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A group that was fundraising for Wilson claims that money was going to an organization that was led by the person prosecuting him. That organization disavowed any knowledge (of course, after this was made public) but it doesn't matter, even the appearance of impropriety is enough for a conflict to exist. It was really absurd to have this prosecutor on the case in the first place--there have been gobs of stories as to why that was so.

Hang on, the Organization was supposed to deny it before they knew about it? How does that work?

And you are aware that McCulloch wasn't actually involved in the GJ? Right? I mean, like you'd have to know that much, right? You are aware that the Prosecutors who were involved were Kathi Alizadeh and Sheila Whirley? Right? I'm sure you at least knew that.
 
That was pathetic.

The purpose of a jury is not to determine the truth. The purpose of a jury is to determine if the government has proven its case beyond a reasonable doubt. Even if the government's case is true, if it cannot meet the burden of proof required, then the jury must not convict.

If the government has no chance of proving their case beyond a reasonable doubt (and note that their inability to do so may have nothing to do with what the truth is), then there is no point in bringing the case to a jury trial, because the outcome is a foregone conclusion. That statement does not in any way mean that in cases where the government does have a chance at meeting this standard, a jury serves no purpose, because of course it does, and nothing I've ever said suggests otherwise.

I was being sarcastic. Responding to your statements without resorting to your tactic of direct insults. Your first statement about juries is of course just a generalization and not entirely correct. Ultimately a justice system should be concerned about a search for the 'truth', accepting the limitations of that search leads to burdens of proof. Not all cases involve juries, not all juries involve a burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Your problem is your self-serving pronouncements that the state had "no chance" in this case. You will repeatedly refer to the GJ decision to support that claim, without understanding that this was unfairly presented in the first place.
 
I think you're in the wrong sub-forum, conspiracy theories are that way-->

Do you have the slightest clue what the relationship of the prosecutors office to the police is? Do you know what "the appearance of impropriety" means?
 

Did you read that link before you posted it? I must say that young lady may have a future in politics as long as her patron isn't concerned with ethics, accuracy or getting caught lying through her teeth and blindsided by a competent opponent. It better be a safe seat, preferably unopposed.

The sources she posts contradict her characterization of them, which is usually a bad sign. For instance, the 'Backstoppers' organization which she thought indicated corruption on the part of McCulloch is actually dedicated to raising funds for fallen police officers and firemen. The ones who did the T-shirt fundraising, the “I Support Darren Wilson" group decided to include them amongst the beneficiaries of their proceeds. It's all kinds of stupid to think that means that because McCulloch is the vice president of that organization that McCulloch is raising funds for Wilson, it would be the other way around but only if you think that McCulloch is the actual beneficiary and not the fallen police and firefighters.

Mike Brown outweighed Darren Wilson by at least 75 lbs.

I just posted the video of Mike Brown in the Ferguson Market, why not look for yourself and see if you think that's Mike Brown and Dorian Johnson? As for why the owner of that establishment might deny it, he's had his place trashed at least twice now. They have a policy that 'snitches get stitches' and perhaps he doesn't care for stitches?

Read Darren Wilson's accounts yourself before the grand jury and his post shooting interview and judge for yourself whether they are materially different. Considering that lying before a grand jury is a punishable offense, I suspect those 'witnesses' reading from the script of a disproven narrative are better off having not testified...
 
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Hang on, the Organization was supposed to deny it before they knew about it? How does that work?

And you are aware that McCulloch wasn't actually involved in the GJ? Right? I mean, like you'd have to know that much, right? You are aware that the Prosecutors who were involved were Kathi Alizadeh and Sheila Whirley? Right? I'm sure you at least knew that.

yeah, and im sure you knew that there was no connection whatsoever between Alizadeh and Whirley and McCulloch, right?
Whether they knew about it or not is irrelevant. The appearance of impropriety was there.
 
yep, might as well get rid of jury trials...they suck at determining the truth. Honestly, they do. I can't tell you how many times ive seen juries arrive at bad decisions just because they are easily manipulated or don't understand all of the evidence--especially when it comes to forensics or scientific evidence. We need a system where only long-time JREF members are allowed to be jurors. :cool:

I have enjoyed reading your messages and I thank you for taking the time to post them. It's interesting and informative to read the opinions of someone based on their experience in the court system.

I have been on jury duty twice and I went one-for-two. The first jury was a civil suit in federal court, the plaintiff alleged he was injured (permanently) as a result of a botched procedure brought about by the staff's negligence. I thought his attorneys presented a pretty compelling case. The deliberations were one of the worst situations I ever had to sit through. Just terrible.

