Continuation Part 11: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Dan O.]

...
So? Some video formats can be played on VLC but not Quicktime.

I do not believe that is so. QuickTime knows how to access the CODECs within other applications. If you installed VLC the movie will play within QuickTime.

 

[Samson]

Planigale and Samson,

I don't wish to say with 100% certainty that they are not blood at this time, but here are a few of my reasons for thinking that they probably are not blood from the crime. One, Meredith's DNA is not present in the majority of the spots, yet low template DNA profiles can be generated from only a few cells. Two, the prints in Amanda's room do not match her reference foot. Three, the print in the hallway assigned by the FP to Raffaele does not look like his foot (see MichaelB's comment a photo a few days ago).

I think that there is another more plausible hypothesis, namely that a substance has become bonded to the floor is causing the luminol reaction. Luminol penetrates through paint, according to a citation given earlier this week. The lack of reactivity with TMB might be because the overapplication of luminol created a situation where the test for TMB failed due to a failure to acheive the correct pH. Luminol is done under basic conditions, but the TMB test is done under acidic conditions. I am also working on another possibility.

There are multiple scenarios that include
1. A murder with blood propogation from the immediate locale.
2. A legitimate resident who is probably/certainly the only person who was present between the murder and the presence of many people.
3. Her account is consistent with exculpatory evidence, and legal nicities, that are contained within the protocols of common law.
If there are two equally likely explanations for a set of circumstances, there should be granted credence to the version of the accused.

I am paraphrasing from memory, not legal exactitude.

 

[Planigale]

Therefore the issue is two bare feet need to hit one of Rudy's prints, less chance, rather than one foot, strong chance.
Actually I am surprised this is not discussed more, but it is obviously better not to concede to any blood for the defence, despite this alternative explanation seeming pretty good to me.

I always thought that Knox stood on the bathmat in bare wet feet after showering and got dilute blood on her feet. I remember there is something about a bathmat shuffle, this seems ideal for contaminating her feet. The bathroom was never sprayed with Luminol. The Luminol positive footprints I think are likely to be Knox's and fit with her description of what she did. Some pro-guilt commentators deny that she showered the next day at her flat, I think this is proof she did.

 

[Samson]

I always thought that Knox stood on the bathmat in bare wet feet after showering and got dilute blood on her feet. I remember there is something about a bathmat shuffle, this seems ideal for contaminating her feet. The bathroom was never sprayed with Luminol. The Luminol positive footprints I think are likely to be Knox's and fit with her description of what she did. Some pro-guilt commentators deny that she showered the next day at her flat, I think this is proof she did.

I read her email of the 4th as being her last will and testament to truth and freedom.
It goes close to bringing tears to my eyes.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

It should be clear, by now, that the papers like the Tobe, Creamer et al. (2007) disprove the reasons ("for this reason") suggested in the manuals like the one above.
In fact, the most recent scientific articles go in the direction contrary to the handbooks you cite such as the Gefrides, Welch et al., and make these handbook explanations look obsolete.

This is why I say your dispute is not with us, but with the labs. They are following these manuals that you say are obsolete. Even Stefanoni did so.

You need to educate them, Machiavelli! Explain that you have performed cutting-edge research on Google, and you have determined that Infallible Blue Loony-nol is the one, true test for blood.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

I always thought that Knox stood on the bathmat in bare wet feet after showering and got dilute blood on her feet. I remember there is something about a bathmat shuffle, this seems ideal for contaminating her feet. The bathroom was never sprayed with Luminol. The Luminol positive footprints I think are likely to be Knox's and fit with her description of what she did. Some pro-guilt commentators deny that she showered the next day at her flat, I think this is proof she did.

The problem is that the footprints aren't really positioned correctly for that to make sense, and they seem to show at least two different right feet.

This is one reason I have been after Machiavelli to explain his mat-sliding theory in detail. But he is too busy with his ground-breaking serology research.

