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Continuation Part 11: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Listen Kauffer, I'm just not interested. Your way of posting etc. I will only exchange posts here with those who don't engage in tactics.

You never addressed my attempted discussion with you about how Amanda and Raf left no reliable evidence of their involvement behind, yet Rudy left multiple pieces of reliable evidence. It was a follow-up to your speculation they were wearing gloves in the bitter 50 degree F cold weather. And forgot to take them off when they got to the cottage. And randomly recruited Rudy to participate in a murder they were not planning ahead of time.

I believe your next post in the thread was actually about how horrible of a human being Amanda Knox is. Any reason why you bailed, disappeared for a few days, then resurfaced with personal attacks devoid of any discussion of the evidence? This is what TJMK and PMF posters do. For all your disparagement of those communities, you sure do act an awful lot like them.
 
Vibio said:
Me? My own hunch, my own feeling has always been that Knox was not the murderer.

I, for one, would like to hear more about this. It sounds like you accept some tenets of innocentisti criticism about the investigation/prosecution, but obviously not all.

I'm with Kauffer, though. I am fully willing (and able) to be convinced that at some level Mignini/Comodi/Massei, or Crini/Nencini are right.

What do you need from the innocentisti here to feel comfortable expanding on this? I mean, things can get pretty "ad hominem" fairly quickly.

Whereas I feel I am fundamentally not "confirmation biased", it is obvious that I am fairly well entrenched in the innocentisti position. There are basic things that will be rough to let go of - things like how on earth Amanda and/or Raffaele can be seen meaningfully in the murder room, and why anything found outside the murder room is not simply a byproduct of normal day-to-day living of the place Knox lived in for weeks.

You may see that as being confirmation biased - nothing much I can do about that, though.

Fundamentally, I do not understand the Pro-guilt PR position. It makes no sense, and seems to be resistant to being put onto a timeline which accounts for the evidence.

It also requires the reversal of the burden of proof - as witnessed by Machiavelli's continual evaluation of evidence with the view that items "can be" associated with guilt, therefore it is up to innocentisti to prove that they are not indicators of guilt.

I don't want to type too much here - you can probably guess the hurdles you face in convincing someone like me. I at least want to be honest about it.

But every once in a while someone from the pro-guilt side makes what is to me a startling admission.... "My own hunch, my own feeling has always been that Knox was not the murderer," and it would be nice, not to mention simply informative, to hear more.

How on earth is it "sleazy tactics" to ask someone to provide a timeline for their theory of the crime?

You have filled out a bit more how you believe this crime went down, and have tried to make a case that Knox's first "confession" was essentially the way this thing happened, she in the kitchen and someone (perhaps two) in Meredith's room doing the actual murder.

How is it "sleazy" (or overall dumbness!) to challenge this on the issue of: there is no timeline of the crime which fits the evidence? It's simply not good enough to complain about the other when you cannot answer.
 
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unwarranted inference

In other words, less than one percent of the planet's judicial systems.

The other 99.9 percent allow luminol (as they should), allow defendants to object to luminol findings (as they should), and then let juries determine, on a case by case basis, the meaning of the luminol findings.
griffinmill,

What, precisely, is wrong with excluding luminol results that are unsupported by any other tests? And your proof that the other jurisdictions do allow luminol in is what, exactly? What are the particulars in this example? In this case the lack of Meredith's DNA in the majority of samples, the failure to run a confirmatory test, the fact that the luminol was over applied, and the fact that the TMB was negative all point toward ignoring the luminol results.
 
It was a follow-up to your speculation they were wearing gloves

In fact: I brought it up as pure speculation with a "who knows" added to it. I never pushed that argument or gave any indication I was convinced of it. You are the one who will not let it go.

I believe your next post in the thread was actually about how horrible of a human being Amanda Knox is.

I posted the exact quotes of those who were with her at the police station. Sorry, but I find that kind of behaviour, as it was recounted, vile. I don't care if it was Amanda Knox or whoever... that behavior as recounted is vile.

