The Electric Comet theory

[Reality Check]

Here are two mathematical proofs that black holes don't exist ...
...snipped...
Stephen Crothers Destroys the Quackademic "Black Hole" & Relativity

Oh dear, Haig - the idiocy of thinking a video by the crank Stephen Crothers is a mathematical proof !

The preprint is interesting:
Back-reaction of the Hawking radiation flux on a gravitationally collapsing star II: Fireworks instead of firewalls
with the minor issue that the 5 September 2014 preprint has still not been published. It is not strictly speaking a mathematic proof since it solves the system of the evolution equations numerically.
The big problem is that the physical evidence for black holes is very strong.

Evidence is KING[/B}, mathematics is QUEEEN - both of which are missing for the electric comet idea !

 

[Sol88]

You could try the Ignore List and see how that works for you. Or maybe you could help out sol88 and haig by answering some of his list of unanswered questions. That would be helpful for all of us.

I'd like to discuss just one piece of evidence if we can?

Yeah, that'd be awesome David, perhaps you can, since Tusenfem has trouble recalling, tell me about the OSIRIS image's targeting of the "jet" locations on 67P?

I'm sure they bracket the shots, so send the stack thru and we'll do some citizen science, looking at "bunnies" type science and we'll all have chinwag at the OSIRIS photos.

Just a start to move forward me thinks

 

[Haig]

The better question is what makes you think that this is a "true color" image, Haig ?
No mention of "true color" . Or for that matter a "first" image

It's in the link below RC ... 1st_true_colour_image_of_comet_67p_emerges

It's an unofficial leak?

At the conference they will reveal their startling discoveries about this colourful landscape and what the colours reveal.

http://www.reddit.com/r/space/comments/2nvagm/1st_true_colour_image_of_comet_67p_emerges/

Mmm it really does look like a chunk of Mars, wonder what they will say at the conference

MEASURING COMET 67P/C-G

The table below summarises the approximate dimensions of 67P/C-G and other known parameters derived from observations made by Rosetta, with the instrument with which the measurement was made also indicated. Links are provided to earlier posts where some of these numbers have been previously presented.

Again, these values are preliminary and will likely change as the mission progresses and more data are available, and as the comet itself changes as it moves closer to the Sun. Similarly, other parameters such as the albedo of the comet will be added to this table, as they are made available by the instrument science teams.

Concerns over ESA’s Data Release Policy Amidst Rosetta Comet Landing

Unfortunately for millions of space enthusiasts around the world, none of these exciting images were released to the public. In addition, much of the images taken of the comet over the past few months as Rosetta closed in on it have similarly not been released. This has led to demands for more openness, which in turn has focused attention on ESA’s image and data release policy.

 

[JeanTate]

Good evening, Sol88,

I'd like to discuss just one piece of evidence if we can?

Yeah, that'd be awesome David, perhaps you can, since Tusenfem has trouble recalling, tell me about the OSIRIS image's targeting of the "jet" locations on 67P?

I'm sure they bracket the shots, so send the stack thru and we'll do some citizen science, looking at "bunnies" type science and we'll all have chinwag at the OSIRIS photos.

Just a start to move forward me thinks

(my emphases)

Do you know what format the science images - from OSIRIS - are in? I would guess that they're digital - so they're not "photos" - and that they have a dynamic range far greater than that in JPEGs; perhaps 12- or 16-bit (cf 8-bit for JPEGs). If so, then as citizen scientists, we'll need to be able to work with the full-data originals, not the lossy JPEGs, right?

What image processing software/apps do you have, that are likely to be able to do that?

I have used several, but for my own work I prefer to download FITS files with the image/science data, and process them using my own Python-based code (of course, I have no idea whether the OSIRIS image files are FITS or not).

 

[Reality Check]

I'd like to discuss just one piece of evidence if we can?

You forgot to mention what this "one piece of evidence" is, Sol88 !
Maybe it is a fantasy about the OSIRIS instrument picturing electrical discharges?

