Continuation Part 11: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[griffinmill]

griffinmill,

You wrote, "So do you not question that Bongiorno didn't ask for them [the EDFs] in front of Nencini?" Perhaps you missed message #78, which quotes a comment from Mach back in continuation thread 6. Mach assures us that she did ask for them

Not sure what to make of your link. What is known, absolutely, is that Bongiorno didn't raise the issues of EDF's or "raw data" in front of Nencini during her final address to the court.

If the defense, as this website contends, believed such crucial exonerating evidence was being withheld, I would imagine her final statement would rail against that injustice. Instead, she doesn't mention it even one time.

 

[anglolawyer]

I never checked, never investigated the issue. I don't know. I only presume that, if there was a cover entry to place bugs, there must have been an authorization. I would see it as something normal. I would need evidence in order to state it was illegal.

These things, when they occur, are subject to controls and safeguards and tend to be revealed in the ensuing criminal process. Completely and permanently covert trespass belongs to the world of espionage, not criminal investigation.

The prosecution presented evidence about computer activity knowing its own operatives had interacted with the MacBook pro but withholding that fact from the court and the defence which only found out when Raffaele's expert got to look at it a long time later. The laptop is a key part of his alibi and the overall timeline so the possibility that it had been tampered with before its formal seizure on 6th November ought to have been disclosed to ensure the defendants a fair trial.

Let us recall the 'extraordinarily accurate' Curatolo (per Galati) testified to their presence in the piazza at 9.28 precisely. At 9.26 Naruto was started on the laptop, which makes Curatolo not as precise as Galati thought and suggests Raffaele, at least, was at home at that time and probably for some time afterwards (unless we are to think he started Naruto playing as they stepped out the door before sprinting to the square). We don't know what evidence may have been overwritten by some dumb (or not so dumb) cop fooling around but we do know the timing is important enough for Nencini to have dishonestly changed it to 'around 9.20 p.m.' in his motivation.

I will refresh my memory of what the report says and post the relevant extract tomorrow.

 

[Bill Williams]

And if you want to play an "evidence location" game, where is evidence of Rudy Guede in the alleged "break in" room?

I suppose you assume Filomena's room is the crime scene, since if there was an actual break in and attemped burglary, the murderer must have been there.

It is also a room in which Amanda Knox did not live, it's a part of the house where she was not supposed to be, she wouldn't go in that room, exactly like Meredith's room.

So you have a crime scene (Filomena's room) that has no trace, no shoeprints or fingerprints or DNA of Rudy Guede, and should have no DNA trace of Amanda Knox, and neither of Meredith Kercher; but what's there instead? There are luminol stains that yield a mixed DNA trace, Knox + victim.
So we have the crime scene where you have Knox's DNA mixed with Meredith's DNA in the same spot. And what's in this spot? There is a substance that reacts to luminol. There are only few isolated latent luminol stains in that whole apartment. That substance is luminol reactive exactly like the substance that you have on those prints that match Knox's foot in the corridoor in the area of the house between the bathroom and Knox's room, the area around the murder room, and three of those prints are in Knox's room. The luminol substance is information that also relates to Knox and to Meredith, not just their DNA mixed in two spot on the crime scene.

What is incredible here, Machiavelli, is that you've just acquitted both Amanda and Rudy.

The real difference is that Judge Nencini says that the condition of Filomena's room matched Rudy's known M.O. So you are picking and choosing what you wish to believe from Judge Nencini.

And you are pressing the reset button on the issue of luminol, a presumptive test.

You also de facto admit that there is not evidence of Amanda in that room.

I am so glad you continue to post.

 

[Bill Williams]

But why must be there be a specific piece of evidence of Amanda Knox that must be located inside the murder room? You ask for something that is completely unnecessary. This "locating" a piece of evidence from a specific person inside a room makes no sense. Evidence is a logical concept, it is not an object located within a small space.

I'm speechless. This is why I would not waste 8 seconds of my life arguing with you. It's blatantly obvious to me that you have an agenda and it has nothing to do with the truth.

