If third world living is very bad, why the increasing population?

RandFan said:
Can we eliminate evolutionary factors? Wouldn't better education increase the survival rate of progeny?

We can't eliminate evolutionary factors are far as living beings are concerned, I guess. :) I was just offering another perspective. Humans do not always follow their instincts (think of the pill!); they have their reasonings to behave like they do.

If you think in terms of abject poverty or rural society, then I agree that having as many babies as possible is advantageous for the family because it provides better chances of survival and cheap labor. But this is the extreme.

There are many levels of poverty, thus the causes for early pregnancy/ multiple children will vary also.

Survival rates of progeny will be very good (though not excellent), through most of Central and South America, specially at urban centers. So having many children doesn't work in this regard. Children, however, can be used for begging and for getting governmental assistance.

And I have never seen any serious study that could separate low income from low educational level in this case, as both things are too intertwined. What causes what, first of all? I'm not saying it's not possible, I'm just saying I never saw it. Maybe it's not pragmatic to follow that line of research.
 
Luciana Nery said:
We can't eliminate evolutionary factors are far as living beings are concerned, I guess. :) I was just offering another perspective. Humans do not always follow their instincts (think of the pill!); they have their reasonings to behave like they do.

If you think in terms of abject poverty or rural society, then I agree that having as many babies as possible is advantageous for the family because it provides better chances of survival and cheap labor. But this is the extreme.

There are many levels of poverty, thus the causes for early pregnancy/ multiple children will vary also.

Survival rates of progeny will be very good (though not excellent), through most of Central and South America, specially at urban centers. So having many children doesn't work in this regard. Children, however, can be used for begging and for getting governmental assistance.

And I have never seen any serious study that could separate low income from low educational level in this case, as both things are too intertwined. What causes what, first of all? I'm not saying it's not possible, I'm just saying I never saw it. Maybe it's not pragmatic to follow that line of research.
Good points. And you point out the problematic nature of determining such underlying causes. I think we would both agree that improving education even the most basic could improve the situation, correct?
 
Too poor to do anything but screw + too poor to afford birth control = increasing population.
 
I think that most human problems could be solved with more video games.

Overpopulation: Don't touch my tooter now; I'm trying to get the Golden Nose-Ring from Gonzo the Magnificent.

War: Why spend all the effort to blow up people in person when you can get even better blood-spatters on your screen?

Depletion of oil: I'll drive to the store tomorrow. Right now I have to get to the end of the chapter.

Education: Gee, I wonder what "Charon Makes No Change" means.
 
Good points. And you point out the problematic nature of determining such underlying causes. I think we would both agree that improving education even the most basic could improve the situation, correct?

Oh, yes. The more educated a mother is, the more she will push education into the child. She will also provide better nourishment and a more hygienic environment.

A parent with little to no education can't deal with the symptoms of a disease, for example. Can't research, either. They will ask the neighbor, who is just as illiterate. Then you get very sad stories of children dying of easily treatable diseases. Or women getting pregnant because taking a pill every other day won't make you fat. Right to literacy should be a basic human right, if you ask me.

A woman with the perspective of a career - or any perspective - won't keep having children. In many cases, when a 14 year old gets pregnant, is because she doesn't like school, doesn't expect to have a career, really can't think of any future for herself. But you can always be a mother and count on the government to provide the basics.

Malnourishment during pregnancy and in the early years of a child will result, among other things, in lower IQs. That will later develop into quite a number of learning disabilities. You can see the vicious circle here.
 
Dorian Gray said:
Too poor to do anything but screw + too poor to afford birth control = increasing population.

I have always loved how some people have really simple explanations to things like that. :) That one still goes back to education. There's a strong correlation between income and educational level.

Too poor to do anything but screw... I have always wondered how much that could be true. Around here the poor have soccer, samba and the sun to occupy their time (and I'm not kidding, not entirely!). Maybe they do different stuff, it doesn't mean they "can't" do stuff. But then, to this, I don't really have an answer. Maybe there's escapism. But unless we ask "how often do you do it" and get results by income level (hoping the answers are sincere!), I don't know how else we can be sure!
 
Luciana, for education to be effective, wouldn't the 'manhood' culture need to change first?
 
Luke T. said:
There are other cultural factors involved in the spread of AIDS in Africa that have nothing to do with "traditional societies increasing their wealth." .



