Continuation Part 11: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Machiavelli]

Preposterous speculation. Whom here, aside from your two sycophants, do you think cares about your "suspicion"? For which you, predictably, have no evidence.

And who should care about your suspicion or "belief" that Guede committed a post mortem sexual abuse?
There is no evidence about any of your contradictory speculations.

These streaks were caused by: 1) Ms. Kercher's own body, as Guede moved it so he could better violate it, and/or 2) the efforts with towels Guede admitted to have made, in reality so he could either a) rape the dying girl less messily, and/or b) in a stupidly hopeless, post-frenzy effort, attempt to staunch her blood and save himself from a murder rap.

Moved it from where? Since we know where she received the fatal stab.
But anyway, why should your speculations have any merit? Look how those elements are compatible with Knox and Sollecitos' guilt as well, and how in fact you admit that a post-delictum activity was performed, and then look at the contradictions of your scenario instead.

Yes, yes, for once you should be clear. There is no convincing evidence of Knox or Sollecito in the murder room. You must first place them there for it to make any sense whatsoever that they left traces of blood from their person in any clean-up effort, whatsoever.

Actually, I believe exactly the opposite: what is damning for Knox and Sollecito is the evidence of their subsequent presence in the house, and the evidence that the murderer(s) came back on the scene some time after the murder, washed themselves, performed an activity of altering the scene.
This is in fact what comes first and foremost in my mind. This is what evidence is from my perspective.

As evidenced by the torn material on the bra strap, Guede tore off the bra strap. This obviously caused the "crooked" metal.

Well not that "obvious", if you consider details like that you would need two hands to do torn the bra and anyway you would first try to open it starting from the clasp; and also that as a matter of facts, Sollecito's DNA was found on the metal hook (while Guede's was not).
There are also several other physical elements about the bra (like for example, that we know the locations in the room where Meredith was stabbed the first and the secodn time, we can see she had changed her position, we can see that the right shoulder of the bra was soaked with blood and not the left side even if the fatal wound was on the left, etc.)

 

[Machiavelli]

This, ladies and gentlemen, is Italian logic at its finest. Apparently Meredith's butt was so large as to cover the entire pillow. This would be hilarious if it wasn't so tragic.

Her body covered the bloody shoe prints, didn't it?

 

[js202]

There is no evidence about any of your contradictory speculations.

In fact, all of the evidence points to this. There are no contradictions to those who do not begin with an assumption of AK's and RS's involvement.

Moved it from where? Since we know where she received the fatal stab.

Yes, by evidence of the blood spray on the door, we know she received the fatal stab in front of the closet. This was an inconvenient place for Guede to rape her dying body, so he moved her. (And, btw, even someone as intellectually dishonest as you must admit a dying body maintains sufficient blood pressure to produce bruising.)

Actually, I believe exactly the opposite: what is damning for Knox and Sollecito is the evidence of their subsequent presence in the house, and the evidence that the murderer(s) came back on the scene some time after the murder, washed themselves, performed an activity of altering the scene.
This is in fact what comes first and foremost in my mind. This is what evidence is from my perspective.

This is a preposterous tautology. You believe AK and RS to be guilty, therefore they must have been present in the murder room in order to accumulate Ms. Kercher's blood on their persons!

 

[Wattson]

Her body covered the bloody shoe prints, didn't it?

I believe the semen stain was between her legs. Meredith was still alive (and consequently died) in that position as evidenced by the blood exasperated on to the under side of the quilt. There were small blood droplets on both her bra and bare breasts which tells us that her bra was removed after she was stabbed. The bra clasp was not cut off but torn off by Rudy. Which is why it was found underneath Meredith.

 

[Bill Williams]

You have evidence that Hellmann took bribes? In connection with the Kercher murder trial?

How can anyone have confidence in Italian justice when even you admit that corruption is rife?

There are also problems with the police:

"Informant J1 mentioned cases in which police officers were in good working relationships with people evading justice, or with people who were in the process of being arrested or investigated. ‘These officers, therefore, informed members of the criminal world that something was going to happen to them, giving them time to hide, destroy documents or find an alibi’. In such cases, J1 added, sub-cultural factors play an important role, as ‘the police officers may share a background of bullying, violence and criminality with the ones they are supposed to police’."

http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affair...between_organised_crime_and_corruption_en.pdf
Page 169

There are some things Machiavelli refuses to talk about. I needed to apologize to Machiavelli way, way up thread because I accused him of avoiding the subject - that he thought that the President of the Perugia Court of Appeal, Wladimiro De Nunzio, was a criminal.

