as soon as she was asked to enter the interrogation room to answer questions.

4.2 She had made an incriminating statement by 1:45 am, stating that she had observed a murder.

5. There are other violations apparent in her trial; for example, the Hellmann court did not consider all her defenses, such as expert opinion testimony relating to suggestibility during interrogation, in the motivation report, and there are other indications of arbitrariness in the Hellmann court reasoning.



CASE OF DVORSKI v. CROATIA 25703/11 28/11/2013 {excerpts; bolding added}

106. Furthermore, the Court notes that the applicant’s confession was not the central platform of the prosecution’s case (see, by contrast, Magee v. the United Kingdom, no. 28135/95, § 45, ECHR 2000‑VI), and that the trial court relied on his statement interpreting it in the light of a complex body of evidence assessed by the court (compare Bykov, cited above, § 103). Specifically, when convicting the applicant, the trial court relied on the statements of a number of witnesses cross-examined during the trial, numerous expert reports and the records of the crime-scene investigation and searches and seizures, as well as relevant photographs and other physical evidence (see paragraphs 29-43 and 45-46 above). In addition, the trial court had at its disposal the confessions made by the applicant’s co-accused at the trial and neither the applicant nor his co-accused ever argued that any of their rights had been infringed when they had made those statements.

107. Therefore, although the applicant was not represented by a lawyer selected on the basis of a fully informed choice during the police questioning, the Court does not consider that this rendered the proceedings as a whole unfair
(compare O’Kane v. the United Kingdom (dec.), no. 30550/96, 6 July 1999), since all the applicant’s rights were adequately secured during the trial and his confession was not the sole, let alone the decisive, evidence in the case and as such did not call into question his conviction and sentence (compare Gäfgen v. Germany [GC], no. 22978/05, § 187, ECHR 2010; and, by contrast, Martin v. Estonia, no. 35985/09, § 95-96, 30 May 2013).

108. Against the above background, and in view of the principle that the requirements of Article 6 § 3 are to be seen as particular aspects of the right to a fair trial guaranteed by Article 6 § 1 of the Convention (see, for example, Zagorodniy, cited above, § 51) and the requirement for the Court to evaluate the fairness of the criminal proceedings as a whole (see Al-Khawaja and Tahery v. the United Kingdom [GC], nos. 26766/05 and 22228/06, § 118, ECHR 2011), the Court considers that it has not been shown that the applicant’s defence rights have been irretrievably prejudiced or that his right to a fair trial under Article 6 has been adversely affected (see, mutatis mutandis, Mamaç and Others v. Turkey, nos. 29486/95, 29487/95 and 29853/96, § 48, 20 April 2004, and Sarıkaya v. Turkey, no. 36115/97, § 67, 22 April 2004; and, by contrast, Martin, cited above, § 97).

109. Accordingly, in the light of these considerations, given the particular circumstances of the present case, the Court concludes that there has been no violation of Article 6 § 1 read in conjunction with § 3 (c) of the Convention .

Gosh! I was starting to get the impression from previous posts that any or all Article 6.3c with Article 6.1 ECHR cases were slam-dunk for the applicant.

Good on ya for posting the Dvorski v Croatia case.
 
There are ways which on can argue that minimize the conspiracy. Becomes more various individuals covering their gluteus maximus combined with some incompetence.

Yes, I agree. Still, the pro-innocence case is not easy to swallow if you don't have close knowledge of the case. Of all the cases I have looked at in any detail (maybe a dozen or so) this is by far the most complicated.
 
Gosh! I was starting to get the impression from previous posts that any or all Article 6.3c with Article 6.1 ECHR cases were slam-dunk for the applicant.

Good on ya for posting the Dvorski v Croatia case.

Don't worry CoulsdonUK. I am following Numbers' posts closely, am firmly pro-innocence and a lawyer myself but don't think her application is a slam.
 
Don't worry CoulsdonUK. I am following Numbers' posts closely, am firmly pro-innocence and a lawyer myself but don't think her application is a slam.

I would be fascinated to hear any professional arguments for guilt even as a purely intellectual exercise attempting to overcome Salduz and post Salduz case law.
 