 

[Reality Check]

It's in the link below RC ... 1st_true_colour_image_of_comet_67p_emerges

Wrong, Haig - the link in your post is in my reply

The better question is what makes you think that this is a "true color" image, Haig ?
P41C-3942 Color Variegation on 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko

No mention of "true color" . Or for that matter a "first" image
This is a color image. Rosetta's OSIRIS camera instrument Narrow Angle Camera images has a spectral range of 245nm to 1000nm. The filters range from UV through the visible range to IR. This specific image was rendered in red for some reason.

You have a link to a reddit user who wrote his own title in this post and added the idiocy of "it looks like a chunk of Mars"!

Measuring comet 67P/C-G

This post provides a summary of some of the essential physical parameters of Comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko, as measured by Rosetta ahead of and since its 6 August rendezvous. This is an on-going process and the numbers will be updated as newer data are obtained, analysed, and made available.
...
Density 0.4 g/cm^3 RSI / OSIRIS

(my emphasis added).

Concerns over ESA’s Data Release Policy Amidst Rosetta Comet Landing[/QUOTE]

Allowing scientists to withhold data for some period of time is not uncommon in planetary science. According to Jim Green, the director of NASA’s Planetary Science Division, a 6-month grace period is typical for principal investigator-led spacecraft. However, NASA headquarters can also insist that the principal investigator release data for key media events.
...
However, ESA has a different structure than NASA. It relies much more on contributions from member-states, whereas NASA pays for most of its instruments directly. Rosetta’s main mission camera – the Optical, Spectroscopic, and Infrared Remote Imaging System (OSIRIS) – was developed by a consortium of institutes led by the Max-Planck-Institute for Solar System Research. As a result, ESA has less control over how information obtained by this specific camera is disseminated.

I would say it is the "less control" that is the problem. If there was more control in the form of a policy of releasing images to the public as soon as possible, then images would be available. As it is scientists seem too busy working on the images to prepare frequent public releases.

 

[jsfisher]

It's in the link below RC ... 1st_true_colour_image_of_comet_67p_emerges

Proof by reddit now?

You realize, too, that the camera has a color range from 1000 nm down to 245 nm in eleven steps, right? Any idea what would be the "true color" for 245 nm?

 

[Reality Check]

Any idea what would be the "true color" for 245 nm?

The image that Haig is talking about is the first color image from Rosetta. Rosetta's OSIRIS camera instrument Narrow Angle Camera does have

Naming conventions for images include the date, time in hours and minutes, and a spacecraft clock count. The last two digits in the file name identify the filters used. There are two overlapping filter wheels on each camera. For true-color NAC images, look for RGB combinations made with images ending with 12/13/14 or 82/83/84.

This may be combinations of three of the blue, green, orange and red filters.

 

[The Man]

Proof by reddit now?

You realize, too, that the camera has a color range from 1000 nm down to 245 nm in eleven steps, right? Any idea what would be the "true color" for 245 nm?

Very, very, very violet, one might even go so far as to say, well, ultra violet. Imagine a violet so violet you can't even see it.

 

[jsfisher]

Very, very, very violet, one might even go so far as to say, well, ultra violet. Imagine a violet so violet you can't even see it.

I see that.

 

[jsfisher]

The image that Haig is talking about is the first color image from Rosetta. Rosetta's OSIRIS camera instrument Narrow Angle Camera does have

Thanks for the link. Looks like the filters were selected with great care and purpose. Science, who knew?

This may be combinations of three of the blue, green, orange and red filters.

The orange filter is more red than orange, centered at 650 nm, and the red filter is mostly infra-red, centered at 740 nm. With just the blue, green, and orange filters I'd think you'd get good coverage for the visible spectrum.

 

[Ziggurat]

Hello Ziggurat,
(my emphases)

Wow, just ... wow!

I'm not sure I quite understand this; would you mind explaining it in a bit more detail please?