 

[Planigale]

Planigale and Samson,

I don't wish to say with 100% certainty that they are not blood at this time, but here are a few of my reasons for thinking that they probably are not blood from the crime. One, Meredith's DNA is not present in the majority of the spots, yet low template DNA profiles can be generated from only a few cells. Two, the prints in Amanda's room do not match her reference foot. Three, the print in the hallway assigned by the FP to Raffaele does not look like his foot (see MichaelB's comment a photo a few days ago).

I think that there is another more plausible hypothesis, namely that a substance has become bonded to the floor is causing the luminol reaction. Luminol penetrates through paint, according to a citation given earlier this week. The lack of reactivity with TMB might be because the overapplication of luminol created a situation where the test for TMB failed due to a failure to acheive the correct pH. Luminol is done under basic conditions, but the TMB test is done under acidic conditions. I am also working on another possibility.

We also see from the photos of the bathroom that there is the wide spread presence of a substance that causes phenolphthalein to react and therefore is likely to cause Luminol to change colour. Mach says demonstrate a possible cause of a false positive Luminol result - one can see one possible source in that bathroom.

What we are saying is there is no time stamp on these Luminol positive marks. There is no identity. They may be due to a non blood substance. Mach says a TMB test is unnecessary, whether Mach thinks it is unnecessary is irrelevant, the point is the test was done. If the TMB test was negative then there is only one restricted circumstance in which it could be blood. If it was blood it has to be highly diluted and therefore compatible with contamination of Knox's feet after she showered. However you play it there is an innocent explanation. What Mach says is that we must ignore any innocent explanation if it might be an indicator of guilt because this is the only possible evidence of Knox being present at the time of the murder. I think that these are indicators of innocence because they fit Knox's story of what she did. If you start with asking yourself if Knox took a shower the next morning and stood on the bath mat what might you expect to find? A bare footprint in highly dilute blood. The other splodges elsewhere may be unrelated. if a sticky substance was spilled, then it might catch DNA e.g. from bare feet, it might catch substances such as soil or rust that could give rise to a Luminol result.

 

[anglolawyer]

Indeed, as Kauffer has authoritatively argued on epistemological grounds, unless and until PG types - even self-proclaimed nemeses - can prove a clean-up in the murder room itself, which left Guede's traces and removed all traces of AK and RS, these luminol blobs are bootless nonsense. And John Douglas, amongst other experts, has authoritatively argued that the blood smears coupled with the size of the room leave no space for second or third participants, much less a clean-up.

I mean, at the end of the day, who are you going to believe: an obsessive-compulsive, anonymous loon on the internet, or a storied pro with first hand knowledge of thousands of murder scenes?

js202, respectfully, we are all obsessive compulsive anonymous loons here. Let's tone it down a bit. Machiavelli may be annoying but he (they) is (are) at least instructive, even if not always in the way he/they intend(s).

 

[Planigale]

The problem is that the footprints aren't really positioned correctly for that to make sense, and they seem to show at least two different right feet.

This is one reason I have been after Machiavelli to explain his mat-sliding theory in detail. But he is too busy with his ground-breaking serology research.

i have no problem with only a right foot being contaminated. I am not sure you can say that there are two different feet, but if that is so my hypothesis falls.

 

[LondonJohn]

No scientific papers reports nything of the kind. You are making your own scientific speculations and guesses, and they are wrong. The oxidation of TMB chemical cannot take place (be catalyzed) in the absence of an oxidant, and the oxidant is precisely the peroxide that you add on the second step. What reaction can the vegetable peroxidases and metal salts catalyze, until there isn't the second reagent?
Metal salts do catalyze the luminol reaction as well as the TMB reaction because their ions can be used, again and again, but you need to have two reagents, not just one. You must have an oxidant. TMB does not change colour without an oxidant. Catalyzers are not enough.

Again....... what??

The only false positive here that requires the addition of an oxidising agent (peroxide) is the peridoxases, and these too will produce a false positive for blood with the 2-part TMB test (which is yet another reason why even a positive 2-part TMB must be followed by a confirmatory test). The others - chlorites, permanganates and certain metal salts - are all oxidising agents in their own right. These substances will therefore catalyse the reduction of TMB all on their own (i.e. without the need for the addition of peroxide), and will therefore show up in part one of the 2-part TMB test.