Gosh! I was starting to get the impression from previous posts that any or all Article 6.3c with Article 6.1 ECHR cases were slam-dunk for the applicant.

Good on ya for posting the Dvorski v Croatia case.

Coulsdon,
There was also the Ibrahim case. That gave the 5-point outline the ECHR says it is using to evaluate the fairness in terms of possible Convention violation for these types of cases (interrogation without lawyer followed by conviction for something said by subject during interrogation).
 
I would be fascinated to hear any professional arguments for guilt even as a purely intellectual exercise attempting to overcome Salduz and post Salduz case law.

They would be arguments for fairness rather than guilt, surely. I suspect we have seen a fair approximation in Mach's posts and that the scheme of the argument would take the form:

A none of her rights have been infringed at all, alternatively
B if any were, the affects were fully resolved and addressed in the further course of the proceedings.
 
Don't worry CoulsdonUK. I am following Numbers' posts closely, am firmly pro-innocence and a lawyer myself but don't think her application is a slam.

Coulsdon,
There was also the Ibrahim case. That gave the 5-point outline the ECHR says it is using to evaluate the fairness in terms of possible Convention violation for these types of cases (interrogation without lawyer followed by conviction for something said by subject during interrogation).

anglo,
Can you fit an estimated application for Ms. Knox against the 5-point ECHR outline and come up with a non-violation of Convention Articles 6.3c with 6.1?

Are there alternative applications based on the known facts in her case that would pass the 5-point outline and other alternatives that would not?
 
anglo,
Can you fit an estimated application for Ms. Knox against the 5-point ECHR outline and come up with a non-violation of Convention Articles 6.3c with 6.1?

Are there alternative applications based on the known facts in her case that would pass the 5-point outline and other alternatives that would not?

I am biased in her favour when it comes to 'the known facts'. I also have a chess game to go to so I'll see you later. :)
 
Gosh! I was starting to get the impression from previous posts that any or all Article 6.3c with Article 6.1 ECHR cases were slam-dunk for the applicant.

Good on ya for posting the Dvorski v Croatia case.

Not all, probably not this one (though it's going to appeal). The circumstances of Ms Knox's claim are different. This guy got a lawyer, just not the one his parents hired. There are other profound differences.

You could make all kinds of complaints of complex multiple violations at different times across a number of articles in Ms Knox's case and engineer a very interesting debate, but what you cannot get away from are statements used without benefit of counsel to convict. There is nothing in the case law that supports it. Only a terrible mistake or the court reversing it's direction can affect the outcome.
 
Yes, I agree. Still, the pro-innocence case is not easy to swallow if you don't have close knowledge of the case. Of all the cases I have looked at in any detail (maybe a dozen or so) this is by far the most complicated.

There are enough cases with shades similar to this case to not consider it impossible, many cases where innocence is pretty clear but yet are still prosecuted. Many do include confessions though.
 
They would be arguments for fairness rather than guilt, surely. I suspect we have seen a fair approximation in Mach's posts and that the scheme of the argument would take the form:

A none of her rights have been infringed at all, alternatively
B if any were, the affects were fully resolved and addressed in the further course of the proceedings.

Lazy of me to use guilt - sorry. Fairness is correct - violations.

I don't see an argument for B in the light of the case law. You could argue B only if the statements were excluded - it doesn't matter that the court used Italian law to admit them. It matters that the application of domestic law was not convention compliant. But if they had been excluded, there would have been no evidence.

A. is not an argument. It's a statement.
 
Yes, I agree. Still, the pro-innocence case is not easy to swallow if you don't have close knowledge of the case. Of all the cases I have looked at in any detail (maybe a dozen or so) this is by far the most complicated.

It's only "complicated" because of the antics of the police and prosecution, and the sheer volume of bogus claims on their part.
 
Not all, probably not this one (though it's going to appeal). The circumstances of Ms Knox's claim are different. This guy got a lawyer, just not the one his parents hired. There are other profound differences.

