Continuation Part 11: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[acbytesla]

Originally Posted by Vibio View Post
Not a national terrorist organization, but evidence may have led to the belief that she was part of part of a (more than local) drug ring. And one that murder

This is just silly.

She was an innocent young college student, literally kidnapped by a corrupt prosecutor with a history of delusional fantasizing of satanic sect conspiracies, which he tried to fit this case into.

Zero real evidence, contrived lies and pseudo science is all that was ever offered, and idiot corrupt judges went along for the ride. They should just put barbed wire around the whole Questura as a continuous crimes scene.

Where your bias comes against knox comes from is just a complete mystery. Focus on Mignini and the police in this case and maybe you'll start to understand this miscarriage of justice.

You really have to wonder what clouds these people's minds.

If one thing is wrong...just plug some other crazy theory in there and call it good.

Satanic ritual...no.....Sex orgy gone wrong....no.. 300 Euros missing...no international drug ring. Yea...that's the ticket.

 

[Bill Williams]

Not a national terrorist organization, but evidence may have led to the belief that she was part of part of a (more than local) drug ring. And one that murder

This is just silly.

She was an innocent young college student, literally kidnapped by a corrupt prosecutor with a history of delusional fantasizing of satanic sect conspiracies, which he tried to fit this case into.

Zero real evidence, contrived lies and pseudo science is all that was ever offered, and idiot corrupt judges went along for the ride. They should just put barbed wire around the whole Questura as a continuous crimes scene.

Where your bias comes against knox comes from is just a complete mystery. Focus on Mignini and the police in this case and maybe you'll start to understand this miscarriage of justice.

You really have to wonder what clouds these people's minds.

If one thing is wrong...just plug some other crazy theory in there and call it good.

Satanic ritual...no.....Sex orgy gone wrong....no.. 300 Euros missing...no international drug ring. Yea...that's the ticket.

acbytesla - your knowledge of the case is sorely lacking. It was the pooh in the toilet. Yes, that's it. Crini the prosecutor called it and everyone since has been ignoring him.

If nothing else, the pro-guilt lobby has an obscure 20-year-old from boring Seattle leading a 007-sort of life.

 

[anglolawyer]

Yeah. If it was an emergency, the mignini would have been derelict if he only acted as a "notary". And Italian magistrates are never, ever derelict (well, except for taking body temperature, but that was really someone else's fault).

This whole "emergency" thing is a red herring, anyway, because it doesn't seem to impact the admissibility analysis in any way.

Mach reheats it about every nine months and it always gets the same set of responses.

Not a national terrorist organization, but evidence may have led to the belief that she was part of part of a (more than local) drug ring. And one that murders.

Yes, let's add this to the list of absurd, fantastical things that just might be true despite there being not a shred of evidence for them but which PGPs are openly willing to subscribe to without apparent irony.

 

[anglolawyer]

acbytesla - your knowledge of the case is sorely lacking. It was the pooh in the toilet. Yes, that's it. Crini the prosecutor called it and everyone since has been ignoring him.

If nothing else, the pro-guilt lobby has an obscure 20-year-old from boring Seattle leading a 007-sort of life.

She was probably running the numbers and racketeering in all sorts of other ways within days of touching down. I doubt we've heard the half of it. It will all come out in the fulness of time. Meanwhile, the legion of people who could make a buck by selling their stories of unsavoury pimping and drug pushing are all mysteriously keeping 100% loyal to the Godmother. Must be omertà or something.

 

[Kauffer]

She was probably running the numbers and racketeering in all sorts of other ways within days of touching down. I doubt we've heard the half of it. It will all come out in the fulness of time. Meanwhile, the legion of people who could make a buck by selling their stories of unsavoury pimping and drug pushing are all mysteriously keeping 100% loyal to the Godmother. Must be omertà or something.

"the Godmother" haha. Very good!

 

[acbytesla]

acbytesla - your knowledge of the case is sorely lacking. It was the pooh in the toilet. Yes, that's it. Crini the prosecutor called it and everyone since has been ignoring him.

If nothing else, the pro-guilt lobby has an obscure 20-year-old from boring Seattle leading a 007-sort of life.

I didn't forget the poop, I just didn't want to remember that sht.

 

[Desert Fox]

This is just silly.

She was an innocent young college student, literally kidnapped by a corrupt prosecutor with a history of delusional fantasizing of satanic sect conspiracies, which he tried to fit this case into.

Zero real evidence, contrived lies and pseudo science is all that was ever offered, and idiot corrupt judges went along for the ride. They should just put barbed wire around the whole Questura as a continuous crimes scene.