Once we began deliberating two of the jurors, very conservative women and teachers at the same high school, announced there was no way they would give the plaintiff one penny. They said no one is "guaranteed" a good result during a medical procedure. When I objected that the evidence -- which they seemed unfamiliar with -- seemed to prove conclusively that the attending nurse was filling out paperwork when she was supposed to be monitoring the patient undergoing the procedure (exactly as the plaintiff's attorney's contended), they asked me if I knew why my medical premiums were so high? I think I stared at them in disbelief. They answered, "Because of people like the plaintiff!"

It got worse.

A third juror had presumed we would all agree the medical center had been negligent and suggested we might start by working on the size of the award. She seemed to become unsettled when the two teachers angrily told her there wasn't going to be any award. The trouble was, the third juror also worked at the high school, but as an administrative clerk. I knew intuitively she was not going to buck two teachers at her school. Sure enough, she quickly, almost apologetically, changed her opinion.

The fourth juror was a mid-level manager with a public utility. Ironically during jury selection the lawyer for the defense, for the medical center, had hesitated before accepting him. The lawyer had asked everyone if they had any recent involvement with the medical system. This man said that the past summer he had lost his sixteen-year-old daughter to cancer. After a long pause the defense lawyer asked him did he think he could render a verdict based strictly on the evidence? This gentleman answered yes he was sure he could. He seemed like a very decent man.

During deliberations another side of him emerged. When I said I thought the plaintiff had a right to be compensated for his injury this juror became enraged. We came very close to a physical confrontation. He screamed at me, "I lost a sixteen-year-old kid to cancer. Who compensated me, huh? Who compensated me!" I held my tongue because I was certain one more word out of me and he was going to totally lose it.

I was stunned at the way the deliberations played out. It was one of the most disappointing, unsatisfying and depressing episodes I ever suffered through. I was really shaken by it. A couple years later I told a lawyer acquaintance about my experience and he wasn't surprised. He told me, "Yeah we call that a runaway jury. It happens."
 
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Do you have the slightest clue what the relationship of the prosecutors office to the police is? Do you know what "the appearance of impropriety" means?

Do you have the slightest clue what a conspiracy theory is? I'm guessing that'd be a no?

Do you have any evidence an "impropriety" took place? If so, please post evidence.

I'll wait.
 
Do you have the slightest clue what a conspiracy theory is? I'm guessing that'd be a no?

Do you have any evidence an "impropriety" took place? If so, please post evidence.

I'll wait.

you missed the "appearance" part--ill wait for you to look up that word.
Honestly, I don't think that particular incident is that huge compared to the overall unfairness of no special prosecutor being appointed.
 
That's not your call to make. It's standard issue police gear. Other officers don't seem to have a problem with theirs.

Speaking as some one who thinks Wilson made serious mistakes in the overall incident, I don't think one of them was using his gun to stop Brown (assuming Wildcat is mostly right about what happened). Once he set off on a lone pursuit of an individual that seemed to be acting in a crazed manner that had a substantial physical advantage over him he was making the decision that there was a good possibility that he or Brown would be dead at the end of the day. And he was the one with the gun so it was probably going to be Brown that would be dead.

My sense of it is that the people that have suggested above that non-lethal options aren't appropriate for this situation are right. Non-lethal solutions seem right when there are multiple officers involved in the situation so that the person using the non-lethal technique has back up if it doesn't work and non-lethal solutions seem right when a lone officer is trying to restrain a crazed individual that isn't showing signs that they are a threat to the officer.

The video linked to earlier in this thread where the disturbed individual was killed for no obvious reason other than that the cop was inappropriately scared and panicked seemed like an obvious place where non-lethal methods should have been used. If the cops weren't going to use non-lethal weapons in that situation they shouldn't waste the city's money on them and the shouldn't waste their time carrying them.

A couple of thoughts:
1. People's group biases seem to be affecting their overall view. Blacks are a significant interest group for Democrats and pandering to them is part of their strategy. People that view themselves as Democrats may subconsciously find themselves driven to believe that Wilson's actions constituted some form of murder.

That is not to say that I don't think similar group biases might not also have affected the more right leaning forum participants that seem to be supporting Wilson. The difference in this situation is that the arguments that they are putting forth seem to be the most reasonable to me with regards to whether the grand jury decision was appropriate.

