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Continuation Part 11: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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It is revealing that the Migninians don't recognize - or don't wish to recognize - their Leader's profound and sacred utterances.

Oh, I think Machiavelli recognizes it now. Be prepared for ten pages on the proper translation of the word 'rite' ( a misdirect) whilst completely ignoring the implications of the fact Mignini said that the perpetrators couldn't 'miss' the 'opportunity' of the Halloween/All Saint's Day/Day of the Dead weekend. That's both premeditation and kooky occult nonsense Mignini is pushing there, something he since repudiated and hopes no one else remembers...
 
Since you and others rest your case on Raffaele's knife acquiring Meredith's dna during the murder, and leaving a blood outline on the pillow as secondary proof, then being returned to the apartment, cleaned and placed back in the drawer to maintain the chattels inventory, there are few scenarios for the knife.
1. Amanda is convicted of transporting it, but if for cooking purposes this must be legal, otherwise no knife could be purchased at a store, and transported for cooking purposes in Italy.
2. Therefore for it to be a crime, as Massei found it was, it could not be for this purpose, but an illegal purpose, which could only be self defence or premeditated murder.

Is self-defense not a legal purpose for carrying a knife outside one's residence in Italy?

If so, why was that charge not raised against Rudy Guede when he was found in possession of a knife when the police searched and arrested (if they did they arrest him? - it's not clear) him in the Milan nursery. Did they not find a knife, probably taken from the nursery kitchen, in his possessions or on his person?
 
We've read them, Machiavelli, together. They're in these threads! :)

If one tracks down the transcripts for that day they reveal that the full quote is something to the effect that the Halloween/All Saint's Day/Day of the Dead (!) weekend was an 'opportunity' that the perpetrators couldn't 'miss'--for whatever reason--to perform their sexual sacrificial 'rite.' Doncha remember the big tussle you got into with someone over the nuances and translation of the word 'rite?'

At the end of the Massei trial, Mignini refers to the murder as a "progetto" - a project. He mentions Halloween, the day of the dead etc, all consistent with the above.
 
The police are supposed to treat the person as an informant if interrogated, unless there is already incriminating evidence against that person.
They make no mistake if they do so.
But if the person becomes a formal suspect subsequently, the statements he/she released when he/she was already a suspect with incriminating evidence against him/her, as well as the self I criminating statements, cannot be used against the person.
The code admits that the police may decide that one is a suspect in the wrong moment, too late, and makes no fuss about it. Simply re-sets the limit of usability of collected evidence so that statements he/she released as a suspect are not used.
In general, the precise moment she a person should have been considered as a suspect is decided only later, by the preliminary judge or by other judicial organs. The police are not tasked with making this assessment in real time.

That's all fine, except:

1. It improperly incentivizes the police to continue to interrogate people who they know are suspects, instead of allowing them access to counsel

2. The police/prosecution may misuse the ensuing statements, e.g., by presenting them in pretrial proceedings, resulting in publication of the statements

3. The process you describe fails, if the prosecution improperly presents the statement at trial, and it ends up being used to convict the defendant
 
Is self-defense not a legal purpose for carrying a knife outside one's residence in Italy?

If so, why was that charge not raised against Rudy Guede when he was found in possession of a knife when the police searched and arrested (if they did they arrest him? - it's not clear) him in the Milan nursery. Did they not find a knife, probably taken from the nursery kitchen, in his possessions or on his person?
It will probably be covered by Rudy being in a private place ;). Typically knives over a certain length, or concealed etc. are crimes, but I am no expert.

It is remarkable nevertheless that Amanda was charged or accused of all the crimes or potential crimes Guede was associated with in the nursery. Carrying a knife, stealing electronic goods, and stealing money. On the latter, I think it is safe to assume Rudy had no intention of returning the petty cash before leaving the nursery.

Maybe it was Rudy who committed the crimes at 7 Villa Pergola Amanda is convicted of.
 
At the end of the Massei trial, Mignini refers to the murder as a "progetto" - a project. He mentions Halloween, the day of the dead etc, all consistent with the above.

Did he do that at the Massei trial too? I think this is his closing remarks from the Micheli trial but was mistaken by some as Mignini's close at the Massei trial. I can't read Italian and don't recall for certain but I think that's what you may be referring to. If not then I'd be delighted to be corrected on this and find that he did the same at the end of the Massei trial.
 
