Continuation Part 11: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Desert Fox]

Oh dear. Well it's always good for laughs around here.

The fact is foreigners make up more than 25% of the US prison population.
With all those privatized prisons, beds must be filled....

http://www.salon.com/2013/09/23/6_shocking_revelations_about_how_private_prisons_make_money_partner/

Oh and an even bigger laugh was the talk about Knox being hit and how that's going to really pee them off over at the ECHR.

I guess Knoxer's own lawyer should have keep his mouth shut when he spilled the beans telling reporters that she was never hit. I mean, it really doesn't help the cause.

And anyway: according to the ECHR, Knoxer has to show that she's persued this issue first in Italy...soooo would someone please post her formal complaint about police brutality?

Are those not most Mexican? As an American, I actually only sort of consider Mexicans and Canadians to be foreigners.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Twin Sons of Different Mothers

Here is a bit more on Gary Leiterman and DNA contamination. CBS News reported that, “Lab supervisor Jeffrey Nye says he retraced every step and he does not believe there is any issue of contamination. ‘No issue whatsoever,’ he says.” Nye sounds a good bit like Renato Biondo. Nye should have checked the negative controls.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

percentage of foreign prisoners

A bit of quick googling suggests that the percentage of foreign prisoners in the United States is about 7%, whereas in Italy it is roughly 35%. Maybe someone else can find better numbers.

 

[carbonjam72]

Name Your Judge, pick an issue, then compare their opinion to Hellman.

Oh dear. Well it's always good for laughs around here.

The fact is foreigners make up more than 25% of the US prison population.

With all those privatized prisons, beds must be filled....

http://www.salon.com/2013/09/23/6_shocking_revelations_about_how_private_prisons_make_money_partner/

Oh and an even bigger laugh was the talk about Knox being hit and how that's going to really pee them off over at the ECHR.

I guess Knoxer's own lawyer should have keep his mouth shut when he spilled the beans telling reporters that she was never hit. I mean, it really doesn't help the cause.

And anyway: according to the ECHR, Knoxer has to show that she's persued this issue first in Italy...soooo would someone please post her formal complaint about police brutality?

Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
Coulsdon, why do you bother saying the same thing over and over again? I get it. I'm sure we all get it. We are wasting our time here and deluding ourselves into believing we matter. Fine. Just turn that into your signature and save yourself the trouble of repeatedly typing it.

CoulsdonUK: I am repetitive.

That describes the entire thread and everyone currently posting on it.

Hey CoulsdonUK, Vibio, Tsig, Mach, and other ladies/gentlemen of the pro-guilt persuasion;

I had asked a few pages back if any of you would care to choose an issue in regard to evidence, and then compare the way it was handled by Hellman, as opposed to the judge of your choice.

Since none of the convicting judges or prosecutors have ever agreed on motive, and there may be other 'rotating points of view', please feel free to compare Hellman's view with the judge of your choice; Massei, Nencini, the ISC reversing Hellman (I forget his name, but that judge is a prominent proponent of 9-11 conspiracy theories).

This would allow you to win over converts from the ranks of the skeptical, who see nothing but a corrupt tragic farce in this case.

The murderer Rudy Guede has been convicted and is serving his sentence. No need on this end to further torment two innocent people and their families, and steal their family savings - no matter how great the Kerchers' grief.

Perhaps you feel differently. Please, lets see what you think is so unreasonable about Hellman, or believe that wacky corrupt CT judge from the ISC actually got right in reversing Hellman.

Any takers?

 

[Desert Fox]

A bit of quick googling suggests that the percentage of foreign prisoners in the United States is about 7%, whereas in Italy it is roughly 35%. Maybe someone else can find better numbers.

I am not arguing that foreigners should not be prosecuted and convicted if they commit a crime. If I thought Amanda was guilty, 25 years would be a fairly lenient sentence.

My argument is specifically that with a foreign student, the state would likely want to make sure that they have all their ducks in a row before prosecuting.

 

[Vibio]

One thing I note is that in US courts, they usually treat foreign defendants with kid gloves. There is concern with prejudice which few courts would like to be accused of. If Amanda was an Italian going to school in the US, they would be really cautious prosecution her. In the US, we like to prosecute our own actually.