Furthermore: Ms. Knox is a convicted criminal. And I believe justly so. Convicted criminals usually do tend to get rough treatment as far as comments go. Get used to it.

There are people who believe Casey Anthony is guilty too...and guess what? Their comments aren't so kind either. And that's the way it goes.

Any reason why you bailed, disappeared for a few days,

I have a career that engages my time and mental energy, I can't hang out here 24/7
 
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At Injustice Anywhere, pmop57 posted this:

Having looked up a little more about Luminol in German Forensic literature Luminol is nothing more but a presumptive test and should only be used anymoreas the last instance to eventually detect not visible blood spots or pattern. Bu all the authors state that the Luminol test is not a confirmatory test and that further test will have to be performed to validate any presence of blood.They also state that in the future the use of Luminol will completely disappear because being a source of much to much erroneous results leading to false positives and often being at the origin to destroy and/or modify DNA samples.
Luminol will be replace mainly by new methods of light filtering in combination with high speed photography.
In this case it is clear for me that the Prosecition assisted by the Forensic Police did everything to validate every possible trace they found to make it confirm the presence of AK and RS at the crime scene. Of cause they have been favoured simply by the fact that AK had been living at that place and that it was simply a gact that RS had legitimately been at the cottage.
The forensic Police simply did not detect any credible forensic evidence (traces, prints or biological material) that could link AK and RS to the stabbing of MK.
Equally the alleged matching the knife to the bloody imprint of a knife on the bed is junk science, validating such speculative assertions with wording like "highly probable" or "can be assessed with certainty" are simply lies.
The same is valid for the foot print on the blue bathmat allegedly belonging to RS.


So Luminol is not considered confirmatory in Germany either.
 
results were swept under the rug

Fortunately, most juries aren't likely deluded into thinking that the lack of a confirmatory test means the substance wasn't blood when they are presented testimonies from experts on both sides.
griffinmill,

You misrepresent the situation. The defense did not even know about the negative TMB results until late in the first trial. In the Lovejoy case a similar situation resulted in his being granted a new trial, because the court recognized that the defense might have pursued a different strategy.
 
How on earth is it "sleazy tactics" to ask someone to provide a timeline for their theory of the crime?

You have filled out a bit more how you believe this crime went down, and have tried to make a case that Knox's first "confession" was essentially the way this thing happened, she in the kitchen and someone (perhaps two) in Meredith's room doing the actual murder.
How is it "sleazy" (or overall dumbness!) to challenge this on the issue of: there is no timeline of the crime which fits the evidence? It's simply not good enough to complain about the other when you cannot answer.

Interestingly, even if true, that is not murder if she just covered up the crime. Would still be a crime but would get far lower punishments in most jurisdictions. Vibio is arguing that Amanda is NOT guilty of murder.
 
In fact: I brought it up as pure speculation with a "who knows" added to it. I never pushed that argument or gave any indication I was convinced of it. You are the one who will not let it go.

Above, you claimed you would only exchange posts with those who did not engage in "tactics". I was attempting to understand your position regarding the complete lack of evidence of Amanda and Raf in the murder room, and reconcile your speculation they were wearing gloves with "it was cold outside" (probably actually 50+ degrees F, but who's actually checking these things right?).

You didn't respond to this. You posted a completely irrelevant aside about Amanda being a meany face. Now you are saying I "won't let it go" because I'm actually trying to, you know, get a single reasonable response from you.

Are you sure you're only "not exchanging" posts with people who engage in "tactics"? Because it looks like you are not exchanging posts with anyone who has a reasonable argument, because it may involve you actually posting a scenario that actually makes sense with the known facts and puts Amanda and Raf at the murder. And we both know you don't actually want to do that, because *gasp* it may become clear that you're wrong and your feelings about Amanda don't amount to a whole lot.

I posted the exact quotes of those who were with her at the police station. Sorry, but I find that kind of behaviour, as it was recounted, vile. I don't care if it was Amanda Knox or whoever... that behavior as recounted is vile.

I am very aware that you don't like her. I am also aware that you're completely avoiding any and all posts that require an analytical and reasonable accounting of the evidence.