Ergo (once again), the 2-part TMB test is vastly more specific for blood than Hemastix....and Luminol.

 

[Dan O.]

I always thought that Knox stood on the bathmat in bare wet feet after showering and got dilute blood on her feet. I remember there is something about a bathmat shuffle, this seems ideal for contaminating her feet. The bathroom was never sprayed with Luminol. The Luminol positive footprints I think are likely to be Knox's and fit with her description of what she did. Some pro-guilt commentators deny that she showered the next day at her flat, I think this is proof she did.

That would be a reasonable explanation except for the minor little detail of the negative TMB result that says there is no blood. That and the tracts at almost the end of the hall well past where Amanda would have shuffled into her room. And a tract in Amanda's room that isn't Amanda's foot.

We also see from the photos of the bathroom that there is the wide spread presence of a substance that causes phenolphthalein to react and therefore is likely to cause Luminol to change colour. Mach says demonstrate a possible cause of a false positive Luminol result - one can see one possible source in that bathroom.

The substance is spread wider than you think, it's called oxygen and it causes phenolphthalein in the Kastle-Mayers test to start to turn pink after about 30 seconds.

 

[bolint]

People always want to treat human memory like a tape recorder while it is more like a bunch of kids playing telephone.

I don't believe that they were busy on the computer all night long and don't remember anything.
Not at all tape recorder memory is wanted, but the slightest memory of what they were watching.
Especially incredible is that neither of them remembers anything.
No Naruto, no Stardust. Nothing.

 

[platonov]

Memories

I don't believe that they were busy on the computer all night long and don't remember anything.
Not at all tape recorder memory is wanted, but the slightest memory of what they were watching.
Especially incredible is that neither of them remembers anything.No Naruto, no Stardust. Nothing.

Not true bolint.
She remembered PL [the other black guy] raping & killing MK.

And at a recent press conference RS remembered that he wasn’t sure if AK was in or out on the ‘night’ of the murder.
He certainly remembered that he wasn’t claiming her as an alibi.

 

[bolint]

Hey Bolint, what is the translation of "ultima apertura"?

It is not the "last access date" that the file system maintains and which the Encase software that the postal idiots ran looked at. "ultima apertura" translates to "last opening" which is metadata maintained by Spotlight and intended to show the last human activity associated with a file. The Naruto file was accessed by the P2P system much later and that is why the Last Access timestamp was not in the window that the postals were looking at.

"Ultima apertura" means Last opening.
I know it is a not a filesystem metadata, but I don't see that it is exclusively used by Spotlight. All I found is that it is used by the Launch Services

https://developer.apple.com/library...LaunchServicesConcepts/LSCTasks/LSCTasks.html


The metadata item in question must be

kMDItemLastUsedDate
Date and time that the file was last used. This value is updated automatically by LaunchServices every time a file is opened by double clicking, or by asking LaunchServices to open a file.
Value Type: CFDate
Framework: CoreServices/CoreServices.h
Header: MDItem.h
Availability: Available in OS X v10.4 and later.

Source:
https://developer.apple.com/library...adataAttributesRef/Reference/CommonAttrs.html


But again it is not specific enough, it is not clear if it is used solely for opening through human interaction. Launch Services is an API that could be called from programs.

 

[bolint]

As for the keyboard activity:
It is apparent from the early morning data, that the keyboard inactivity timeout is about 4 minutes.
It would be formidable even in a full working day to keep the keyboard busy for 8 hours without a single 4 minute inactivity period, let alone through an amorous night.
So this "proof" of 11 hours of computer activity is pure nonsense.

 

[bolint]

Many applications keep a recent files list and I've notices a particular anomaly that the list typically only includes those files that were opened by the user from within the application. When the file is opened by clicking on it's icon within the Finder, the application's list does not get updated. Has this behavior of VLC been verified?

My VLC (on Windows) puts the files on the recent files list even if they were opened by clicking on them.

The VLC application is quite buggy.

I agree.