And it isn't the Church that is so much preventing the use of condoms, but the culture itself.


Would you care to let us partake of your knowledge of the cultural factors in Africa (remembering that Africa counts 54 countries and a few hundreds languages, as well as various climates, religions, traditions, historical backgrounds, and policies and attitudes towards aids ...) ?

As a 1/2 African (Cameroon), I'd be delighted to enlighten my (half) compatriots ...
 
P.S.A. said:

And this is one of the reasons I stopped posting in Politics; I got tired of trying to argue objective realities with people who could only understand their own subjective impressions of the world... interpretations which would usually prove completely hypocritical or foolish by the next paragraph anyway.

Like the above; if there are "other cultural factors" involved, then you admit that it's not "only through multiple partners outside of marriage that AIDS spreads en-masse", is it?

The sole cultural factor you claimed: "It's one of the greatest evils of the AIDS crisis in Africa that the very means by which traditional societies have always increased their wealth is the one that's now killing them en-masse."

In other words, the desire to increase their wealth by having more children is what is killing them en masse. That is pure bunk. If you can't understand that I was pointing out the more likely factors, rather than the one you claimed, then by all means continue digging that hole.


And what's more, do I have to sit here now and explain to you that if one of those "cultural factors", not just in Africa but in all pre-industrial societies, is that people marry young and produce big families fast that this might be one of the ways in which AIDS is spread "en-masse"?

Ah, one of the ways. Sure. Somewhere way down on the list maybe.

Like, to their children perhaps? Children who, with no education at all, let alone the ability to diagnose early Immune Deficiency, might be married and breeding themselves before they actually succumb to the disease?

Are the children who are born with AIDS born through marriagae or out of wedlock? Any idea what the percentages are? Your attempt to tie childhood AIDS to the "increasing of weath" is based on an assumption.

Do I have to sit down and patiently walk you through all the ways in which AIDS can be transmitted without sexual contact at all, and how it just has to get into ONE monogamous relationship by any of those means to then reap the harvest of resulting children from a "Traditional Family" "en-masse"?

I know all the methods by which AIDS is transmitted. And so do you, I'm sure. So why don't we have a comparable epidemic of AIDS in the U.S.? What are the primary cultural differences? Do you really think it is because they are more married and having more children than we are?!? Do you think it has anything to do with marriage at all, outside of the lack or absence of marriage?

AIDS in children is secondary. What is the primary AIDS vehicle? The adults. How are they getting it? By screwing to have kids? You must be joking.

Oh, I don't deny that the primary source of infection in Africa at present is sexual encounters rather than infection at Birth. But then, I'm also talking to someone whom I seem to recall has had a number of failed monogamous relationships himself. And I in turn owe my existance to a second marriage which failed because of my fathers antics with my mother in his first. Infidelity isn't just a feature of Africa now, is it? You might wish human nature was different, but it's not...

Again, so why don't we have a comparable AIDS epidemic in the U.S.?

And children in this country know what drugs will do to them, but they still do drugs. Drive to fast? You betcha! Smoking and risk of cancer? Feh, we say! And how many times were you married again Luke? You knew what relationships were like, and yet you still got involved again, yes?

And I suffered the consequences of my behavior and learned from them. And my brother suffered the consequences of his behavior and died from AIDS.

No, I'm not racist. And I'm not blaming the Bush Administration or the Catholic Church for causing AIDS. The HIV virus does that. But they are exaserbating the crisis by putting ideology before pragatism. In the Bush Administrations case, by linking AIDS funding to abstinence programs which don't work even in America, it's spiritual home, much less a land so wedding to manhood as you've tried to show... It's simple enough to google up; just do a search for "Bush Administration Abstinence AIDS Africa", and enjoy the enormous numbers of people active in the field of AIDS prevention complaining about how counter productive such policies are. Christian Aid and CAFOD amongst them, both of whom I've fund raised for. And then there's the White Houses' squalid attempts to disrupt production of cheap generic retrovirals in South Africa and Brazil due to pressure from Big Pharma...

Blah, blah, blah. Still blaming Bush and the Church.

Perhaps you missed the fact that recommending condoms doesn't work in Africa either. So anyone who recommends condoms in Africa is exacerbating the problem, too, right?

If someone chooses to ignore advice that is guaranteed to save their life (abstain from sex outside of monogamous marriage), and then acquired AIDS, whose fault is that?