2. I wonder if the evidence that supported Wilson had been released sooner, the community's reaction would have been more restrained. Wilson followed the modern strategy of saying the minimum until he had been confronted with the evidence. This was probably the best strategy for Wilson but it might have significantly harmed the community as the he shot Brown while Brown's hands were in air meme became deeply established in the minds of the community. At this point confirmation bias alone could be driving some of the unrest. That is not to say that just plain criminality isn't driving a lot of the unrest as well. I don't think looting liquor stores is doing much to support the idea that the Ferguson police department needs reform.
 
Do you have the slightest clue what the relationship of the prosecutors office to the police is? Do you know what "the appearance of impropriety" means?


Yet another of the traditional authorities of a grand jury -- to provide a check on government investigating itself.
 
you missed the "appearance" part--ill wait for you to look up that word.
Honestly, I don't think that particular incident is that huge compared to the overall unfairness of no special prosecutor being appointed.

Ohh okay so no impropriety actually took place, only the appearance of one?

Is that correct?

Like I said, you're posting in the wrong area of this forum.
 
I was being sarcastic.

Sarcasm without purpose is pointless. What was your purpose? Whatever it was, you haven't managed to serve it well.

Responding to your statements without resorting to your tactic of direct insults. Your first statement about juries is of course just a generalization and not entirely correct.

The exceptions are not relevant here.

Ultimately a justice system should be concerned about a search for the 'truth', accepting the limitations of that search leads to burdens of proof.

And we've already reached those limits. You have given no reason for why a jury trial would obtain the truth any better, other than the authority of the jury. But the authority of the jury is not granted because they are better equipped to discover the truth.

Not all cases involve juries, not all juries involve a burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

This case would have. Exceptions such as cases with plea bargains aren't relevant.

Your problem is your self-serving pronouncements that the state had "no chance" in this case.

And you've given no reason or argument for thinking otherwise. You are, in fact, demonstrably ignorant about the actual evidence of the case.
 
No bitchin from me :) I think the evidence could be presented in ways to favor either side. I would have liked to have seen a vigorous debate in court rather than a one-sided charade.

I would rather have prosecutors that didn't attempt to bring weak cases to trial and I'd like to bleach the undies of those who do and give them wonder-wedgies. That doesn't serve justice, it most certainly doesn't serve civil rights, all it does is convict innocents and my guess is that hurts the likes of most of the ones doing the protesting more than the rest of the field.
 
Speaking as some one who thinks Wilson made serious mistakes in the overall incident, I don't think one of them was using his gun to stop Brown (assuming Wildcat is mostly right about what happened). Once he set off on a lone pursuit of an individual that seemed to be acting in a crazed manner that had a substantial physical advantage over him he was making the decision that there was a good possibility that he or Brown would be dead at the end of the day. And he was the one with the gun so it was probably going to be Brown that would be dead.

My sense of it is that the people that have suggested above that non-lethal options aren't appropriate for this situation are right. Non-lethal solutions seem right when there are multiple officers involved in the situation so that the person using the non-lethal technique has back up if it doesn't work and non-lethal solutions seem right when a lone officer is trying to restrain a crazed individual that isn't showing signs that they are a threat to the officer.

The video linked to earlier in this thread where the disturbed individual was killed for no obvious reason other than that the cop was inappropriately scared and panicked seemed like an obvious place where non-lethal methods should have been used. If the cops weren't going to use non-lethal weapons in that situation they shouldn't waste the city's money on them and the shouldn't waste their time carrying them.

A couple of thoughts:
1. People's group biases seem to be affecting their overall view. Blacks are a significant interest group for Democrats and pandering to them is part of their strategy. People that view themselves as Democrats may subconsciously find themselves driven to believe that Wilson's actions constituted some form of murder.

That is not to say that I don't think similar group biases might not also have affected the more right leaning forum participants that seem to be supporting Wilson. The difference in this situation is that the arguments that they are putting forth seem to be the most reasonable to me with regards to whether the grand jury decision was appropriate.

2. I wonder if the evidence that supported Wilson had been released sooner, the community's reaction would have been more restrained. Wilson followed the modern strategy of saying the minimum until he had been confronted with the evidence. This was probably the best strategy for Wilson but it might have significantly harmed the community as the he shot Brown while Brown's hands were in air meme became deeply established in the minds of the community. At this point confirmation bias alone could be driving some of the unrest. That is not to say that just plain criminality isn't driving a lot of the unrest as well. I don't think looting liquor stores is doing much to support the idea that the Ferguson police department needs reform.