 

[anglolawyer]

I don't believe that they were busy on the computer all night long and don't remember anything.
Not at all tape recorder memory is wanted, but the slightest memory of what they were watching.
Especially incredible is that neither of them remembers anything.
No Naruto, no Stardust. Nothing.

Not true bolint.
She remembered PL [the other black guy] raping & killing MK.

And at a recent press conference RS remembered that he wasn’t sure if AK was in or out on the ‘night’ of the murder.
He certainly remembered that he wasn’t claiming her as an alibi.

This is one of the major fault lines between the two sides. I would be more persuaded of the pro-guilt position if they had actually been asked in detail about their own activities right away on the 2nd. But I believe they weren't because:

1 if they had been, we would have heard about what they said (it would have been a pack of lies, right?)
2 if (as I believe) they became suspects early on (due to all the highly suspicious behaviour you guys always go on about) then the cops would have steered clear of asking them anything that might alert them to their undisclosed status.

It follows, to me, the first time they were expected to have total recall was some time after the night of 5th-6th, getting on for a week later. That is already plenty of time for them to forget whether they watched amelie etc that night or the night before or some other night but also, as has been pointed out many times before here, if guilty, they surely would have made a better fist of agreeing their stories.

You find it hard to believe they just forgot but it seems to me vastly more difficult to believe they hung out in the piazza for two and half hours and just assumed no one saw them, or that Amanda went to Quintavalle first thing in the morning and just gambled on him not remembering her. All this after leaving Raffaele's foot print on the bath mat. In your view of the case, they just switch their brains off completely waiting to be caught having called attention to themselves by laughing and joking etc etc. That's what is hard to believe IMO.

 

[anglolawyer]

As for the keyboard activity:
It is apparent from the early morning data, that the keyboard inactivity timeout is about 4 minutes.
It would be formidable even in a full working day to keep the keyboard busy for 8 hours without a single 4 minute inactivity period, let alone through an amorous night.
So this "proof" of 11 hours of computer activity is pure nonsense.

I don't think that's what Milani is saying.

 

[Machiavelli]

This is why I say your dispute is not with us, but with the labs. They are following these manuals that you say are obsolete. Even Stefanoni did so.

You need to educate them, Machiavelli! Explain that you have performed cutting-edge research on Google, and you have determined that Infallible Blue Loony-nol is the one, true test for blood.

But this is a straw man. The only interlocutor as source is scientific findings and research. Laboratory practice is not a source nor a subject with which you and I have anything to dispute. Scientific practices are often wrong, on many disciplines, protocols and habits change, and there is nothing strange in this.
What is strange is you think they should be always an authoritative source, in the face of scientific studies that prove the contrary, in the absence of any scientific argument in support, and even outside the context of their application (a defensive argument where you are trying to prove that something is a substance different than blood).
It's disingenuous on your part to suggest I should publish my own research: the researches disproving the alleged grounds for alleged frequent laboratory practice already exists.
It is something obvious that articles like Tobe and Webb flatly disprove the presumed significance of a colorimetric test. It is an unavoidable implication of these findings, you can't do anything to help this.

 

[carbonjam72]

i have no problem with only a right foot being contaminated. I am not sure you can say that there are two different feet, but if that is so my hypothesis falls.

Well, if the luminol prints can't be dated, then one supposes technically multiple prints could have been left at different times. But I think the fact was brought up that Stef did perform a follow-up TMB test, which proved the luminol hits were not blood.

So while the 'Amanda's diluted blood footprint' is good thinking as a"possibility", it doesn't appear supported by Stef's having proved those luminol hits are not blood.

I believe I remember hearing one of the experts, perhaps John Douglas, explaining the luminol hit as most likely from a cleaning product used in the shower, and that similar luminol hits would be found in literally anyone's home. Indeed, weren't luminol hit also found in Raf's apartment, that no one is contending is blood?

I think the focus on the luminol hits in the hallway is another distraction from the central evidence, against only Rudy Guede, in the room where Meredith was killed, as other have pointed out. It's not just evidence against Rudy Guede, it's evidence that affirmatively excludes the presence of anyone else.