Oh, I think Machiavelli recognizes it now. Be prepared for ten pages on the proper translation of the word 'rite' ( a misdirect) whilst completely ignoring the implications of the fact Mignini said that the perpetrators couldn't 'miss' the 'opportunity' of the Halloween/All Saint's Day/Day of the Dead weekend. That's both premeditation and kooky occult nonsense Mignini is pushing there, something he since repudiated and hopes no one else remembers...

The quote means nothing to me either way, but I would like to read the original transcript of the court session.

If I remember correctly (and I don't have time to research it at the moment and I can't verify it) this quote was actually from one of Knox's lawyers who talking to Nick Pisa after the session. So it was a quote of a quote of a quote that went from Italian to English and back again.

But if there is an actual transcript of the court session in Italian I would like to read it.

BTW: At least in the early stages of the investigation, that a satanic ritual would be thought of, does not sound particularly strange considering the holiday context and other factors of the crime.
 
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Did he do that at the Massei trial too? I think this is his closing remarks from the Micheli trial but was mistaken by some as Mignini's close at the Massei trial. I can't read Italian and don't recall for certain but I think that's what you may be referring to. If not then I'd be delighted to be corrected on this and find that he did the same at the end of the Massei trial.

Sorry, but your link won't work. Here's the source at Mr Sollecito's website. He gives the English translation and links to the Original Italian of Mignini's closing to the Massei trial with page references.

http://www.raffaelesollecito.org/?page_id=612&lang=en
 
It will probably be covered by Rudy being in a private place ;). Typically knives over a certain length, or concealed etc. are crimes, but I am no expert.

It is remarkable nevertheless that Amanda was charged or accused of all the crimes or potential crimes Guede was associated with in the nursery. Carrying a knife, stealing electronic goods, and stealing money. On the latter, I think it is safe to assume Rudy had no intention of returning the petty cash before leaving the nursery.

I think it's also safe to assume that had he not been interrupted (caught in the act!) that Rudy Guede would have been leaving the nursery with more than just the petty cash and their knife. He was mussing around with the computer connections when she came upon him....

Maybe it was Rudy who committed the crimes at 7 Villa Pergola Amanda is convicted of.

With this statement you display more investigative acumen than the entirety of the Italian law enforcement professionals who worked on this case.
 
pmop57 is doing on IIP with "The Anatomy of the Case", what Numbers is doing here with the CHR. Going through in detail relevancy of various issues; one of which is the issue of the "simultneous turning off of the cellphones at Raffaele's."

Originally Posted by pmop57
The cell-phones switched OFF - Evidence of Guilt?

The evening of the the 1th of Nov. 2007 AK and RS simultanousy switched OFF their cell-phones.

For the Prosecution this was major probative evidence of guilt because it was clearly showing that both intended to avoid their whereabouts to be later traced by the Police, that it was proof that both had planned to commit a crime, that both had planned to murder MK, that the crime was premeditated.

The Prosecution never could present any evidence to support their allegations, no Judge ever ruled that the murder was premeditated. Nevertheless the Posecution continued to proclame that switching OFF the cell-phones was evidence of guilt.
Prosecutor Crini and Judge Nencini definitely ruled out premeditation.

The stating and ruling of the Judges that the murder had not been premeditated, the alleged evidence of guilt became evidence in favour of the defendants because it proved them right and confirmed their version of the why they had switched OFF the cell-phones. This aspect was completely ignored!

The profile of the phoning habits of AK and RS as established by the investigators has clearly shown that both never went offline the months prior to the occurrence of the crime except the evening of the 1t of Nov. 2007.

After it had been established through the facts that the crime was not premeditated why else should they have gone offline but to spent a quite and calm evening without being disturbed by anybody:
- not to be called by PL to nevertheless come to work,
- not be called back another time by RS's father, very much caring and apparently very dominating his

In short, the only possible relevance of the switching off of the phones to this case is if one presumes premeditation.

No premeditation, no relevance to the action surrounding the phones.

Which is, of course, the implications of all the courts - none of which found premeditation. Massei found it as a last second, "choice for evil" where AK and RS inexplicably sided with Guede over Kercher, and Nencini had an escalating dispute over the rent money.