From the BBC:

"In total, foreigners make up more than 25% of the US prison population."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13201212

From the NYTimes:

"Non-citizen criminals represent a significant percentage of American prisoners: in 2009, some 25 percent of federal prisoners and a smaller fraction of state prisoners were non-citizens"

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/07/opinion/07Schuck.html?_r=0

(% of foriegn prisoners in European jails is high for most all countries here but overall prison rates are of corse only a fraction of what they are in the US with it's draconian justice system)

 

[Vibio]

However, on becoming aware of Ms Knox's contention that she was assaulted, it was incumbent on the Italians to launch an investigation.

No. A formal complaint about a physical assault must be filed.

And besides: her own lawyer claims she was not hit.

 

[Kauffer]

No. A formal complaint about a physical assault must be filed.

And besides: her own lawyer claims she was not hit.

If you think you are right on point 1 then cite me the source from Italian CCP.
As for your second point, her lawyer made no such claim. You say you are an Italian speaker, well go and examine the language he used.

 

[Bill Williams]

No. A formal complaint about a physical assault must be filed.

And besides: her own lawyer claims she was not hit.

Was he a witness?

Besides, the precedent had been set. Mignini was simply going to charge anyone who claimed such with defamation. Even Knox's parents - but curiously neither the newspaper in which the allegation appeared, not even the reporter (John Follain) who wrote the story.

Follain and The Telegraph are incredibly lucky people. Boy, did they ever dodge a bullet.

 

[carbonjam72]

Was he a witness?

Besides, the precedent had been set. Mignini was simply going to charge anyone who claimed such with defamation. Even Knox's parents - but curiously neither the newspaper in which the allegation appeared, not even the reporter (John Follain) who wrote the story.

Follain and The Telegraph are incredibly lucky people. Boy, did they ever dodge a bullet.

Might be wrong, but I think Vibio is referring to one of Amanda's lawyers, (I forget his name, Ghirga?), who said that Amanda did not say she was hit in her interrogations, he did not say it didn't happen.

The obvious reason here is anyone who says it happened would be charged with a crime by Mignini, so what else could the lawyer say that would help his client?

But leave it to Vibio to misquote, out of context, and claim to have made a point. What dazzling artistry.

Vibio, Judge Hellman is calling out to you. He wants to know why you think his acquittal wasn't correct in every way (except the calumnia conviction). Vibio? Vibio? ...

 

[Numbers]

From the BBC:

"In total, foreigners make up more than 25% of the US prison population."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13201212

From the NYTimes:

"Non-citizen criminals represent a significant percentage of American prisoners: in 2009, some 25 percent of federal prisoners and a smaller fraction of state prisoners were non-citizens" http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/07/opinion/07Schuck.html?_r=0

(% of foriegn prisoners in European jails is high for most all countries here but overall prison rates are of corse only a fraction of what they are in the US with it's draconian justice system)

The reason that 25% of the US FEDERAL prisons were non-citizens is largely because there are many persons who cross the US borders (especially from Mexico, or through Mexico from farther south) who are undocumented ("illegal"). There were an estimated 11 million undocumented aliens in the US in 2008.* Some of the persons who are aliens are apprehended and convicted of violations of the immigration laws, or sometimes of drug trafficking laws (there is a large illegal traffic of drugs into the US across the Mexican border).
*Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States

If one were to read beyond the first 1 or 2 paragraphs of the BBC article you reference, one would read:

"Most of the prisoners were convicted for immigration offences (65%), followed by drug-related crimes and drug trafficking."

Note that immigration offenses are only the responsibility of the Federal government to prosecute and to imprison those convicted. Many drug-related offenses, including especially trafficking across the US border, are also Federal offenses. Thus the foreigners who are convicted of such crimes are in Federal prison. Since many other crimes (murder, rape, robbery, etc. unless specifically on Federal land, against Federal institutions, or committed across state lines) are prosecuted at the state level, the Federal prison population is disproportionately composed of foreigners.