Machiavelli kindly pointed me to the exact message (which I has missed, apparently) where he had done exactly that.

Machiavelli accused De Nunzio of orchestrating a "machiavellian back room move" to replace the "experienced" judge lined up for the 2011 appeals trial, with the "inexperienced" Hellmann.

Machiavelli has also said that he knows the exact amount in Euros it took for Judge Hellmann to subsequently overturn the Massei convictions - an amount mediated through the international Masonic conspiracy, and paid for by American media sources.

Then what do we find. We find that the judge who Hellmann replaced, said he could have done the 2011 trial, except he chose to take a position with a juvenile court. In an interview, this judge said there was nothing out of the ordinary about this.

And..... both he and Hellmann were originally civil court judges; so there went one Machiavelli-factoid that Hellmann had replaced an experienced criminal judge.

The one thing about the on-line pro-guilt lobby is that they like playing both sides of this fence. At one point criticizing outsiders for pointing out potential corruption/politics in the Italian courts - then they point it out from their own perspective.....

 

[Machiavelli]

In fact, all of the evidence points to this. There are no contradictions to those who do not begin with an assumption of AK's and RS's involvement.

Of course ... everything runs as softly as olive oil.... I suppose you don't see contradictions not even in what Knox tells then...

Yes, by evidence of the blood spray on the door, we know she received the fatal stab in front of the closet. This was an inconvenient place for Guede to rape her dying body, so he moved her. (And, btw, even someone as intellectually dishonest as you must admit a dying body maintains sufficient blood pressure to produce bruising.)

Actually she received her fatal stab in a spot left from the closet. But your second statement is just false, and anyway, unreasonable.
Bruises indicate normal blood pressure. Especially superficial bruises like those ones, that even have a reddish or lively pink colour. It is an elementary fact.
A person who is dying of a fatal blood loss is in a state of hypovolemic shock, that means foremost a dead fall of peripheral blood pressure. If the central pressure drops quickly, the body reacts by dramatically cutting off the peripheral blood circulation. Then if the person starts to suffer a hypoxia, as unfortunate Meredith had, blood in vessels won't be of bright red colour any longer and any possible bruises would look violet, especially if in superficial areas (where you would also detect cianosis).
But anyway, after the fatal stabbing there wouldn't be enough time for Guede to wash his hands (and feet, or trousers) accurately (he had bloody hands, but left no hand print on the body) and then come back into the room, grab her with clean hands without leaving any prints on her body, undress her, place the pillow beneath her: you need minutes to do that, and this Meredith still having a blood pressure with a blood loss of that magnitude?
All this is improbable and concocted by definition.

This is a preposterous tautology. You believe AK and RS to be guilty, therefore they must have been present in the murder room in order to accumulate Ms. Kercher's blood on their persons!

Actually, I am based on the evidence. Not on prejudicial assumptions.

 

[Wattson]

Summary of Anna Aprile's Testimony

Medical expert assigned to assess if Meredith Kercher was sexually assaulted.
Meredith Kercher was sexually active shortly before she died.
Swabs taken from the vagina and anus were negative for the presence of sperm but the DNA of Rudy Guede was discovered on one of the swabs from the vagina.
The lack of sperm suggests that DNA was from saliva, epithelial cells from the hand, or penile penetration without ejaculation.
Sexual activity exerted on a women against her will in the majority of cases does not give rise to any specific injury on the genitals.
Meredith had what appeared to be a discoloration of the vaginal wall at seven and five o'clock in the photographs. When the tissue was examined the discolouration was no longer visible because the tissue had been immersed in formalin and taken on a uniform greyish color.
A 4 micron sample was taken and a lack of red blood cells indicated that the discolouration was not bruising.
Carlo Dalla Vedova for Amanda Knox asked if the presence of a pillow positioned to facilitate sexual activity was a sign of consent. Aprile responded by taking offense to the question explaining that a scenario where a girl at the threat of a knife is forced to strip down and position the pillow is certainly possible and that these types of questions are not of a medical nature to which she was asked to consult.
Judge Massei asked about the bruising on Meredith's thighs and lower limbs. Aprile responded that bruising of the thighs is often found when sexual activity that is exercised against the girl's will. In addition busing such as Meredith had around the mouth is also common as rapists attempt to prevent the victim from screaming.
Judge Massei asked about the cutting of the bra. Aprile responded that she was not asked to look at the clothing so could only answer in the general sense. In the general sense in acts of sexual violence the garments are often torn.

 

[Machiavelli]

(...)