This.

I sincerely hope that people who are undecided read Machiavelli's posts.

 

[Bill Williams]

What Mach does here is heroic. I cannot imagine anyone wasting time fighting with 15 people who have perfected a gymnastics of the facts, but he does it, and I'm grateful to read it.

Heroic?

But why must be there be a specific piece of evidence of Amanda Knox that must be located inside the murder room? You ask for something that is completely unnecessary. This "locating" a piece of evidence from a specific person inside a room makes no sense. Evidence is a logical concept, it is not an object located within a small space.

This is "heroic"? This is the very definition of gymnastics!

 

[Dan O.]

Thanks DANO, much appreciated. But I am certain Napoleone states that Guede was familiar to the police from burglaries in Perugia before the Kercher murder. I'll try to dig it out, but would be great if someone knows what I'm referring to and has it handy-

Her testimoni reads like she is only familiar with Rudy's prior exploits from what was gathered after the fact.


Did you miss this part from my last post?

Answer - Well, it was found Certainly the DNA of Rudy Guede That was in the pillow under the victim​

What DNA sample from the pillow could she be referring to?

 

[Desert Fox]

You have a grossly contaminated scene on the other side of the house from the murder room with no connection between the two. Here's a reminder of how the Polizia Scientifica trashed that place and tore it apart when they were done with the only forensic investigation with any merit whatsoever. It is laughable to pretend that scene has any forensic integrity left to it.

Peter Gill's book is just the start, this 'investigation' will go down as an example for posterity of how not to do forensic work, the DNA guys just got published first. Do not be terribly surprised if a few years from now they're showing these pictures at Quantico complete with a laugh track.

I was looking at a layout of Meredeth's room (actually of the whole floor) and looking at the original pictures of the crime scene, it does not look like much is disturbed.

The Bed is about 40 pixels long. If we consider the bed to be about 2 meters long, the open space where the attack took place is only about 1.5 x 2.0 yet multiple people (more than the perpetrator and victim) are suppose to be involved yet nothing appears to have been disturbed.

Edit: I just checked and the average length of a single bed is 1.9 meters (Ikea 2.0 meters) x 0.9 meters so should be approximately what I estimate.

 

[Numbers]

Napoleone's testimony is in the transcript for 2009-01-28. I found this bit or interest:

Answer - Well, it was found Certainly the DNA of Rudy Guede That was in the pillow under the victim in the paper toilet with feces in the bathroom and in the vaginal swab but I do not know if it was in any case they call chromosome DNA y I'm not a biologist, I can not report on this.​

ETA: Napoleone's testimony here says it is a continuation from the previous day 2009-02-27. But the transcript for that date only has Profazio and Chiacchiera... Begining at 9:45 am and ending with the president declaring suspension to 9am the next day.

This highlighted text is important. Do we know if she means a handprint, blood stain, or the putative semen stain? My guess is that they have avoided saying they've tested the semen stain in testimony. (And maybe they really didn't test it.}

 

[Dan O.]

I was looking at a layout of Meredeth's room (actually of the whole floor) and looking at the original pictures of the crime scene, it does not look like much is disturbed.

The Bed is about 40 pixels long. If we consider the bed to be about 2 meters long, the open space where the attack took place is only about 1.5 x 2.0 yet multiple people (more than the perpetrator and victim) are suppose to be involved yet nothing appears to have been disturbed.

Edit: I just checked and the average length of a single bed is 1.9 meters (Ikea 2.0 meters) x 0.9 meters so should be approximately what I estimate.

Somewhere I have a 3D model of the bed scaled to the known size of the floor tiles as measured with the forensic markers.

The mattress is slightly askew on the bed frame and the night table has been jarred. But nothing else seems to be displaced.

 

[Desert Fox]

Somewhere I have a 3D model of the bed scaled to the known size of the floor tiles as measured with the forensic markers.

The mattress is slightly askew on the bed frame and the night table has been jarred. But nothing else seems to be displaced.