Where your bias comes against knox comes from is just a complete mystery. Focus on Mignini and the police in this case and maybe you'll start to understand this miscarriage of justice.

I have to consider it most likely, in part or completely, an anti-American bias.
The problem is that the Italian anti-American bias seemes to be aimed at the wrong people.

 

[Bill Williams]

She was probably running the numbers and racketeering in all sorts of other ways within days of touching down. I doubt we've heard the half of it. It will all come out in the fulness of time. Meanwhile, the legion of people who could make a buck by selling their stories of unsavoury pimping and drug pushing are all mysteriously keeping 100% loyal to the Godmother. Must be omertà or something.

I blame libertine Washington State. Liberal marijuana laws. Same-sex marriage. My bet is that Amanda was running an underground homosexual-ring as well within hours of arriving in Perugia.

The Masons call this conspiracy the introduction of "The 12th Man." It is rumoured the Masons have also taken over the Seahawks, because you see this "12th Man" flag raised at the beginning of every home game.

Is it a coincidence that Known-Knoxians have been seen raising these flags at football games because of the manipulation of Gogerty-Marriott? That PR firm has literally bought off all of Seattle.***

Italians know nothing of omertà. In fact none of the city of Seattle can now be seen from I5, the whole thing is shrouded in so much secrecy and dietrology.

Please do not blame Amanda for running one of the largest upcountry drug cartels in Italy within hours of training into Perugia. Those pipsqueak drug-lord wannabees never knew what hit them.

(Note to pro-guilt lobby: this is parody. Not very good parody, but parody nonetheless.)


*** This is added because one of the comments on the newspiece covering the petition to the Italian G'vt about this case, included someone saying that they'd not been bought off by the pro-innocence PR-campaign from Gogerty-Marriott. I though, "Geez, this is 2014, does anyone really believe THAT anymore?"

 

[Numbers]

Not a national terrorist organization, but evidence may have led to the belief that she was part of part of a (more than local) drug ring. And one that murders.

Is today April 1?

Let's call up the zoo and ask to speak to Mr. Wolf.

 

[Numbers]

I have to consider it most likely, in part or completely, an anti-American bias.
The problem is that the Italian anti-American bias seemes to be aimed at the wrong people.

DF,
Are you saying that the Italians are in error in that they are directing their anti-American bias at persons who are not Americans?

 

[Kauffer]

"It has been convincingly established that at the time of the impugned police interviews there was an exceptionally serious and imminent threat to public safety, and that this threat provided compelling reasons which justified the temporary delay of all four applicants' access to lawyers."

Abdulrahman had argued that he should have been arrested and offered access to a lawyer when he began incriminating himself in an interview as a witness.
The court said the decision not to arrest him at this stage was not unreasonable "based on the fear that a formal arrest might lead him to stop disclosing information of the utmost relevance to public safety issues".

It also said the interviews in question were "far from being the only incriminating evidence".

This is from the BBC quoting from the ECHR today.

So, "justified" by "the utmost relevance to public safety" and:
"(Not) the only incriminating evidence"

But not in our case.

 

[Diocletus]

"It has been convincingly established that at the time of the impugned police interviews there was an exceptionally serious and imminent threat to public safety, and that this threat provided compelling reasons which justified the temporary delay of all four applicants' access to lawyers."

Abdulrahman had argued that he should have been arrested and offered access to a lawyer when he began incriminating himself in an interview as a witness.
The court said the decision not to arrest him at this stage was not unreasonable "based on the fear that a formal arrest might lead him to stop disclosing information of the utmost relevance to public safety issues".

It also said the interviews in question were "far from being the only incriminating evidence".

This is from the BBC quoting from the ECHR today.

So, "justified" by "the utmost relevance to public safety" and:
"(Not) the only incriminating evidence"

But not in our case.

The critical fact in this case seems to be that, after securing counsel, Adulrahman adopted his prior written statement, thus rendering it admissible--indeed, he relied on it in asserting his defense. Given this fact, I'm really not sure why the ECHR even accepted the application.

 

[Vibio]

The court said the decision not to arrest him at this stage was not unreasonable "based on the fear that a formal arrest might lead him to stop disclosing information of the utmost relevance to public safety issues".

It perfectly applies to this case too. The court will side with Italy.

 

[Kauffer]

It perfectly applies to this case too. The court will side with Italy.

Well of course it doesn't! That's silly.

But the key piece of case law is Salduz v Turkey:

"Even where compelling reasons may exceptionally justify denial of access to a lawyer, such a restriction, whatever its justification, must not unduly prejudice the rights of the accused under Article 6. The rights of the defence will in principle be irretrievably prejudiced when incriminating statements made during police interrogation without access to a lawyer are used for a conviction”.