Also, if you accept Robitaille's claim, doesn't that invalidate a very large part of plasma physics? And if so, how can the likes of Scott, Thornhill, and Talbott seem so, um, accepting of Robitaille's claim? I mean, it wouldn't be like there's any middle ground; IF Robitaille THEN throw Alfven's work in the trashcan, right?

(I must be missing something really major; a fundamental inconsistency like this would surely cause Scott, Thornhill, and Talbott nightmares, wouldn't it?)

Imagine you have two flat surfaces close to each other, with vacuum between. One is a blackbody, the other is not. They can only exchange energy via radiation. When both are at the same temp., there can be no net flow of energy, or the 2nd law of thermodynamics is violated.

The blackbody surface radiates X amount of radiation. Some fraction R is reflected from the non-blackbody, for a total amount RX. The nonblackbody must also emit some radiation Y. We know that Y+RX = X, or else there is a net flow of energy, which means Y=(1-R)X. In other words, the more you reflect, the less you emit, and emission is always as a fraction of the blackbody spectrum. And that's basically Kirchoff's law of thermal radiation. Violate that, and you can make energy flow between objects which should be at equilibrium. One will get hotter, one colder, and you can then run a standard heat engine off the difference. Presto, perpetual motion.

If Robitaille is right, then astronomy is the least of it: we have perpetual motion, free energy, and the end to the number one source of human conflict (resource scarcity). But he's not.

As for Scott et al, they may simply have missed the implications. Or perhaps they just don't care, as long as the money flows from the rubes. I really couldn't say which.

 

[jsfisher]

Thanks for the link. Looks like the filters were selected with great care and purpose. Science, who knew?

The orange filter is more red than orange, centered at 650 nm, and the red filter is mostly infra-red, centered at 740 nm. With just the blue, green, and orange filters I'd think you'd get good coverage for the visible spectrum.

Had I read the full page, I'd have found this:

Naming conventions for images include the date, time in hours and minutes, and a spacecraft clock count. The last two digits in the file name identify the filters used. There are two overlapping filter wheels on each camera. For true-color NAC images, look for RGB combinations made with images ending with 12/13/14 or 82/83/84.

I assume the x2/x3/x5 combinations correspond to the blue/green/orange filters.

 

[Matthew Cline]

But the overwhelming devotion of funds to the dirty snowball illusion is impossible to deny.

What would electric comet proponents due with the funding, aside from laboratory experiments?

 

[Reality Check]

"In 2000, he turned his attention to thermodynamics and astrophysics, demonstrating that the universality advanced in Kirchhoff's Law of Thermal Emission is invalid."

The second bit of the woo in that video is:

He has published extensively on the microwave background, highlighting that this signal arises from water on the Earth and has no relationship to cosmology...

He is stating that water on Earth emits a perfect black body spectrum !
and the third fantasy

and has recently published a paper on the Liquid Metallic Hydrogen Solar Model (LMHSM).

This is ridiculous - we can see the plasma that the photosphere is made of!
We measure the density and temperature of the interior of the Sun using helioseismology and at no point is "liquid metallic" hydrogen detected.

Robitaille is a frequent submitter to the dubious Progress in Physics journal where this not cited LMHSM paper presumably is. Maybe this paper is Forty Lines of Evidence for Condensed Matter — The Sun on Trial: Liquid Metallic Hydrogen as a Solar Building Block where Robitaille exposes his near total ignorance of solar physics.

• There is the idiocy of going through old theories as if they were current solar physics, going back at least as far as Galileo!
• He has the delusion that the solar spectrum is treated as a black body because astronomers think that the Sun is a black body. The reality is that the temperature of the Sun is measured as temperature of an equivalent black body. Astronomers know that the Sun is only roughly a black body because they have measured its spectrum.
• He has the delusion that astronomers treat the Sun with "gaseous models" - the solar model is that it is a ball of plasma. This leads to ignorant statements like "Gases are unable to emit a continuous spectrum". Astronomers know that plasmas are able to emit a continuous spectrum.
• The gaseous delusion is repeated, e.g. about sunspots: "But the most pressing complication lies in the reality that gases are unable to generate powerful magnetic fields".
• Solar granules are crystals (1865 citation!) - followed by the crank assertion that Kirchhoff’s law being invalid means that the convection explanation for a bright center is wrong.