In 2013, the Federal government deported 240,000 non-criminal and 198,000 criminally-convicted undocumented aliens.
Source: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...ions-of-immigrants-reach-record-high-in-2013/

In contrast to Italy, where, IIUC, no immigrant can ever become a citizen, the US admits over 1,000,000 legal permanent resident aliens each year since 2005, and generally over 500,000 to about 1,000,000 in many years prior to 2005. Many of these aliens choose to become and are welcome as citizens.
ETA2: Source: http://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/ois_yb_2012.pdf


As you are probably aware, the entire US population, with the exception of American Indians, are descendants of relatively recent immigrants.

ETA: The American Indians, the Aleuts, Inuit ("Eskimo"), and Hawaiian Islanders are indigenous peoples of the US.

 

[Numbers]

No. A formal complaint about a physical assault must be filed.
And besides: her own lawyer claims she was not hit.

1. Red herring. You are using this issue to distract from the critical issue that Amanda Knox was not provided with a lawyer, nor was she told of her right to remain silent, while under interrogation by teams of police overnight on Nov. 5 and 6, 2007. The slapping and other abuse were elements of the coercion accompanying this fundamental violation of the European Convention of Human Rights, Article 6.3c and thus leading to a violation of Article 6.1 (denial of fair trial).

2. Her lawyer's statement is irrelevant. He was not a witness; he was not there (see number 1 above).

 

[RWVBWL]

Greetings,
Some of you folks should have a read at Websleuths, for it was started on Nov. 6, 2007.
Well before The JREF Thread, PMF, and IIP...

There is much info in there,
and some of the links to early newspaper articles still work, like an Italian one I clicked yesterday.


Here is a link:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...itish-student-murdered-in-Perugia-3-suspects&


Heck, some of you folks might recall me harping about that blonde hair found in Meredith's left upraised hand, right?

Here's a post from Websleuths, where it is 1st being mentioned, dated Nov, 13, 2007:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1770
"Italian forensic experts are testing strands of bloodied hair found in Meredith Kercher's hand, according to reports in the Italian press.


Respected Italian daily newspaper La Stampa has reported that laboratory tests are currently underway on strands of hair found in Meredith's left hand with the hope that they may belong to her killer. "We know that Meredith Kercher, on that evening of November 1, fought back and tried to defend herself," the paper said. "

The suspects in this crime are all claiming innocence at this point. There is a bit more on comments from RS in this mornings article..nothing of any great consquence though.
* * *

Too bad I can not get these English newspaper links to work, I'd like to read more.

And too bad those hairs were lost,
I bet they were not fibers, nor did they belong to Amanda or Raff.
I'll still keep my theory open, thank you very much Kaufer, CarbonJam72 and others, that this clue, and many others point to someone else being involved that ILE did not wanna publicly ID...
RW

 

[Numbers]

Greetings,
Some of you folks should have a read at Websleuths, for it was started on Nov. 6, 2007.
Well before The JREF Thread, PMF, and IIP...

There is much info in there,
and some of the links to early newspaper articles still work, like an Italian one I clicked yesterday.


Here is a link:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...itish-student-murdered-in-Perugia-3-suspects&


Heck, some of you folks might recall me harping about that blonde hair found in Meredith's left upraised hand, right?

Here's a post from Websleuths, where it is 1st being mentioned, dated Nov, 13, 2007:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1770
"Italian forensic experts are testing strands of bloodied hair found in Meredith Kercher's hand, according to reports in the Italian press.


Respected Italian daily newspaper La Stampa has reported that laboratory tests are currently underway on strands of hair found in Meredith's left hand with the hope that they may belong to her killer. "We know that Meredith Kercher, on that evening of November 1, fought back and tried to defend herself," the paper said. "

The suspects in this crime are all claiming innocence at this point. There is a bit more on comments from RS in this mornings article..nothing of any great consquence though.
* * *

Too bad I can not get these English newspaper links to work, I'd like to read more.

And too bad those hairs were lost, I bet they were not fibers, nor did they belong to Amanda or Raff.
I'll still keep my theory open, thank you very much Kaufer, CarbonJam72 and others, that this clue, and many others point to someone else being involved that ILE did not wanna publicly ID...
RW

Because the forensic police "lost" the hair, and apparently never actually reported what if anything they had found (ETA that is believable), how can this mystery be resolved?