Italy cannot overcome this.

 

[Vibio]

Salduz was a minor! Knox an adult. Also Knox continued to incriminate herself in her handwritten messages. The Saduz case has no, assolutely nothing, in common with AK and RS. Nothing.

 

[Welshman]

Vibio’s lie about Amanda being connected with drug dealers raises an important issue. In the past seven years since Meredith’s murder, the PGP have a long history of lying. The PGP use Amazon reviews and the comments sections of articles about the case to spread lies and misinformation. These are some examples :

Heiress Amazon review WTBH - "For starters was found cleaning the place with bleach when the police arrived". Truth: Amanda was not caught cleaning when the police arrived.

Bejamin Fletcher "BRFC are back" Amazon review WTBH - "They've found Meredith's blood on a knife in his apartment". Truth: There was no blood on Meredith's knife.

Christina comments page 7 Amazon review WTBH - "whose is the female fooprint who applied female sized bruises on MK's neck in strangulation" Truth: There were no female footprints in Meredith's room or female thumbprints on Meredith's neck.

JF Rodrigue Amazon review WTBH - " She was doing cartwheels in the police station." Truth: It has been proved Amanda did not do cartwheels.

Wendy Murphy in her blog - "pro Amanda forces forget to note the knife was found hidden in a shoebox far back inside a coset at Sollecitito's apartment and that the knife had been scrubbed with bleach." Truth:The knife was found in Raffaele's kitchen drawer and the knife had not been cleaned with bleach.

Barbara Nadeu in her trashy book Angel Face lied about the purchase of bleach receipts, mixed blood and Amanda being arrested for the noise violation rather than just receiving a ticket.

The website themurderofmeredithkercher.com was riddled with numerous falsehoods which are detailed here http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/guilter-wiki-myths-lies-distortions/ and http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/guilter-wiki-lies-myths-contd/. John Kercher’s book Meredith was full of falsehoods which is discussed here on IIP http://injusticeanywhereforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=85&t=1870&sid=e7240889d81e1ba97a5f37cccf2530c2

Machiavelli has often been caught lying on this forum.

PGP don’t just lie about the evidence but also lie about things which have happened outside the murders such Amanda carrying out a rape prank and Raffaele stabbing a girl with scissors.

One question I would like to ask the PGP on this board is this. If there was clear and overwhelming evidence for the guilt of Amanda and Raffaele, why is that all in the time since Meredith’s murder you have consistently been unable to argue the case for guilt without resorting to lying? Why do you have to resort to making things up if you have a mountain of genuine evidence to draw from? Is it not hypocritical to accuse Amanda and Raffaele of lying when you constantly lie yourselves?

 

[Numbers]

It perfectly applies to this case too. The court will side with Italy.

Read the judgment Ibrahim v UK carefully. It concerns a terrorist plot in which bombs were planted on public transportation vehicles, and subsequent "safety interviews" that the police conducted with the apprehended alleged terrorists, strictly to obtain information related to public safety, such as, for example, whether there were additional explosive devices, and, for the fourth applicant, the current location of one of the other terrorists.

 

[Diocletus]

Salduz was a minor! Knox an adult. Also Knox continued to incriminate herself in her handwritten messages. The Saduz case has no, assolutely nothing, in common with AK and RS. Nothing.

Here's what it appears the ECHr is going to be concerned with:

1. Did Knox have a fair opportunity to challenge the admission of the statements? Yes, and she won: the supreme court said that they couldn't be used.

2. Whether the other evidence in the case would have been sufficient to convict without the challenged statements: No, it wouldn't have been, because the whole callunnia case is premised on the challenged statements.

3. The "quality" of the evidence: It was crap. Not only is there an allegation of coercion backed up by the convicting court's own opinion, but the elicited statements were false/unreliable.

 

[Numbers]

The excerpt below is, IMO, the key to these cases claiming violation of ECHR Articles 6.3c with 6.1.