If everyone abstained from sex outside of marriage, would AIDS stop? Yes. In its tracks. There's your cure right there.

What is exacerbating the problem is the idea that sex outside of marriage is to be expected. It is unrealistic to think people will use condoms. (edited to add: See below for what I am talking about.)
 
Flo said:
Would you care to let us partake of your knowledge of the cultural factors in Africa (remembering that Africa counts 54 countries and a few hundreds languages, as well as various climates, religions, traditions, historical backgrounds, and policies and attitudes towards aids ...) ?

As a 1/2 African (Cameroon), I'd be delighted to enlighten my (half) compatriots ...

Do you concur with ""It's one of the greatest evils of the AIDS crisis in Africa that the very means by which traditional societies have always increased their wealth is the one that's now killing them en-masse"?

edited to add: All I am saying is that the idea that AIDS is spreading in Africa because of the desire to have kids is patently ridiculous and that it is far more likely there are other factors more involved.
 
Cultural Differences
A big barrier to containing the HIV epidemic is cultural differences that make fighting the disease much more difficult. In some African populations, having multiple sexual partners is expected as part of cultural expression. This increases the risk of transmission because of the shear number of sexual contacts, most of them between parties who are unaware they are infected.

Oddly enough, the success of HIV medications is also contributing in a small part to the African epidemic. Complacency has led to a rise in unprotected sex, both heterosexual and among gay men. People have seen the success of medications and feel that if infected, a few pills is not a large price to pay for spontaneity. This state of mind can and will have huge ramifications.

So the epidemic rages on. Some experts expect two thirds of the Sub-Sahara population will eventually be wiped out by AIDS. A sobering thought indeed. While there have been a few successes in the region, AIDS continues it's devastating attack on a population, a culture, a people. Changes have to be made soon...while there is still time.

http://aids.about.com/cs/aidsfactsheets/a/african.htm

So what is "exacerbating the crisis" again, Silicon?
 
Condom technology has failed. Simple statistics, propounded by Family Planning show that 24 billion condoms should be used each year. However, only 9 billion are manufactured. Of this number, approximately half are sold commercially, while the other half are given away through numerous programs, sponsored by government and non-government organizations. Of the total number of condoms distributed, only one-fourth to one-third are ever used. Roughly speaking, there are around 2 billion condoms used which makes for a shortfall of around 22 billion that should be used.

http://www.srv.net/~msdata/africaaidsplan.html

I also showed in an abortion topic once, from an objective source, that half of all abortions are the result of pregnancies that were the result of using NO birth control method whatsoever. That's about half a million aborted pregnancies a year in America from not using condoms, or the pill, or anything. What does that tell you about preaching condom use to prevent AIDS?

And if the other half million abortions were from actually using birth control, what does that tell you about the advantages of condoms over abstinence when it comes to preventing AIDS, much less a pregnancy?
 
P.S.A. said:
... but wouldn't you say that maybe, just maybe some African's have a genuine Catholic faith too? That they might listen to Mother Church with just as much respect and devotion as an American Catholic? And isn't there a teaching in said faith which could save a jolly few more lives if it was reconsidered? Perhaps even if only in one of those monogamous relationships you are so keen to see working, yes? "Thou shalt honor and protect thy Wife" maybe?

It is my hunch that those societies that preach "abstinence, abstinence, abstinence" will survive the AIDS crisis more intact than those societies which preach "condoms, condoms, condoms."

Or we can just continue to foist our own ridiculous conceptions onto reality, and then sit back and watch the ultimate reality claim millions more. Because it's so much easier to blame the victim, and their egos, when we aren't the victim in question.

My family has been a victim of AIDS. The offering of free needles did not prevent my brother from sharing them with his IV using friends. The sharing of needles is part of the IV user culture.

But, hey, kids are going to do drugs, right? It's unrealistic to preach abstinence. So let's have our society and our government tell them there are free needles available to them.

****ing insanity.
 
Luke T. said:
Do you concur with ""It's one of the greatest evils of the AIDS crisis in Africa that the very means by which traditional societies have always increased their wealth is the one that's now killing them en-masse"?

In most of the poorest countries and regions, yes. Same in the Asian countries where children are your workforce and your retirement fund, and therefore women are uneducated and disempowered. It is certainly not helped by all the anti-contraception "moralists" who would slap their "values" on the way other people live, but without ever trying to understand, even less to help correct, the basic causes, that have mostly to do with socio-economic conditions and far less with culture - the "elites" are far less affected.