Then what do we find. We find that the judge who Hellmann replaced, said he could have done the 2011 trial, except he chose to take a position with a juvenile court. In an interview, this judge said there was nothing out of the ordinary about this.

Sergio Matteini Chiari and Wladimiro De Nunzio were in competition for the same post.
However - and this, what I am saying, is the true story - Matteini Chiari was still the judge assigned to the Kercher trial and he did ask De Nunzio to remain working at the Kercher trial, he was entitled to do so even without asking if only the session for his hearing at the CSM in Rome was not scheduled on the same date when the beginning of the Kercher appeal was scheduled. He wanted to keep the work at the Kercher trial, where he had been appointed, and he could well do that even while he was concurring for the post at the juvenile court in Rome. But De Nunzio prevented him from keeping the Kercher trial, thanks to his directive role, by overlapping the date of the first trial session with the date for his Rome hearing session.

And..... both he and Hellmann were originally civil court judges; so there went one Machiavelli-factoid that Hellmann had replaced an experienced criminal judge.

The facts stands still and entirely: Pratillo Hellmann had no experience of criminal trials of any significance, and never had a career as a criminal judge. This is in striking contrast with Matteini Chiari, who instead had a very high profile career as a criminal Magistrate. Matteini Chiari was the prosecutor who brought Giulio Andreotti to trial and managed to have him convicted, Coppi and Giulia Bongiorno were his adversaries. There is a historic antagonism between Bongiorno and Matteini Chiari.

 

[Wattson]

Summary of Anna Aprile's Testimony

- Medical expert assigned to assess if Meredith Kercher was sexually assaulted.
- Meredith Kercher was sexually active shortly before she died.
- Swabs taken from the vagina and anus were negative for the presence of sperm but the DNA of Rudy Guede was discovered on one of the swabs from the vagina.
- The lack of sperm suggests that DNA was from saliva, epithelial cells from the hand, or penile penetration without ejaculation.
- Sexual activity exerted on a women against her will in the majority of cases does not give rise to any specific injury on the genitals.
- Meredith had what appeared to be a discoloration of the vaginal wall at seven and five o'clock in the photographs. When the tissue was examined the discolouration was no longer visible because the tissue had been immersed in formalin and taken on a uniform greyish color.
- A 4 micron sample was taken and a lack of red blood cells indicated that the discolouration was not bruising.
- Carlo Dalla Vedova for Amanda Knox asked if the presence of a pillow positioned to facilitate sexual activity was a sign of consent. Aprile responded by taking offense to the question explaining that a scenario where a girl at the threat of a knife is forced to strip down and position the pillow is certainly possible and that these types of questions are not of a medical nature to which she was asked to consult.
- Judge Massei asked about the bruising on Meredith's thighs and lower limbs. Aprile responded that bruising of the thighs is often found when sexual activity that is exercised against the girl's will. In addition busing such as - Meredith had around the mouth is also common as rapists attempt to prevent the victim from screaming.
- Judge Massei asked about the cutting of the bra. Aprile responded that she was not asked to look at the clothing so could only answer in the general sense. In the general sense in acts of sexual violence the garments are often torn.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

No no, we should be clear: the luminol prints and the diluted blood prints on the bathmat are not the result of the murder and they are not evidence of it; they are evidence of the subsequent cleaning activity the consequence and they are the consequence of it. It's because they had a shower or washed themselves, after they came back in the house, that they picked up water containing blood.

Explain this in more detail. The luminol results included three bare footprints in the corridor - one outside the door to Meredith's room, with the toes oriented toward the doorway, and two outside the door to Amanda's room, side by side, with toes oriented toward the kitchen/common area.

All these prints appear to be right feet. All were swabbed and tested at the lab. All tested negative with TMB, and none revealed any trace of human DNA.

A fourth bare footprint, together with two partial prints, was found in Amanda's room. These traces also tested negative with TMB, but the swabs revealed Amanda's DNA.

Take us through the evidence proving that these footprints were made with Meredith' blood in the course of cleaning activity after the murder.

 

[Bill Williams]

Sergio Matteini Chiari and Wladimiro De Nunzio were in competition for the same post.
However - and this, what I am saying, is the true story - Matteini Chiari was still the judge assigned to the Kercher trial and he did ask De Nunzio to remain working at the Kercher trial, he was entitled to do so even without asking if only the session for his hearing at the CSM in Rome was not scheduled on the same date when the beginning of the Kercher appeal was scheduled. He wanted to keep the work at the Kercher trial, where he had been appointed, and he could well do that even while he was concurring for the post at the juvenile court in Rome. But De Nunzio prevented him from keeping the Kercher trial, thanks to his directive role, by overlapping the date of the first trial session with the date for his Rome hearing session.