Excellent post. The point about biases is very true...and NewYorkGuy's response to me above (thanks, NewYorkGuy) illustrates how those biases can come into play even in deliberations in a trial. That's why it's baffling to me when I hear Phantom etc exclaim that this case would have no prayer of conviction at trial. Well, of course it would have no prayer if all the jurors were supporters of Wilson. Half the battle in a trial is finding 'unbiased' jurors. Obviously, in the extreme reverse case, an all black jury made up of Ferguson residents may have looked at the evidence differently. So there's no 'guaranty' of a result in a trial. The best we can do is try to ensure that the process is as fair as possible. I don't think that was the case here.
 
Excellent post. The point about biases is very true...and NewYorkGuy's response to me above (thanks, NewYorkGuy) illustrates how those biases can come into play even in deliberations in a trial. That's why it's baffling to me when I hear Phantom etc exclaim that this case would have no prayer of conviction at trial. Well, of course it would have no prayer if all the jurors were supporters of Wilson. Half the battle in a trial is finding 'unbiased' jurors. Obviously, in the extreme reverse case, an all black jury made up of Ferguson residents may have looked at the evidence differently. So there's no 'guaranty' of a result in a trial. The best we can do is try to ensure that the process is as fair as possible. I don't think that was the case here.


And you haven't supported that last part with evidence.
 
2. I wonder if the evidence that supported Wilson had been released sooner, the community's reaction would have been more restrained. Wilson followed the modern strategy of saying the minimum until he had been confronted with the evidence. This was probably the best strategy for Wilson but it might have significantly harmed the community as the he shot Brown while Brown's hands were in air meme became deeply established in the minds of the community. At this point confirmation bias alone could be driving some of the unrest. That is not to say that just plain criminality isn't driving a lot of the unrest as well. I don't think looting liquor stores is doing much to support the idea that the Ferguson police department needs reform.

You're definitely right about this in my opinion. The Ferguson PD ought to have immediately released the video of Mike Brown in the Ferguson Market and detailed the charges he'd have faced if he'd actually surrendered. A legend was born from that information void that buried Darren Wilson and the Ferguson PD.

The ones that arrested the reporters in the McDonalds were utter morons too. That's one of those things that's so stupid it makes you wonder if they were getting paid by Crump!
 
And you haven't supported that last part with evidence.

well, the evidence is that an unarmed guy was gunned down, and half a dozen or more witnesses say he was not an imminent threat to Wilson. What more would you like for probable cause?

Open question for those brave enough to speculate on a skeptics forum. I know that is frowned upon, so if helps, do it purely on the evidence you've seen. We all can probably agree that Brown was moving towards Wilson when the fatal shot was fired. In your opinion, is it more likely that he was charging Wilson in attempt to kill/harm him, or is it more likely that he was attempting to surrender? Or feel free to add a third scenario... I really would be curious as to your thoughts, especially Wildcat, Phantom or Ziggurat. Why do you come to that conclusion? I really don't have a dog in this race (could be Brown deserved to die...) I just think the process went unfairly for him (and many others).
 
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Excellent post. The point about biases is very true...and NewYorkGuy's response to me above (thanks, NewYorkGuy) illustrates how those biases can come into play even in deliberations in a trial. That's why it's baffling to me when I hear Phantom etc exclaim that this case would have no prayer of conviction at trial. Well, of course it would have no prayer if all the jurors were supporters of Wilson. Half the battle in a trial is finding 'unbiased' jurors. Obviously, in the extreme reverse case, an all black jury made up of Ferguson residents may have looked at the evidence differently. So there's no 'guaranty' of a result in a trial. The best we can do is try to ensure that the process is as fair as possible. I don't think that was the case here.

For me it's because I have faith that most Juries are willing to look at the evidence and judge the case on that, not on biased emotions that have nothing to do with what actually happened.

The Physical Evidence doesn't lie, and the scene and the autopsies (all three of them) tell a story of their own. Even if we totally ignore every speck of eye witness testimony and just look at the physical evidence we start to get a story develop.

We have blood and tissue from Brown inside the car, and a near contact wound in Brown's hand the bullet exiting higher in the arm.

We have two shell cases in or near the car.

We have a cluster of shell casings 100-150 feet down the road

We have an audio recording of the shots, 6 rapid, a pause for about a second, and then four more rapid shots.

We have a clear blood trail that shoes that Brown headed away from the vehicle, and then turned and came back towards it.