Why I used the term "appears", still does not seem what you would expect from a room where three people attacked a woman in a small bedroom. The crime argues for a single attacker.

 

[Samson]

This.

I sincerely hope that people who are undecided read Machiavelli's posts.

They will. I decided before your post to refer Machiavelli's comments about the evidence in the murder room to some one I know who says, convince me of innocence.

 

[Planigale]

But why must be there be a specific piece of evidence of Amanda Knox that must be located inside the murder room? You ask for something that is completely unnecessary. This "locating" a piece of evidence from a specific person inside a room makes no sense. Evidence is a logical concept, it is not an object located within a small space.

Machiavelli is right here.

1) The murderer must have been present in the flat.
2) The only persons identified from STR typing from samples taken from the flat were MK, Guede, Knox and Sollecito.*
3) It is a judicial fact that Guede in participation with others murdered MK.
4) There are identified shoe prints in fresh blood of MK attributable to Guede.

From the above facts the assumption can be made that any unidentified shoe or footprints must be attributable to either Knox or Guede.

The fact that the police print experts incompetently identified Guede's shoe prints as being attributable to Sollecito should be ignored and any conclusions they come to about other prints should be accepted as being the definitive opinion. The fact that there are no identifiable features in most prints should not affect the ability to attribute them to a particular individual. (I wonder if they do that with fingerprints in Italy? This smudge with no identifiable ridges on the candlestick is attributable to Colonel Mustard since his fingerprints were near by in his own house so Colonel Mustard in the parlour with the candlestick.)

* These were the only reference samples taken, so these were the only persons who could be identified. Samples of unknown individuals that were found were ignored.

 

[Samson]

Machiavelli is right here.

1) The murderer must have been present in the flat.
2) The only persons identified from STR typing from samples taken from the flat were MK, Guede, Knox and Sollecito.*
3) It is a judicial fact that Guede in participation with others murdered MK.
4) There are identified shoe prints in fresh blood of MK attributable to Guede.

From the above facts the assumption can be made that any unidentified shoe or footprints must be attributable to either Knox or Guede.

The fact that the police print experts incompetently identified Guede's shoe prints as being attributable to Sollecito should be ignored and any conclusions they come to about other prints should be accepted as being the definitive opinion. The fact that there are no identifiable features in most prints should not affect the ability to attribute them to a particular individual. (I wonder if they do that with fingerprints in Italy? This smudge with no identifiable ridges on the candlestick is attributable to Colonel Mustard since his fingerprints were near by in his own house so Colonel Mustard in the parlour with the candlestick.)

* These were the only reference samples taken, so these were the only persons who could be identified. Samples of unknown individuals that were found were ignored.

Ah Cluedo, what a great parlour game, I like that your generation know it.

 

[anglolawyer]

The defence computer consultant's report says this, on p7

It does not mention a sure access activity to the computer owned by Raffaele Sollecito, the browsing of a web page, occurred on November 5, 2007, while he was under interrogation.

and on p.26 this:

While Raffaele Sollecito was under interrogation, there was with certainty an access activity to the computer under examination. This activity is proven both by the ENCASE files produced for the Postal Police expert report and by the windowserver.log file recording the activities on the keyboard, and also by the log files of the Internet provider.
Sure enough, the keyboard, which previously deactivated at 4.34 pm on November 5, 2007, suddenly reactivated at 10.04 pm, going again into standby mode at 10.14 pm
Nov 05 16:34:46 [57] Hot ket operating mode is now all disabled
Nov 05 22:04:28 [57] “loginwindow” (0x57cf) set hot key operating mode to normal Nov 05 22:04:28 [57] Hot key operating mode is now normal
Nov 05 22:14:38 [57] “loginwindow (0x57cf) set hot key operating mode to all disabled
Nov 05 22:14:38 [57] Hot key operating mode is now all disabled
Nov 06 10:17:04 [57] “loginwindow” (0x57cf) set hot key operating mode to normal
not to get activated again until the next morning, at 10.17.04 on November 6, 2007, when the laptop was seized.