The facts stands still and entirely: Pratillo Hellmann had no experience of criminal trials of any significance, and never had a career as a criminal judge. This is in striking contrast with Matteini Chiari, who instead had a very high profile career as a criminal Magistrate. Matteini Chiari was the prosecutor who brought Giulio Andreotti to trial and managed to have him convicted, Coppi and Giulia Bongiorno were his adversaries. There is a historic antagonism between Bongiorno and Matteini Chiari.

Thank you for the explanation.

But is the highlighted part a crime?

What about the amount in Euros you once claimed you knew it took to get Hellmann to pervert justice? Are you still claiming a Masonic conspiracy?

 

[Bill Williams]

Today is the fifth anniversary of the 2009 conviction of Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox at the Massei trial in Perugia.

Of this, CNN reporter Barbie Latza Nadeau said that night - "The case against them was weak, but their defence was weaker. This could very well be overturned at appeal."

Lots of water under the bridge since. I'm still waiting for Machiavelli to provide a timeline for something as simple at the Nov 5/6 interrogation. What happened and when did it happen at the interrogation?

 

[Machiavelli]

(...)
- Meredith had what appeared to be a discoloration of the vaginal wall at seven and five o'clock in the photographs. When the tissue was examined the discolouration was no longer visible because the tissue had been immersed in formalin and taken on a uniform greyish color.

As a consequence of the conservation in a chemical liquid, the anatomical part (skin piece) was discoloured and thus it was no longer possible to see the exact location of the small bruises.

- A 4 micron sample was taken and a lack of red blood cells indicated that the discolouration was not bruising.

Note: a red cell is almost 8 micron wide.

Aprile's conclusion: bruises are visible in the photography, but she couldn't detect them by histological analysis. She concludes that maybe her samples only located the perihperal areas of the ecchymosis, or failed to locate the ecchymosis (the ecchymosys was not in that location).


The relevant snippet is the following:

Allora, preciso, la fotografia dei genitali consente di evidenziare in corrispondenza dell'introito vaginale delle piccole ecchimosi, delle piccole soffusioni ecchimotiche. Quando noi abbiamo esaminato il preparato anatomico questa differenza di colore tra il tessuto sano e quello alterato, chiamiamolo così discromico, evidente nella fotografia, questa differenza non si vedeva più perché, essendo il preparato immerso in formalina aveva preso un colore uniforme grigiastro indistinguibile. Cosa abbiamo fatto allora? Abbiamo fatto dei prelievi in corrispondenza del tessuto in quella zona che ci sembrava interessata dalla lesione rispetto al confronto fotografico. In quel prelievo istologico noi abbiamo trovato un tessuto che documentava la presenza di strutture capillari replete di globuli rossi, ma non fuoriuscita di globuli rossi dai vasi. Che cosa significa? Che quella istologia non era un'istologia diagnostica per ecchimosi, perché l'ecchimosi implica che ci sia uno stravaso di globuli rossi dai vasi; i globuli rossi invece erano ancora repleti, contenuti all'interno dei vasi. Allora, dal punto di vista istologico, quel dato documentava il fatto che il prelievo poteva essere stato fatto o alla periferia di quella piccola lesione ecchimotica... tenete presente che una fettina istologica sono 4 micron, per cui, ne abbiamo fatti, allestiti, una decina di preparati. Questo fatto di non intravedere la... stravaso ematico dei vasi poteva essere o la periferia della lesione o semplicemente indicativa che in quella zona non vi era l'ecchimosi

 

[js202]

- Meredith Kercher was sexually active shortly before she died.
- Sexual activity exerted on a women against her will in the majority of cases does not give rise to any specific injury on the genitals.

Excellent points, well taken. Somewhat aggressive sex with her boyfriend could have led to the bruising Machiavelli is conveniently attributing to the sexual violation during the events surrounding Ms. Kercher's death.

 

[Wattson]

As a consequence of the conservation in a chemical liquid, the anatomical part (skin piece) was discoloured and thus it was no longer possible to see the exact location of the small bruises.



Note: a red cell is almost 8 micron wide.

Aprile's conclusion: bruises are visible in the photography, but she couldn't detect them by histological analysis. She concludes that maybe her samples only located the perihperal areas of the ecchymosis, or failed to locate the ecchymosis (the ecchymosyswas not in that location).

The relevant snippet is the following:

Or maybe there wasn't any bruising?

 

[Machiavelli]

Thank you for the explanation.

But is the highlighted part a crime?