You could make all kinds of complaints of complex multiple violations at different times across a number of articles in Ms Knox's case and engineer a very interesting debate, but what you cannot get away from are statements used without benefit of counsel to convict. There is nothing in the case law that supports it. Only a terrible mistake or the court reversing it's direction can affect the outcome.

Two possible alleged novelties in Ms. Knox's case, at least according to guilters, is that what she was suspected of (which was what?) was not what she was convicted of (calunnia) and the statement that she made incriminated someone else, not her. Therefore, because of these novelties, Salduz v Turkey and subsequent case law does not apply, according to the guilters.

I don't believe that the 5-point outline in Ibrahim and others v the UK gives room for these alleged novelties to reduce or eliminate the violation in this case.

For one thing, Amanda Knox was being interrogated specifically (in part) to give the name of someone - someone who was the murder/rapist. She did not name Patrick Lumumba or anyone as that person before the interrogation, and after the interrogation, in her Memoriales 1 and 2, she warned that her identification of him was unreliable (M.1) or completely untrustworthy (M.2). These Memoriales were written before she was provided with a lawyer. When she had the lawyer, and some time to recover from the stress of the interrogation, she consistently did not claim the Lumumba was known to her as the murderer.

Secondly, her statements from interrogation incriminated her as obstructing justice by not informing the police of her supposed knowledge of who the killer was immediately. But more to the point, they incriminated her as someone who had committed calunnia, because the statements were false accusations. But she did not know the statements were false, because she was not in fact a witness to the murder, she was not at the cottage at the time of the murders. It was the suggestions and coercive methods of the police - including the admitted suggestions of that trauma can induce amnesia by the "interpreter/mediator" Anna Donnino - that altered Ms. Knox's will and temporarily, her memory, resulting in her naming someone as the murder. But by following the police pressure to name someone, and a particular person whom the police obviously suspected, she incriminated herself in the Italian crime of calunnia. Since she had no lawyer during this interrogation, and she was convicted of calunnia, her case, IMO, matches the Salduz model and will be found to be a violation of Convention Articles 6.3c with Article 6.1.
 
I referred to this case earlier, Numbers, perhaps without sufficient explanation. The Dvorski case is "relevant" in that it reveals the circumstances in which the court is minded not to support applicants' claims under Article 6 in respect of pre-trial activity. It provides a contrasting position to Ms Knox's.

It is useful to consider such cases where applicants are unsuccessful with similar claims of rights violations in order to understand the practical limits of the positions applicants may take with the court in order to be succesful.

Dvorski's position is demonstrably much weaker than Ms Knox's.

There seems to be an argument doing the rounds that even if Ms Knox is succesful at the ECHR, she will likely be awarded a few thousand euros and that will be the end of the matter. In other words, her conviction and sentence will remain unaffected and so her victory would be hollow. This is not so. Through the council of ministers and with the willing cooperation of Italy, conviction and sentencing will be set aside.
One way or another, the other convictions in these cases, either through direct acquittal or retrial or by way of further applications to the ECHR must also fall. What is particularly intruiguing is that there will be lawyers, judges and politicians in Italy who have worked this out already.

{Highlighting added to quote.}

The guilters who discuss the ECHR generally misstate by omission that the follow-on is by the Council of Ministers and the Respondent State itself.

Assuming that the ECHR rules that there has been a violation of Convention Article 6.1 with 6.3c in this case, then the usual redress in to request a retrial fully applying the Convention. That would exclude the crime itself, since the only "crime" was statements. There could be no retrial. Also, as pointed out by Diocletus, there would be an issue of statute of limitations, which may have passed by the time any retrial would commence. Thus, Ms. Knox's conviction for calunnia would need to be voided. I presume the issue of compensation by Italy, beyond the ECHR just satisfaction, would come up. Such compensation is required by Italian law and Constitution and by ECHR Convention Protocol 7 Article 3. (The latter specifies the wrongfulness of a conviction having been found by a newly discovered fact; in this case, the fact will be a newly acknowledged one by the judiciary. I am sure some will argue about this.)
 
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anglolawyer said:
Don't worry CoulsdonUK. I am following Numbers' posts closely, am firmly pro-innocence and a lawyer myself but don't think her application is a slam.