Furthermore: Ms. Knox is a convicted criminal. And I believe justly so. Convicted criminals usually do tend to get rough treatment as far as comments go. Get used to it.

OK, fine. Amanda is a poopy head. We get it, you don't like her. I'll give you that she may be mean. Now how about you provide some sensible evidence (besides your infallible feelings) that suggest she participated in a gang rape/murder without leaving any evidence behind?

There are people who believe Casey Anthony is guilty too...and guess what? Their comments aren't so kind either. And that's the way it goes.

GRRRR I sure do hate that Casey Anthony person. No need to discuss any evidence (since I, you know, hate her). Just throw the meany in jail!

(FWIW, I believe Casey Anthony is guilty as hell. I also don't feel the need to talk about what a vile person she is to make my case. This is because I'm rational and not dumb, and how horrible she is has no impact on the actual evidence found.)

I have a career that engages my time and mental energy, I can't hang out here 24/7

You are posting now. How about you reply to that post now? You seem to conveniently have time when you want to post about how you don't like Amanda, but when requested to give a timeline that makes sense your time vanishes. (We both know the real reason you didn't reply, but I thought I'd ask anyway just to follow up with you.)
 
Bill Williams said:
How on earth is it "sleazy tactics" to ask someone to provide a timeline for their theory of the crime?

You have filled out a bit more how you believe this crime went down, and have tried to make a case that Knox's first "confession" was essentially the way this thing happened, she in the kitchen and someone (perhaps two) in Meredith's room doing the actual murder.
How is it "sleazy" (or overall dumbness!) to challenge this on the issue of: there is no timeline of the crime which fits the evidence? It's simply not good enough to complain about the other when you cannot answer.

Interestingly, even if true, that is not murder if she just covered up the crime. Would still be a crime but would get far lower punishments in most jurisdictions. Vibio is arguing that Amanda is NOT guilty of murder.

I ran across people early on who echo'ed this... in a sense Barbie Latza Nadeau was probably one of them. This was the answer she never gave to her claim that, "Knox knows something she's not telling us." There are many non-garden variety guilters who essentially have Knox guilty of some lesser crime.

If they are too vocal about it, though, they get banned at "those" sites. But the claim is essentially the same, really - there's no evidence at all to support this "lesser involvement". People sometimes go public and try to present some, but it always leaves glaring holes in other areas...

Of course, Nadeau has moved on. She is a go-to person from North America in covering things Italian - the Costa Concordia, the Mez-murder, and now the earthquake trials.

(Ok, I now get it.... it's what makes me sleazy and a dumbass, that Nadeau is the Rome Bureau Chief for The Daily Beast and Newsweek. Not to mention CNN goes to her all the time, and Winterbottom bought the rights to her book! But don't worry, I'm the dumbass because CNN is in "tenth place".)
 
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Interestingly, even if true, that is not murder if she just covered up the crime. Would still be a crime but would get far lower punishments in most jurisdictions.
Vibio is arguing that Amanda is NOT guilty of murder.

Actually accomplices are considered as guilty as the principle who carries out the murder and as I understand it, convictions are usually the same.
 
Actually accomplices are considered as guilty as the principle who carries out the murder and as I understand it, convictions are usually the same.

The trouble is that if she is in the kitchen, she is not an accomplice, by the way you seem to be arguing:

At law, an accomplice is a person who actively participates in the commission of a crime, even if they take no part in the actual criminal offense. ​

You do not appear to be arguing that she took an active part in commissioning the crime.

Note: To be clear, I consider Amanda and Raff to be innocent completely. I am not moving my position.
 
CSI for real

You seem to have caught the Halkides disease in believing that the studies he quotes, largely authored by professional defense experts, represent the larger scientific community.

Meanwhile, cases go on where juries hear the actual scientific evidence regarding luminol and forensics, from both sides, and make informed decisions as to its weight.
This is an astonishingly false statement. Several of us have quoted multiple sources saying that luminol is not a confirmatory test for blood. Some of the quotes have come from people who are employed by public crime laboratories. If it were true, you should be able to find quotations from people who say the opposite.