In short, my point is that your discourse is the same old tired preaching about how "we in the West are more moral than those benighted savages - all the same, damn the fact that we're talking 54 countries and far more different cultures - and all would be well if only they would abide by our prescriptions".


As for

Condom technology has failed. Simple statistics, propounded by Family Planning show that 24 billion condoms should be used each year. However, only 9 billion are manufactured. .....

are we talking about production technology, or its efficacy ? If the latter, the situation in countries (most of Western Europe for example) where its use is unimpeded by religious/moral considerations shows it is utter bunk. Of course, those spewing this kind of nonsense counts on uneducated people to understand that condoms are not worth it.

(might be unclear at times: end of the day, tired and English not my first language, sorry).
 
Luke T. said:
I also showed in an abortion topic once, from an objective source, that half of all abortions are the result of pregnancies that were the result of using NO birth control method whatsoever. That's about half a million aborted pregnancies a year in America from not using condoms, or the pill, or anything. What does that tell you about preaching condom use to prevent AIDS?

That the sort of person who doesn't worry about pregnancy is the sort of person who doesn't worry about disease. Careless people.

And if the other half million abortions were from actually using birth control, what does that tell you about the advantages of condoms over abstinence when it comes to preventing AIDS, much less a pregnancy?

Unless the birth control in question was condoms, it's not relevant. The pill, the sponge (making a comeback), etc don't prevent STD transmission. The people who worry about pregnancy and not STDs are being careless. I have a cousin who had two, count 'em, two pregnancies by two different guys because "the pill didn't take". My response, "what the f was she doing using only the pill?!?!" and that she was damned lucky to wind up with a couple of kids and not a couple of viruses, or worse-case scenario, both kids and viruses.

I think you're overlooking the fact that the same people who are too foolish to worry about STDs are also too foolish to worry about pregnancy. The success rates of various methods of preventing either or both are irrelevant to them, because they're going to do it anyway. If there was no safe sex available, they'll still go ahead. To join the abstinence bandwagon, they'd have to worry. Clearly they don't.


eta: And also, with the whole HIV thing, too many straight people assume it's a gay thing and they don't have to worry about it.
 
Flo said:
In most of the poorest countries and regions, yes. Same in the Asian countries where children are your workforce and your retirement fund, and therefore women are uneducated and disempowered. It is certainly not helped by all the anti-contraception "moralists" who would slap their "values" on the way other people live, but without ever trying to understand, even less to help correct, the basic causes, that have mostly to do with socio-economic conditions and far less with culture - the "elites" are far less affected.

In short, my point is that your discourse is the same old tired preaching about how "we in the West are more moral than those benighted savages - all the same, damn the fact that we're talking 54 countries and far more different cultures - and all would be well if only they would abide by our prescriptions".

Answer these.

Would AIDS be stopped if everyone abstained from sex outside of marriage?

Would AIDS be stopped if everyone continued in their sexual habits but always used a condom?

Does the advocacy of abstinence necessarily have to have a moral attachment to it? Why do you appear to assume I do?

are we talking about production technology, or its efficacy ?

We are talking about supply and demand. Of course we have the means to make as many condoms as are recommended! There just isn't a demand for them. And yet you can't admit preaching condom use isn't realistic as easily as you seem to believe that preaching abstinence is unrealistic.

If the latter, the situation in countries (most of Western Europe for example) where its use is unimpeded by religious/moral considerations shows it is utter bunk. Of course, those spewing this kind of nonsense counts on uneducated people to understand that condoms are not worth it.

So Europe has whipped this AIDS thing, have they?
 
P.S.A. said:
In the Bush Administrations case, by linking AIDS funding to abstinence programs which don't work even in America, it's spiritual home, much less a land so wedding to manhood as you've tried to show... It's simple enough to google up; just do a search for "Bush Administration Abstinence AIDS Africa", and enjoy the enormous numbers of people active in the field of AIDS prevention complaining about how counter productive such policies are.

It must be acknowledged that Europe has been less impressive than the United States on the AIDS front. At the G-8 meeting, France committed itself to spending $150 million a year. If France had made an effort proportional to America’s, it would have put up $500 million. But it didn’t, and organizations like Act Up have protested the French “betrayal.” Still, countries like Germany and Britain, or Japan, have been much stingier. And the world fund is cruelly lacking in money to finance the programs it has set up in some 120 countries.