I would be fascinated to hear any professional arguments for guilt even as a purely intellectual exercise attempting to overcome Salduz and post Salduz case law.

I am to the ECHR what tsig and platonov are to the RS and AK case: a rank amateur with little command of specifics, but with a smell test.

There is no way I can evaluate the Salduz case as an intellectual exercise.

Shifting gears a bit, to the Nyki Kish case: after reading Justice Nordheimer's reason for judgement, as to why he convicted - I thought that his layout of the case could never survive appeal. Nordheimer starts by acknowledging the diffculty, and perhaps the impossibility, to locate a series of dots from a street melee which could convict anyone.

Yet Nordheimer proceeds to do exactly what he'd said was nearly impossible - lining up a row of dots for himself - some of which were complete inventions, and some of them reasonably should have been superseded by other dots - to draw an irresistible inference of her guilt.

It was smoke and mirrors that I became convinced would be overturned at appeal. Yet it turned out the appeal ruled on what was presented to them, and basically said that the defence brief did not challenge the core "dots" that Nordheimer had pulled out of the melee (or even out of thin air) to draw his inference. (No matter that the appeals court all-but said that a second person was also completely convictable, someone (IIRC) had been charged but released by Toronto Police.)

OK, that's about it for my arm-chair, Monday morning analysis - and I bet my friend anglolawyer has already spotted five or ten muffs on my part. I mean, despite the reputation he has elsewhere, he is, in fact, a real-live breathing lawyer.

Back to the purely intellectual exercise of parsing ECHR stuff.... I'm with tsig and platonov in spirit on this; all I have is the smell test, and I actually believe that no one ECHR bureaucrat will do 1/10th of the parsing of the AK calunnia case that Numbers has done on this thread. Then again, it is also flu season so who knows if my smeller is working properly....

My prediction is the ECHR will come up with something completely 90 degrees from anything any innocentisti or guilter here (or elsewhere) has said about it. On this I am channelling my inner-CoulsdonUK.
 
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Anthony said:
It's only "complicated" because of the antics of the police and prosecution, and the sheer volume of bogus claims on their part.

I agree completely.

Ah...................................... "all the other evidence".

That is the core competency of the Pro--guilt PR lobby, the ability to reply to the latest collapse of an item of evidence with, "Yes, but then there's all the other evidence."

This is the reason why people post so much about this case - trying to chase all this "other evidence" that always recedes to the horizon when one sets sail and departs the comforts of shore to chase them.

This case is not complicated - really. Early on there was a PLE group who would simply go looking for shopkeepers, hobos, or old-deaf ladies above the cottage when other bits of evidence fell apart. I mean, if Stefanoni's work had been a slam dunk, why even risk bringing Curatolo into a courtroom?

I am a fundamentalist of Jeffery Toobin, CNN analyst. He said on the night of the Oct 2011 acquittals that the acquittals were based on there being no real evidence of their guilt. He then turned to talk about something else. Why? Because with no real evidence of their guilt, why would someone want to know what Curatolo thought about Oct 31.... er, Nov 1st, yes, it must have been Nov 1st. (Did they let Curatolo consult a calendar after refusing one to Raffaele?)

On then CNN-host Piers Morgan's show, where he appeared with Gloria Allred, Toobin was similarly brief. After Morgan had done his obligatory, "There's something Knox is not telling us," and Allred did her, "Italy's legal system precludes being able to do business in the country," Toobin piped up about the effects of the March 2013 reversal of the acquittals:

Paraphrase: "Look, let's cut to the chase. Amanda Knox is not going anywhere. My advice to her would be to forget about all this and settle into the rest of her life here in the USA." (He had no advice for Raffaele.)

My sense is that Toobin is tired of being taken down the road of cartwheels, sex-on-a-train, calls to mom at noon, arguments over door-locking habits, staged break-ins which obviously were not, phantom knives picked out of drawers because they were too clean (yet still yielded phantom DNA "evidence"!!!).....