This is also a remarkably wrongheaded statement. It suggests that the state's witnesses are dispassionately telling it as it is, and the defense witnesses are just hired guns trying to derail an honest conviction. This ignores cases where the government's witnesses were consciously or unconsciously shading the truth, or where the prosecution hid evidence. It also ignores the fact that some defense witnesses work pro bono (not that they should have to).

Wrongful convictions such as those of Lindy and Michael Chamberlain, Patricia Stallings, and Greg Taylor indicate that the problem of biased forensics is real and is certainly not limited to the defense. I spent some time refuting your views in a previous comment and included some valuable links, none of which (from what I can infer from your comment) you bothered to read. Your loss. If people take a genuine interest in the subject of forensic bias, I also recommend Roger Koppl's "CSI for Real."
 
So there was this perp walk (or was it in police cars ?)...through the streets of Perugia... sort of a parade. I imagine there must be plenty of photos and videos of this event.

Perugians with their cellphones snapping, journalists out there with a great photo-op, the TV news programs filming away.

People lining the sidewalks, standing in doorways, looking down from windows up above the spectacle.
Well, lets see those photos and videos.
Thanks in advance.

vibio,

We discussed this almost four years ago in these threads. Please try to keep up.

Discussions aren't photos and videos.

As I recall there were links to blogs but no links to any visual proof of the seven car parade thru town with lights flashing.
 
As I expected. The whole world knows what you think is true, but Italy doesn't.

Additionally, Italy also ignored the fact that every other nation in the world accepts that luminol without confirmatory testing is worthless.

Yet AK/RS attorneys vaguely argued this obvious fact, and the global scientific community has been largely silent in watching it unfold.

If any such debate were going on, you would be able to produce citations of it.

You may also wish to claim that there is a debate in the larger scientific community as to whether or not the earth is round. Based on your ideas about luminol and rejection of empirical science, you would certainly be in the flat-earth believers; apparently that is your form of "skepticism."

griffinmill,

Still waiting for your citations demonstrating that there is a debate in the forensic science community that luminol chemiluminescence without confirmatory testing is sufficient evidence of the detection of blood.
 
Could you please explain why, if this was universally accepted as true, that RS/AK attorneys didn't just rest their case on this unassailable fact? Or why the judges, in the face of this incontrovertible evidence, didn't throw the luminol out?

Do you think maybe, just maybe, the larger scientific community debates the arguments you consider as self evident scientific doctrine?

griffinmill,

Still waiting for your citations demonstrating that there is a debate in the forensic science community that luminol chemiluminescence without confirmatory testing is sufficient evidence of the detection of blood.
griffinmill,
I wanted to get the correct posting of yours aligned with my request for your back-up citations.
 
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Swecker Wolf report

??? Ignorance may be bliss, but it is still ignorance.

Anyone who knows anything about this subject can easily cite "lots of cases" where misrepresentation of presumptive blood tests has been flagged as a problem in a criminal trial. It just takes time to look them up.

Here is a brief article about a crime lab audit where the focus was on that very subject:

http://www.newsobserver.com/2010/08/19/635632/scathing-sbi-audit-says-230-cases.html

This audit was not commissioned by defense lawyers. It was commissioned by a state attorney general. I can find the full audit report itself, or you can find it yourself if you care. I'm not going to bother looking if you don't care, which seems to be the case.
Charlie Wilkes,

"The exoneration of Greg Taylor, a Wake County man imprisoned 17 years for a murder he didn't commit, prompted the review. SBI analyst Duane Deaver admitted in February that he failed to report tests indicating a substance on Taylor's SUV was not blood."

Thanks for the link, from which I found the quote above. Joseph Neff also did admirable work on the Duke lacrosse case. A link to the Swecker-Wolf report is here.
 
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I am very aware that you don't like her. I am also aware that you're completely avoiding any and all posts that require an analytical and reasonable accounting of the evidence.