CASE OF IBRAHIM AND OTHERS v. THE UNITED KINGDOM 50541/08 50571/08 50573/08... 16/12/2014

196. In this respect, the general principles applied by the Court to questions of admissibility of evidence in criminal proceedings are relevant. As the Court has said on many occasions, admissibility of evidence is a matter for regulation by national law and the national courts and this Court’s only concern is to examine whether the proceedings have been conducted fairly (see Panovits v. Cyprus, no. 4268/04, § 81, 11 December 2008; Gäfgen, cited above, § 162, and references therein). In making this evaluation the Court looks at the proceedings as a whole, having regard to whether the rights of the defence have been respected (see, for example, Bykov v. Russia [GC], no. 4378/02, § 90, 10 March 2009; Gäfgen, cited above, § 164; Lutsenko v. Ukraine, no. 30663/04, § 42, 18 December 2008; and Aleksandr Zaichenko, cited above, § 57). Pre-trial statements obtained in the absence of procedural guarantees should be treated with caution (see Lutsenko, cited above, § 51; and Zaichenko, cited above, § 56). When deciding whether the admission of a statement made without legal assistance was compatible with Article 6, the Court will examine, in so far as relevant to the case before it:

(a) the general legislative framework applicable and any safeguards it contains (see, generally, John Murray, cited above, § 66; Salduz, cited above, § 56; and Yoldaş v. Turkey, no. 27503/04, § 50, 23 February 2010);

(b) the quality of the evidence, including whether the circumstances in which it was obtained cast doubt on its reliability or accuracy (see Panovits, cited above, § 82; Lutsenko, cited above, § 48; and Aleksandr Zaichenko, cited above, § 57); in this respect, improper conduct, notably coercion or ill‑treatment, during interrogation and vulnerability of suspects are relevant factors (see paragraph 192 above);

(c) whether the statement was promptly retracted and the admissions made in it consistently denied, particularly once legal advice had been obtained (see Lutsenko, cited above, § 51; Yoldaş, cited above, § 53; and Bandaletov, cited above, § 67);

(d) the procedural safeguards applied during the criminal proceedings, and in particular whether the applicant was given the opportunity of challenging the authenticity of the evidence and of opposing its use (see Panovits, cited above, § 82; Lutsenko, cited above, § 48; and Aleksandr Zaichenko, cited above, § 57);

(e) the strength of the other evidence in the case (see Salduz, cited above, § 57; Yoldaş, cited above, § 53; and Aleksandr Zaichenko, cited above, § 58-59).

 

[Bill Williams]

Not a national terrorist organization, but evidence may have led to the belief that she was part of part of a (more than local) drug ring. And one that murders.

Vibio’s lie about Amanda being connected with drug dealers raises an important issue. In the past seven years since Meredith’s murder, the PGP have a long history of lying. The PGP use Amazon reviews and the comments sections of articles about the case to spread lies and misinformation. These are some examples :

<.......... suspicious deletia ..........>

One question I would like to ask the PGP on this board is this. If there was clear and overwhelming evidence for the guilt of Amanda and Raffaele, why is that all in the time since Meredith’s murder you have consistently been unable to argue the case for guilt without resorting to lying? Why do you have to resort to making things up if you have a mountain of genuine evidence to draw from? Is it not hypocritical to accuse Amanda and Raffaele of lying when you constantly lie yourselves?

I'm not sure you can call Vibio's comment a "lie".

It's an embellishment off of the equally fanciful misinformation about Knox perhaps having the contact-number of a known drug dealer the contacts' list of her mobile.

All of us embellish, really. What I like here on this thread are the many people able to, "ask the next question."

This is about the fifth time we've been around the block on that issue which Vibio embellishes with the time honoured, pro-guilt lobby use of the proverbial, "may have."

The "next questions" on this are legion. One is: if this is so, why did not Mignini investigate this line, and/or raise it at trial?

Amanda has written about her encounter with Frederico on the train, which has led to one of the very first factoids I ran into three years ago. "Sex on a train," used to be used to buttress this "sex-game gone wrong" theory, because it was supposed to have shown Knox's predilection for unusual sexual acts.

Then we find out there was no such thing as "sex on a train", perhaps some soft-drug use and some sexual activity which is far, far, far from unusual for students abroad. (Activity in a far less unorthodox location!) Egads, if those two things resulted in murder and mayhem, college campuses all over the world would be war zones. Unless one thinks that college campuses are not rife with sexual experimentation......

But as an embellishment, it certainly is "fun" for the pro-guilt lobby to engage in it.

Point is (getting in touch with one's inner-CoulsdonUK): what does that have to do with any of the court decisions? The latest court decision, one to convict to boot, finds that the meme of Knox's alleged unusual sexual tastes and/or contacts with drug-rings leading to murder......

...... has played absolutely no role. From Satanic rites, to sex-games gone wrong, to disputes over pooh in the toilet, to disputes over rent-money, to the very weirdest motive of all: they just did it for no reason at all......

..... now there is another: but this time found nowhere in any court document at all - murder because of involvement in a drug ring. A drug ring which, it is alleged, murders.

Is this strictly speaking "lying"?

Not really - it is simply another day on the internet. Free speech reigns supreme here, and lack of accountability for what one says is the coin of the realm.

It's not lying. It's just what happens.