No. Here I am talking about known facts.

But you can't compare Matteini Chiari with Pratillo Hellmann, especially as for their career in the criminal justice.
Matteini Chiari has now the title of Supreme Court Judge. He had been the chief executive of the Prosecution General office and of the Appeals Court of Perugia. He was chosen by the CSM as one of the executives to direct the National School for Legal training of Magistrates. He had been working as criminal prosecutor from 1996 to 2003. He had been a President of a section of the court system (the juvenile) from 2010 to 2011, and then, by the time when he could lead the Kercher case, he actually left that post (which he didn't like so much, I guess).
But the comparison with Pratillo Hellmann is devastating: Pratillo Hellmann never get out from the tiny venue of Spoleto. He actually did not even manage to work in Perugia. He was a Mr. Nobody.

What about the amount in Euros you once claimed you knew it took to get Hellmann to pervert justice? Are you still claiming a Masonic conspiracy?

I will not answer this kind of questions, you perfectly know.

 

[Machiavelli]

Or maybe there wasn't any bruising?

What Aprile says, is:
1. There are ecchymosys visible in the picture.
2. She never utters the statement "maybe there was no ecchymosis"
3. The statement: "(....) che in quella zona non vi era l'ecchimosi", means: "maybe .... the ecchymosis was not in that area".
The use of the definite article "l'" (l'ecchimosi) in this statement normally would be translated as implying that in fact an ecchimosis exists. (I listen to Vibio's opinion anyway)

 

[Machiavelli]

Explain this in more detail. The luminol results included three bare footprints in the corridor - one outside the door to Meredith's room, with the toes oriented toward the doorway, and two outside the door to Amanda's room, side by side, with toes oriented toward the kitchen/common area.

All these prints appear to be right feet. All were swabbed and tested at the lab. All tested negative with TMB, and none revealed any trace of human DNA.

But don't forget the partial luminol shoeprint, which has a part of it still visible. This was one of Guede's shoeprints, is located close to Mederith's door, and the deleted part is the one on the side towards the door. This print yields mixed DNA from Amanda and Meredith.

A fourth bare footprint, together with two partial prints, was found in Amanda's room. These traces also tested negative with TMB, but the swabs revealed Amanda's DNA.

We should also point out that the shape of two of those prints revealed a set of compatibilities with Amanda Knox ("probable identity") and one of the two prints pointing towards the Kitchen (actually, towards Romanelli's room) had a larger size, belonged to another individual and revealed a shape indicating a probable identity with Sollecito.
Don't forget that another double-DNA luminol stain was found in Romanelli's room.

Take us through the evidence proving that these footprints were made with Meredith' blood in the course of cleaning activity after the murder.

I think soon or later I will rather describe my reasoning about the information contained in those prints, showing how it points to a cleaning. I will set my reasoning based on the analysis of the information contained in the set of prints, I will start from defining sets of information, rather than starting from the description of a specific sequence of events.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

I think soon or later I will rather describe my reasoning about the information contained in those prints, showing how it points to a cleaning. I will set my reasoning based on the analysis of the information contained in the set of prints, I will start from defining sets of information, rather than starting from the description of a specific sequence of events.

Oh for Christ sake. After asking you for weeks to explain your theory, and being ignored for weeks, this is what I finally get back. I guess it's as close as I could hope to an admission that you are stumped by the problem you have created for yourself. But really... you are an intelligent, educated man. I have no idea how old you are, but I assume you are well into adulthood. Do you not feel the least bit embarrassed to be writing this kind of gibberish?

 

[anglolawyer]

Oh for Christ sake. After asking you for weeks to explain your theory, and being ignored for weeks, this is what I finally get back. I guess it's as close as I could hope to an admission that you are stumped by the problem you have created for yourself. But really... you are an intelligent, educated man. I have no idea how old you are, but I assume you are well into adulthood. Do you not feel the least bit embarrassed to be writing this kind of gibberish?

Charlie

I have been following your efforts to pin Machiavelli down but not attending closely enough to be sure of the problem you have set him, or he has set himself. I have a highly imperfect acquaintance with the pattern of shoe/footprints too, having assigned that, along with many other things, to the file marked 'other guys know about this'. Would you please briefly explain the poser? I have no doubt at all that Machiavelli gets it completely but I, and perhaps others, could use a recap so that I/we can take my/our place in the chorus calling for an answer.

Machiavelli

Question for you: do you know whether any knives were seized from Lumumba's apartment or from Le Chic on 6th November 2007 or subsequently? Also, was the apartment sealed off immediately upon his arrest?