It's the same as with the phantom-transport of Raffaele's kitchen knife; except that in this case that transport from the apartment to the cottage never happened. But both Massei and Nencini had to address some phantom reason for that knife to be transported, given that neither could see premeditation, even in their fantasy recreation of the crime.

Fortunately, neither does Machiavelli see the phones-switching as relevant to the crime, either, except for his lame point that, "Raffaele lied".

It's worth the read for folks here to go through all of pmop57's points on IIP. If this was a just evaluation of the case, Cassazione itself would go through the issues one by one like pmop57 is doing (or Numbers) and decide accordingly.

However, no one believes Mignini on this point any more - not even Machiavelli. It's good to know that Machiavelli will throw the towel in on something, and not mindlessly defend Mignini on everything.

It is not likely that they could actually establish whether or not Amanda and Raffaele occasionally turned off their phones. There is no log kept on the phones and not only don't most cell phone companies keep logs of this, if they did, they would not be able to tell the difference between when a phone is out of reach of a tower and when it was turned off.
 
The quote means nothing to me either way, but I would like to read the original transcript of the court session.

If I remember correctly (and I don't have time to research it at the moment and I can't verify it) this quote was actually from one of Knox's lawyers who talking to Nick Pisa after the session. So it was a quote of a quote of a quote that went from Italian to English and back again.

But if there is an actual transcript of the court session in Italian I would like to read it.

BTW: At least in the early stages of the investigation, that a satanic ritual would be thought of, does not sound particularly strange considering the holiday context and other factors of the crime.

Go here: http://www.raffaelesollecito.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/requisitoria-PM.pdf

Page 46 and page 49, and anything else you wish to read. It's Mignini's closing remarks - either to Micheli or Massei; there appears to be some doubt which you might resolve.
 
Bill Williams said:
.... this is only a slight shift in topic, Machiavelli, but nonetheless telling.

So in suggesting that it was a premeditated act associated with the day of the dead, even Mignini did not have the courage of his convictions ( or knew he had no evidence) to go for this as an aggravating factor.

(...)

No, you don't understand. This is not an aggravating factor. The charge of aggravation in a murder charge means something different. It means there is a plan, decided while cold-minded and some time on advance, to eliminate somebody. It is the murder that needs to be planned on order to have a premeditation circumstance, not the party, not a rape or a burglary or a prank nor another action.

You're still going along a differing thread.... Mignini said the crime was premeditated. You're now trying to prove that he did not seek the charge of aggravation in the murder charge because of it, which is slightly different.

You need to ask Mr. Mignini why he did not pursue this, when his overall theory was that it was a premeditated act; namely, a "rite" associated with the "day of the dead", but delayed by a day. The delay for a day can only mean one thing - premeditation.

Whatever it was which AK and RS were supposed to have turned off their cell phones for, whatever it was which caused AK and RS to transport that kitchen knife with menace in mind.....

.... speaks to premeditation. No court, esp. no convicting court, agrees. Indeed, both Nencini and Massei go out of their way to give innocent reason for AK and RS to bring that knife (Massei said it was for protection while en route, and Nencini speculated that there was a normal sharing of cutlery between the two abodes).

In other words, they had to speak to why this WASN'T a premeditated act.

Other agile minded people on this thread are picking up and running with this. It's just stunning reading Machiavelli in retreat mode on this.

One thing I guarantee he will not do. Now that Machiavelli has also repudiated premeditation, I guarantee he will not discipline (while speaking as Yummi) any of the other pro-guilt lobby about this.

Indeed - speaking of theories of psychopathology the pro-guilt lobby default to - with similarly neither Massei nor Nencini seeing psychopathology as part of this..... will Machiavelli eventually come around on that too? (Why would he: it is just so much fun slandering strangers about psychological things, isn't it!?)

Finally - to repeat: Machiavelli defends Mignini, and is fairly agnostic, really, about Massei or Nencini. Machiavelli defends Andrea Vogt, and regards Barbie Latza Nadeau as an "approximate reporter".

It is clear who Machiavelli is here to defend - Mignini. Not Massei, not the March 2013 version of Cassazione, not Crini, and not so much Nencini. He's here (in single or multiple form) to defend Mignini.

Why's that?
 