OK, fine. Amanda is a poopy head. We get it, you don't like her. I'll give you that she may be mean. Now how about you provide some sensible evidence (besides your infallible feelings) that suggest she participated in a gang rape/murder without leaving any evidence behind?

This aspect of the whole saga is a complete mystery - however, Vibio is not alone.

A major aspect of this for many is: Amanda's behaviour.

This cannot be separated from the wrongful prosecution/conviction, because initially the cops said that they'd essentially solved this crime from behavioural clues only. The pro-guilt lobby doesn't address that.

Still, though, it remains a major issue for some - not just Vibio. No less than Erin Burnett on CNN (a 10th place network) had no less than Paul Callan and Steve Moore on her show. Callan and Moore take opposite views on many things..... but you wouldn't have known it from the way Burnett conducted the interview.

Burnett kept defaulting to, "But what about Knox's behaviour?" Callan and Moore kept talking about the law and evidence.

It's just very strange that this is what some get hung up on. To be clear, I am not accusing Vibio of being hung up on this one point. Everyone is entitled to their opinion on what is or isn't "appropriate behaviour".

One would hope that they would also take into account issues of maturity or cross-cultural things..... but still, cultural relativity is not everything.

But what on earth does behaviour have to do with it? Filomena Romanelli's behaviour - she lawyered up immediately thinking she'd be on the hook for the damage to her room as well as future rent on a place behind crime scene tape. Her boyfriend who said, "No, she was stabbed with the bread," when Raffaele asked if she'd been stabbed with a knife.

Or how about this for beavhiour: Rudy Guede fled to Germany.
 
Alan Harris article, previously mentioned

I don't see why jurors would understand luminol evidence any better than bite evidence.

I was trying to come up with an equivalent of luminol. There is a test I heard about for a certain form cancer with false positives. There is something like a 10% of a false positive by population. The problem is that as the population is billions of people compared to the rarity of the cancer, if you show positive, it is still far more likely that you don't have it. A person would likely thinking "I have cancer" not understanding the numbers. You have to have additional testing to determine if it actually is cancer.
There are also presumptive tests for controlled drugs. Google "A TEST OF A DIFFERENT COLOR: THE LIMITED VALUE OF PRESUMPTIVE FIELD DRUG TESTS AND WHY THAT VALUE DEMANDS THEIR EXCLUSION FROM TRIAL" and you may find a draft of a legal argument discussing this. The author is Alan Harris, and the citation for the published paper is Southwestern Law Review, v.40, no.3, 2011 Wntr, p.531-550 (ISSN: 1944-3706)
 
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Presumptive guilt

This aspect of the whole saga is a complete mystery - however, Vibio is not alone.

A major aspect of this for many is: Amanda's behaviour.

This cannot be separated from the wrongful prosecution/conviction, because initially the cops said that they'd essentially solved this crime from behavioural clues only. The pro-guilt lobby doesn't address that.

Still, though, it remains a major issue for some - not just Vibio. No less than Erin Burnett on CNN (a 10th place network) had no less than Paul Callan and Steve Moore on her show. Callan and Moore take opposite views on many things..... but you wouldn't have known it from the way Burnett conducted the interview.

Burnett kept defaulting to, "But what about Knox's behaviour?" Callan and Moore kept talking about the law and evidence.

It's just very strange that this is what some get hung up on. To be clear, I am not accusing Vibio of being hung up on this one point. Everyone is entitled to their opinion on what is or isn't "appropriate behaviour".

One would hope that they would also take into account issues of maturity or cross-cultural things..... but still, cultural relativity is not everything.

But what on earth does behaviour have to do with it? Filomena Romanelli's behaviour - she lawyered up immediately thinking she'd be on the hook for the damage to her room as well as future rent on a place behind crime scene tape. Her boyfriend who said, "No, she was stabbed with the bread," when Raffaele asked if she'd been stabbed with a knife.

Or how about this for beavhiour: Rudy Guede fled to Germany.