Another point...we all state that only Guede's DNA, footprints, putative semen deposit (claimed by police not to have been tested), etc. were found in the murder room. But how do we know that? It's information from the police, who really were only interested in evidence against Amanda and Raffaele - which they did not find in the murder room or anywhere in the cottage. So if the police had found evidence against someone besides Guede, and that someone was neither Amanda nor Raffaele, would they make that information public? I would guess they would not.

Good luck on your search for answers on the "lost"-by-the-police evidence.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

foreign prison population in the U.S.

Foreign prisoners (percentage of prison population) 6.8%
(of state and federal prisoners only, 31.12.2011) link
5.9% link2

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

A bit of quick googling suggests that the percentage of foreign prisoners in the United States is about 7%, whereas in Italy it is roughly 35%. Maybe someone else can find better numbers.

A lot more of Italy is close to a border with another country than the USA, and people have a fair bit of freedom to move around the EU. While I wouldn't rule out the possibility that the Italian system over-convicts foreigners there seem to be obvious alternative hypotheses to explain the data.

 

[Desert Fox]

No. A formal complaint about a physical assault must be filed.

And besides: her own lawyer claims she was not hit.

From an outsider's point of view, Amanda appears to have been charged with the equivalent of slander for stating that she was stuck.

Working off that position, it seems pretty logical that one does not make any additional accusations so that it does not become worse.

 

[carbonjam72]

Greetings,
Some of you folks should have a read at Websleuths, for it was started on Nov. 6, 2007.
Well before The JREF Thread, PMF, and IIP...

There is much info in there,
and some of the links to early newspaper articles still work, like an Italian one I clicked yesterday.


Here is a link:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...itish-student-murdered-in-Perugia-3-suspects&


Heck, some of you folks might recall me harping about that blonde hair found in Meredith's left upraised hand, right?

Here's a post from Websleuths, where it is 1st being mentioned, dated Nov, 13, 2007:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1770
"Italian forensic experts are testing strands of bloodied hair found in Meredith Kercher's hand, according to reports in the Italian press.


Respected Italian daily newspaper La Stampa has reported that laboratory tests are currently underway on strands of hair found in Meredith's left hand with the hope that they may belong to her killer. "We know that Meredith Kercher, on that evening of November 1, fought back and tried to defend herself," the paper said. "

The suspects in this crime are all claiming innocence at this point. There is a bit more on comments from RS in this mornings article..nothing of any great consquence though.
* * *

Too bad I can not get these English newspaper links to work, I'd like to read more.

And too bad those hairs were lost,
I bet they were not fibers, nor did they belong to Amanda or Raff.
I'll still keep my theory open, thank you very much Kaufer, CarbonJam72 and others, that this clue, and many others point to someone else being involved that ILE did not wanna publicly ID...RW

Could it also be Meredith's hair? Wasn't there a picture of her where she had brown highlights?

Thanks for the link to web sleuths though, I wasn't aware of them.

RBWL, please acknowledge that one set of foot prints in Meredith's blood, Rudy foot prints, means only Rudy was in the room when Meredith's blood was wet. And, that Rudy stepping into his own sperm when it was wet means Rudy got off while Meredith was bleeding out.

Also, please make it clear what you are suggesting in regard to the unattributed fingerprints. Are they unattributed because they are unreadable? O are they unattributed because though they are clear enough to read, they do not match any of the known people?

Are you suggesting Koko was involved as a lookout for example, but did not enter the cottage? I mean what is your theory of a second person, and what evidence do you believe supports your beliefs?

And keep on Surfin', for the rest of us.

 

[Numbers]

A lot more of Italy is close to a border with another country than the USA, and people have a fair bit of freedom to move around the EU. While I wouldn't rule out the possibility that the Italian system over-convicts foreigners there seem to be obvious alternative hypotheses to explain the data.

My hypothesis is that the vast majority of Italians have a lawyer on retainer, just in case. Foreigners in Italy don't know that is an informal requirement for an enjoyable non-prison stay in the country.

I'm sure there are many more hypotheses, but scientific testing will weed out those unsupported by evidence.

 

[Desert Fox]

Foreign prisoners (percentage of prison population) 6.8%
(of state and federal prisoners only, 31.12.2011) link
5.9% link2

The funny thing is that there is plenty to criticize about the US prison and legal system. The problem is that just because the legal system of the US has problems does not mean we cannot criticize others.