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Sorry, but your link won't work. Here's the source at Mr Sollecito's website. He gives the English translation and links to the Original Italian of Mignini's closing to the Massei trial with page references.

http://www.raffaelesollecito.org/?page_id=612&lang=en

The Italian starts with: "Signor Giudice dell'udienza preliminare,..." "GUP", that is judge Micheli.
The quote from page 46 is:
E va sottolineato che, in ogni caso, per soggetti, morbosamente attratti dalla commistione di sesso e di violenza, è tutt'altro che inverosimile la connessione di tale progetto alla tradizione di Halloween, perché se è vero che la notte tra il 31 ottobre e il primo novembre era passata (e Meredith l'aveva trascorsa con le sue amiche connazionali), è altrettanto vero che, alle 21 circa del primo novembre e per le successive tre ore, si fosse ancora nella giornata di Ognissanti e che quello che non si fosse potuto realizzare nella notte di viglia della Festività dei Santi, si potesse realizzare nella notte di passaggio da quest'ultima alla Festività dei Defunti.
The one from page 49:
Inoltre, i tre e soprattutto Sollecito, erano tutti dipendenti dalle suggestioni "culturali" erotico - omicide di cui s'è parlato e quella notte era ancora la giornata della Festività dei Santi, "erede" cattolica del capodanno celtico Samhain, con tutte le implicazioni che hanno il loro punto centrale nella vigilia della Festa, cioè nella notte tra il 31 ottobre e il primo novembre
 
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Sorry, but your link won't work.

What happens when you click the link? It brings up a 131 page .pdf for me.

Here's the source at Mr Sollecito's website.

Yes, this is the same document and Raffaele's is the ultimate source. This link (from Raffaele's site) brings up the same exact document as mine does, including the 'PM' scribbled at the top of the page.

He gives the English translation and links to the Original Italian of Mignini's closing to the Massei trial with page references.

I think that's the close at the Micheli trial though, as Methos noted, that begins by addressing the judge of the preliminary hearing (Signor Giudice dell’udienza preliminare) which ought to have been Micheli. If you read through it you'll see Kokomani's name come up almost immediately and it's mostly about Rudy Guede, though of course since Mignini is prosecuting all three of them Amanda and Raffaele's names come up often. Here's a page that can be put through google translate, I think Raffaele just attributed it wrong and we noticed that a year or two ago when going through these, but am willing to be corrected if I'm mistaken. :)

ETA: Methos crossposted with mine, I had no idea he was still following this thread!
 
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What happens when you click the link? It brings up a 131 page .pdf for me.



Yes, this is the same document and Raffaele's is the ultimate source. This link (from Raffaele's site) brings up the same exact document as mine does, including the 'PM' scribbled at the top of the page.



I think that's the close at the Micheli trial though, as Methos noted, that begins by addressing the judge of the preliminary hearing (Signor Giudice dell’udienza preliminare) which ought to have been Micheli. If you read through it you'll see Kokomani's name come up almost immediately and it's mostly about Rudy Guede, though of course since Mignini is prosecuting all three of them Amanda and Raffaele's name come up often. Here's a page that can be put through google translate, I think Raffaele just attributed it wrong and we noticed that a year or two ago when going through these, but am willing to be corrected if I'm mistaken. :)

ETA: Methos crossposted with mine, I had no idea he was still following this thread!

Yes, got it. You and Methos are correct. I should have noticed the first line.
 
I think you have to be logged in on IIP to download the file ;)

Ah, OK, I didn't know that. Thanks for the (all too rare) appearance here. I didn't even know you were following this thread anymore, your crosspost surprised the hell out of me!
 
The quote means nothing to me either way, but I would like to read the original transcript of the court session.

If I remember correctly (and I don't have time to research it at the moment and I can't verify it) this quote was actually from one of Knox's lawyers who talking to Nick Pisa after the session. So it was a quote of a quote of a quote that went from Italian to English and back again.

But if there is an actual transcript of the court session in Italian I would like to read it.

BTW: At least in the early stages of the investigation, that a satanic ritual would be thought of, does not sound particularly strange considering the holiday context and other factors of the crime.

This is from after the 'investigation' was completed, Mignini's remarks at the close of Rudy Guede's trial which would lead to Raffaele and Amanda having to also stand trial for Rudy Guede's crime. Here's the document in Italian.
 
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