It's a justification of belief - a confirmation of a 'fact' they believe is already known. They have the answer and then look for the proof of it, which must be there because they have the answer. And yet I doubt her behaviour was much different in essence from anyone else's. Of course everybody has their little quirks. But only Ms Knox has a guilt filter applied to hers.

But she cried as everyone else did, she was angry as everyone else was, was as visibly shocked as everyone else and needed to be comforted like everyone else. It's a hell of a stretch to connect anything she did to murderous intent. Equally, it is highly contradictory of a further thesis - that Ms Knox is a clever manipulating plotter capable of getting others to act almost against their wills - to do her bidding.

She is this Machiavellian and yet cannot act anonymously post the murder so as not to draw attention to herself? It doesn't really fit - a bit like the idea of spending all that time fitting up Guede but then deliberately implicating Lumumba. That doesn't fit either.
 
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It's a justification of belief - a confirmation of a 'fact' they believe is already known. They have the answer and then look for the proof of it, which must be there because they have the answer. And yet I doubt her behaviour was much different in essence from anyone else's. Of course everybody has their little quirks. But only Ms Knox has a guilt filter applied to hers.

But she cried as everyone else did, she was angry as everyone else was, was as visibly shocked as everyone else and needed to be comforted like everyone else. It's a hell of a stretch to connect anything she did to murderous intent. Equally, it is highly contradictory of a further thesis - that Ms Knox is a clever manipulating plotter capable of getting others to act almost against their wills - to do her bidding.

She is this Machiavellian and yet cannot act anonymously post the murder so as not to draw attention to herself? It doesn't really fit - a bit like the idea of spending all that time fitting up Guede but then deliberately implicating Lumumba. That doesn't fit either.

Kauffer - I disagree. I do not think "confirmation bias" covers this.

Erin Burnett is sincere as an individual. She says she's stuck on Amanda's behaviour as an indicator of......... what? Erin Burnett, the journalist, has in front of her both Paul Callan and Steve Moore, who themselves can have a fairly decent donnybrook about what the evidence is and what it means....

But Burnett kept defaulting to herself as an individual and abandoned being a journalist, "then there was Amanda's behaviour." (No wonder CNN is #10!)

No less than Katie Couric on one of her very first afternoon shows had no less than Raffaele Sollecito on. Couric is not a lightweight, not at all. Yet there she had Sollecito in front of her, and all she could ask him, really, was to explain Amanda's behaviour!

If Couric had actually read Sollecito's book, she'd have found he dealt with that. Sollecito said that in the Questura he was uncomfortable with Amanda's behaviour, but not because it was "inappropriate" per se. As an Italian, he could read the cues from the cops as they observed the same behaviour, and he thought that Amanda was naive - but that his role was one of support, and not criticism at a time of grief. Besides, taking her aside on the wild assumption they were now suspects was not anywhere near his thoughts: and saying, "listen, you know how people say that you're odd? Well, this is one of those times and even though I'm okay with it, I'm quite sure you cannot read the tea-leaves as to what's going on with Napoleoni!" He did not do that. Twenty-twenty hindsight says that would have been support - but then again, it had never occurred to him that the murder would be pinned on them!

Kauffer - I "get" all the criticisms you point to above. But there are simply too many people who get stuck on this behaviour issue - and the very, very, very strange observation about it is, most people who comment on it readily agree that it has nothing to do with the murder itself.

And the dots beg for connecting which are not, apparently, connected.

If one thinks this has nothing to do with the murder, what thrill does one get from commenting on this at all?

You see, really, their behaviour was no different than others. Filomena's in lawyering up for purely practical purposes. Was she cold towards Meredith in doing that? Even if so, would that in a million years implicate Filomena in a murder?

There's something going on here that is not quite "confirmation bias." Seasoned detectives zero'd in on behaviour, one judge saying that they did not need evidence because "common sense" indicated their guilt. Journalists with no shabby reputation zero-in on behaviour..... to the point of asking Raffaele to make an excuse for someone else's behaviour, when he himself is sitting right there, willing to speak about his own innocence!!!!

There's something going on here that is not quite "confirmation bias."
 
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