Le Nouvel Observateur (left-wing weekly), Paris, France, Nov. 27, 2003

Two years ago, U.S. President George W. Bush signed a bill giving his country a leading role in fighting the world's three most devastating diseases: malaria, tuberculosis, and HIV/AIDS. Yesterday the House of Representatives' International Relations Committee held a hearing to review the progress of the program, focusing on the five-year, $15 billion U.S. initiative against AIDS in Africa. The chief witness was Randall Tobias, Bush's global AIDS coordinator.


Washington, 14 April 2005 (RFE/RL) -- Tobias began his testimony with a positive report on the status of the AIDS initiative. He said the program has tripled the number of people receiving treatment for HIV/AIDS in most of Africa.

"At the time President Bush announced the emergency plan in January of 2003, an estimated 50,000 people were all that were receiving anti-retroviral [anti-HIV] therapy in all of sub-Saharan Africa," Tobias said. "In the first eight months of the emergency plan, we supported treatment for about 155,000 HIV-infected adults and children in the focus nations."

But some in the hearing room did not see the Bush initiative as the best way to fight AIDS. They included a small group of protesters who briefly held up signs and chanted slogans like "Marriage is not a vaccine. Abstinence only is just a dream."

The protesters were referring to the core of the anti-AIDS program, which relies on what the Bush administration calls ABC -- an acronym for "abstinence, be faithful, and use condoms."

There's your protect your wife, Silicon!

The ABC program is good as far as it goes, Gupta said, but it doesn't go far enough.

She told the committee that the ABC approach needs to be expanded: "The increase in women's HIV infections should serve as a wake-up call to alter the current U.S. approach to AIDS prevention, treatment, and care, to expand it beyond the ABC approach to what I call an 'ABC Plus' approach that includes investments in programs to increase the age of marriage; provide services to allow women as well as their spouses to be safe within marriage; reduce violence against women; and assure women's ownership and control of economic assets such as land and housing."

Sounds to me like Bush isn't the only one trying to push their own moral agenda on others.

In the face of the criticisms and suggestions, Tobias said the best approach might simply be to share the responsibility. He noted that the United States is spending more in the fight against HIV/AIDS than all other countries combined.

Perhaps the world will start winning the war, Tobias said, when other countries make as strong a commitment as Bush and the U.S. Congress.

http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2005/04/99857697-8ea6-409b-b618-8322498297e1.html
 
AWPrime said:
Luciana, for education to be effective, wouldn't the 'manhood' culture need to change first?

No, I don't think so. Domestic violence, for example, is higher in the most impoverished families, and diminishes as income increases. I wish I had a link now, but anyway, in the researches I've read about, even though cultural aspects affected those numbers (in some regions of the country the macho culture is much more prevalent than in others), the main factor was still income. And as I said before, low income/low level of education are too intertwined, and I don't believe you can get scientifically sound data separating both, at least as long as you're talking about the development of public policies.

Also, remember that in Latin America you're dealing with Western values, even if old-fashioned depending on the region. Rape, for example, will be considered despicable by the society in general. I'm afraid that's not entirely true in Africa.

The Brazilian government pays the most impoverished families to keep their kids at school. That is meant to prevent child labor. After much debate, researches, bickering, whining and cries of a foul play, the government decided to give the money to the mother. It's a pittance, but when you're close to starving, that empowers women to a degree that no social worker could predict. With that money, women wear the pants on the house. And researches indicated that with this money they're more likely to buy food for themselves and the children (as opposed to buying booze or disappearing with the money), improve living conditions, etc. Better yet, they're less likely to accept physical abuse, and they feel so independent, that they get divorced!

Oh, the monthly fee is about 30 reais, or 12 dollars. It should be only enough to prevent child labor and keep the child at school, it obviously is not an incentive to having more children.

I strongly believe that, by increasing the general level of education of a population, "macho" culture is doomed to die.
 
Question for anyone. Say you have a teenage son. There is a naked woman laying before him. She's gorgeous. She wants him. She's calling to him to bang her brains out. Over and over and over. Nice face. Nice body. And full-blown AIDS, crawling with disease, but your son doesn't know that. He's ready to pounce. His blood is up. What course of action would you recommend your son take? Condom or abstain? What do you wish you had told him?
 

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