We have the path of three bullets that were lodged in Brown's head and torso showing that his head and torso where pointed towards the shooter at the time he was hit.

We have a through and through wound to Brown's arm showing that his arm was not in front of his head at the time that bullet struck him

We have a grazing shot that indicates the same

I'd love to see a chart of the wounds because the direction of the bullet wounds to the arms would confirm and lot of things.

We have the position of the body when it fell, with the arms down at his side, not up above his head.

We have Brown's shoes and the spacing of the blood drops indicating he was running

We know that Brown covered 15-20 feet in a matter of seconds under fire based on the turning point, the time take to fire the final 10 shots, and his body position.

Why do we need eye witnesses? The physical evidence by itself pretty much tells us all we need to know, and it has no biases and doesn't lie.
 
For me it's because I have faith that most Juries are willing to look at the evidence and judge the case on that, not on biased emotions that have nothing to do with what actually happened.

The Physical Evidence doesn't lie, and the scene and the autopsies (all three of them) tell a story of their own. Even if we totally ignore every speck of eye witness testimony and just look at the physical evidence we start to get a story develop.

We have blood and tissue from Brown inside the car, and a near contact wound in Brown's hand the bullet exiting higher in the arm.

We have two shell cases in or near the car.

We have a cluster of shell casings 100-150 feet down the road

We have an audio recording of the shots, 6 rapid, a pause for about a second, and then four more rapid shots.

We have a clear blood trail that shoes that Brown headed away from the vehicle, and then turned and came back towards it.

We have the path of three bullets that were lodged in Brown's head and torso showing that his head and torso where pointed towards the shooter at the time he was hit.

We have a through and through wound to Brown's arm showing that his arm was not in front of his head at the time that bullet struck him

We have a grazing shot that indicates the same

I'd love to see a chart of the wounds because the direction of the bullet wounds to the arms would confirm and lot of things.

We have the position of the body when it fell, with the arms down at his side, not up above his head.

We have Brown's shoes and the spacing of the blood drops indicating he was running

We know that Brown covered 15-20 feet in a matter of seconds under fire based on the turning point, the time take to fire the final 10 shots, and his body position.

Why do we need eye witnesses? The physical evidence by itself pretty much tells us all we need to know, and it has no biases and doesn't lie.
But besides that there's no evidence!
 
Did you read that link before you posted it?

Of course I did, what makes you think I didn't.

“I Support Darren Wilson" group decided to include them amongst the beneficiaries of their proceeds. It's all kinds of stupid to think that means that because McCulloch is the vice president of that organization that McCulloch is raising funds for Wilson, it would be the other way around but only if you think that McCulloch is the actual beneficiary and not the fallen police and firefighters.

Well, they did distance themselves once the news broke.

Mike Brown outweighed Darren Wilson by at least 75 lbs.

So what? Brown was severely overweight, it doesn't make him strong. Wilson was a highly trained, man of steel standing alone between you and the forces of evil.

P.S.- after a lot of experience fighting, size don't mean anything unless the two people are of equal ability. If Wilson was of the ability of a vastly overweight blob, I think it is doubly good news that he resigned.

I just posted the video of Mike Brown in the Ferguson Market, why not look for yourself and see if you think that's Mike Brown and Dorian Johnson? As for why the owner of that establishment might deny it, he's had his place trashed at least twice now. They have a policy that 'snitches get stitches' and perhaps he doesn't care for stitches?

Yeah, they [the Darkies] are a bad lot, ain't they, Boss?

Read Darren Wilson's accounts yourself before the grand jury and his post shooting interview and judge for yourself whether they are materially different. Considering that lying before a grand jury is a punishable offense, I suspect those 'witnesses' reading from the script of a disproven narrative are better off having not testified...

The grand jury fiasco is just proof that the fix was in. What was done in this case with a grand jury is NEVER done with grand juries. Brown's family never gets a say. There is no fair process here.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...shadow_trial_violates_the_public_s_right.html

And no prosecutor treats a defendant the way Wilson was treated by McColloch:

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/1...prosecutor-treated-him-with-kid-gloves-video/

Then the "prosecutor" holds a bizarre news conference to announce the decision:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/24/bob-mcculloch-ferguson_n_6215986.html

The problem in Ferguson was aptly noted 30 years ago:

“When a shocking crime occurs, a community reaction of outrage and public protest often follows. Thereafter the open processes of justice serve an important prophylactic purpose, providing an outlet for community concern, hostility, and emotion.” (Chief Justice Warren Burger)
 
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