Toobin is full value for cutting to the chase about the obviousness of this case, and its relative simplicity. Part of the simplicity is that there's someone out there in Internet-land (as well as in the Italian judiciary through harmonizing it with the Guede-process) wanting to make this horribly straightforward murder (committed by Rudy Guede) into something else.

Heck, Barbie Nadeau made a lot of money selling the rights to her book to Michael Winterbottom based on her refrain, "Knox knows something she's not telling us," only to have Winterbottom reverse field on her and make her out to be a tabloid hack and a slut. (BTW - "The Face of an Angel" is now slated for general release in June 2015. I wonder if it will survive the weekend when the box-office is picketed by guilters!)

This is not a complex case.... ah, but there's "all the other evidence!"
 
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I am to the ECHR what tsig and platonov are to the RS and AK case: a rank amateur with little command of specifics, but with a smell test.

There is no way I can evaluate the Salduz case as an intellectual exercise.

Shifting gears a bit, to the Nyki Kish case: after reading Justice Nordheimer's reason for judgement, as to why he convicted - I thought that his layout of the case could never survive appeal. Nordheimer starts by acknowledging the diffculty, and perhaps the impossibility, to locate a series of dots from a street melee which could convict anyone.

Yet Nordheimer proceeds to do exactly what he'd said was nearly impossible - lining up a row of dots for himself - some of which were complete inventions, and some of them reasonably should have been superseded by other dots - to draw an irresistible inference of her guilt.

It was smoke and mirrors that I became convinced would be overturned at appeal. Yet it turned out the appeal ruled on what was presented to them, and basically said that the defence brief did not challenge the core "dots" that Nordheimer had pulled out of the melee (or even out of thin air) to draw his inference. (No matter that the appeals court all-but said that a second person was also completely convictable, someone (IIRC) had been charged but released by Toronto Police.)

OK, that's about it for my arm-chair, Monday morning analysis - and I bet my friend anglolawyer has already spotted five or ten muffs on my part. I mean, despite the reputation he has elsewhere, he is, in fact, a real-live breathing lawyer.

Back to the purely intellectual exercise of parsing ECHR stuff.... I'm with tsig and platonov in spirit on this; all I have is the smell test, and I actually believe that no one ECHR bureaucrat will do 1/10th of the parsing of the AK calunnia case that Numbers has done on this thread. Then again, it is also flu season so who knows if my smeller is working properly....

My prediction is the ECHR will come up with something completely 90 degrees from anything any innocentisti or guilter here (or elsewhere) has said about it. On this I am channelling my inner-CoulsdonUK.

I would expect the court judges to be fully versed in all aspects of convention case law but also all international human rights law. I would expect them to have an excellent recall of case issues and arguments as well as dissenting and concurring opinion. What they may lack, however, is an instinctive grasp of Italian criminal and constitutional law and for this they will have research assistance.
 
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I would expect the court judges to be fully versed in all aspects of convention case law but also all international human rights law. I would expect them to have an excellent recall of case issues and arguments as well as dissenting and concurring opinion. What they may lack, however, is an instinctive grasp of Italian criminal and constitutional law and for this they will have research assistance.

May all your expectations come true!

Yet one would also expect Italy's Supreme Court to understand who burden of proof belongs to.

If rational people's expectations had been met, you and I would never have run tino each other. Amanda Knox would be living a relatively free life in Seattle, Raffaele would long since have been into a computing science career, and the Kerchers would have got justice with the conviction of the sole killer of their loved-one, and not the wild-goose chase of these last seven years.
 
I would expect the court judges to be fully versed in all aspects of convention case law but also all international human rights law. I would expect them to have an excellent recall of case issues and arguments as well as dissenting and concurring opinion. What they may lack, however, is an instinctive grasp of Italian criminal and constitutional law and for this they will have research assistance.

Given the third level trial scheduled for March 2015 and the ECHR application backlog, I am increasingly of the opinion that events will overtake the caluunia application. If as many here, seem to believe the Court of Cassation does confirm Raffaele and Amanda’s conviction then by the end of this year, they will be submitting their ECHR applications stemming for their conviction. Indeed, how would a calunnia decision in a year or two change Raffaele’s status?
 
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