 

[Sol88]

You forgot to mention what this "one piece of evidence" is, Sol88 !
Maybe it is a fantasy about the OSIRIS instrument picturing electrical discharges?

The "jets", Reality Check, the "jets". You know the one of "dust and gas"

Images of the comet nucleus, taken by Rosetta earlier in the summer, showed that the distinct jets of dust and gas emanating from the comet were originated from the neck region, which connects the comet's two lobes. Images obtained by OSIRIS (Rosetta's Optical, Spectroscopic, and Infrared Remote Imaging System) now show jets of dust along almost the entire length of the comet.

NAVCAM's had a crack, couldn't find anything to suggest where the jets emanate from??

I mean where's the water?

 

[Reality Check]

Sol88: What about the jets is specifically predicted by the electric comet fantasy

The "jets", Reality Check,

3 December 2014 Sol88: What about the jets is specifically predicted by the electric comet fantasy to be confirmed by the OSIRIS instrument?

Wrong, Sol88 - we know where the jets originate from - the neck first and then all along the comet body.

You do not have to repeat a delusion that there has been no water detected at 67P - we already know that you have that delusion, Sol88 !
67P/Churyumov–Gerasimenko

On 6 June 2014, water vapor was detected being released at a rate of roughly 1 L/s (0.26 USgal/s) when Rosetta was 360,000 km (220,000 mi) from Churyumov–Gerasimenko and 3.9 AU (580,000,000 km) from the Sun.[25][26]

 

[Reality Check]

Sol88: What does the electric comet fantasy predict about jet locations

Wrong, Sol88 - we know where the jets originate from - the neck first and then all along the comet body.

3 December 2014 Sol88: What does the electric comet fantasy predict about jet locations, especially on 67P?

P.S.

1. 5th August 2009 Sol88: Now where in the many published papers on the electric comet idea is the prediction that the electrical discharges are of duration 10-15 ms (your claim)?
2. 5th August 2009 Sol88, How does the electric comet idea explain main-belt comets?
3. 17 November 2014 Sol88: Please cite the announcement of the discovery of hard rock (not "rock stuff" but the solid rock your theory demands) on comet 67P/Churyumov–Gerasimenko.
4. 17 November 2014 Sol88: Present the electric comet calculation of the density of comets
5. 18 November 2014 Sol88: Present the electric comet calculation of the amount of surface ice on 67P (no detected surface ice).
6. 18 November 2014 Sol88: Present the electric comet calculation of the amount of surface ice on Tempel 1 where surface ice was found
7. 18 November 2014 Sol88: Please present the electric comet calculation for the electric charge differential around comets and show that it matches the measurements.
8. 20 November 2014 Sol88: Can you understand that the Thunderbolts authors even lie about predictions
9. 20 November 2014 Sol88: Can you understand the significant delusions on that Thunderbolts web page on 67P "predictions"?
10. 24 November 2014 Sol88: Please cite the electric comet predictions for the albedo of comet nuclei (actual numbers not fantasies!)
11. 1 December 2014: A rather pathetic attempt to answer the above questions (mostly repeats of ignorance and fantasies).
12. 2 December 2014: Sol88 does not notice that Wal Thornhill narrates an ignorant and deluded video about 67P!
13. 3 December 2014 Sol88: What about the jets is specifically predicted by the electric comet fantasy to be confirmed by the OSIRIS instrument?

 

[The Man]

[*]Solar granules are crystals (1865 citation!) - followed by the crank assertion that Kirchhoff’s law being invalid means that the convection explanation for a bright center is wrong.
[/LIST]

Really? An "assertion that Kirchhoff’s law being invalid" in what is purported to be an electrical universe?

 

[Andy_Ross]

This 'Electric Comet' theory seems to be a bit of a Cheese Shop