 

[MichaelB]

Not sure what to make of your link. What is known, absolutely, is that Bongiorno didn't raise the issues of EDF's or "raw data" in front of Nencini during her final address to the court.

If the defense, as this website contends, believed such crucial exonerating evidence was being withheld, I would imagine her final statement would rail against that injustice. Instead, she doesn't mention it even one time.

How do you know she didn't? There's no transcripts for her closing arguments.

All of this is covered in the 2010 and 2014 appeal documents btw.

 

[Annella]

From an Italian journalist...


" AMANDA AND RAFFAELE, SEVEN YEARS OF INJUSTICE

The 2nd November 2007 was a clear bright day like today. Amanda Knox was twenty years old and was happy, while she crossed Piazza Grimana square and arrived at via della Pergola, in Perugia. She had left her new boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito, sleeping in bed in the small apartment on Corso Garibaldi and was returning to the little isolated villa that she shared with her friends Meredith, Filomena and Laura. The young American girl from Seattle, in Italy for just a little more than one month, didn’t know that from that moment she would soon enter into a dark tunnel of horror, made up of blood, absurd accusations, bogus evidence, violence, psychological pressure, deception, mass media lynching, years of imprisonment, conviction, acquittal and then conviction again. She didn’t imagine that the poor, oblivious Raffaele was about to end up with her in that deadly grip.

The recounting by the mass media of the court proceedings for the murder of poor Meredith Kercher and the convictions of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito is an embarrassment for Italian justice and is a black page for the Italian and English newspapers. Rarely in a civilized country has one seen so many errors, so much bullying, abuse, so many lies communicated to the media and published without a minimum of critical corroboration. Two normal kids were depicted as despicable people, condemned in the media, trapped by inexistent evidence and thrown in prison for four years like murderers. Only a courageous verdict delivered in 2011 by Judge Hellmann allowed the two unfortunates to leave prison, but their ordeal was not over. With a new, paradoxical decision, in which they unduly entered into the merits of the case, the Supreme Court annulled the acquittal in 2013. And indeed it ordered a new conviction, challenging all logic, which was promptly provided by the Assize Court of Appeal of Florence in January of this year.

In the meantime, the real, sole murderer of Meredith, Rudy Guede, saw his conviction reduced from thirty to only sixteen years of imprisonment, thanks to his accusations against Amanda Knox, the real victim of this abhorrent witch hunt. And thanks to his opportunistic legal choices, he could leave prison already this year.

Italy has one last chance to close with dignity this small despicable story. The Supreme Court will decide next March 25th. The outlook is not at all good, it’s useless to hide it. It’s clear that the truth about Meredith Kercher’s death is of very little importance. Everyone knows that it was only Rudy Guede that murdered her. All that counts is the reputation of the lousy investigators and many journalists, who abandoned their duty towards critique and truth to obtain a few miserable and slanderous scoops. But above all else, at this point there is a whole system at stake, that has chosen to protect itself and the careers of police, judges and journalists. If they continue to ignore the awful error made, convicting Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito for a murder which they are not responsible for, the system will perhaps save itself, but the life of two innocents will be sacrificed. If they will have the courage to admit the error, perhaps it will be necessary to apologize, but we will have shown, despite everything, to still be a civilized country."

 

[anglolawyer]

Indeed, Annella, it really is as simple as that.

 

[Samson]

From an Italian journalist...


" AMANDA AND RAFFAELE, SEVEN YEARS OF INJUSTICE

The 2nd November 2007 was a clear bright day like today. Amanda Knox was twenty years old and was happy, while she crossed Piazza Grimana square and arrived at via della Pergola, in Perugia. She had left her new boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito, sleeping in bed in the small apartment on Corso Garibaldi and was returning to the little isolated villa that she shared with her friends Meredith, Filomena and Laura. The young American girl from Seattle, in Italy for just a little more than one month, didn’t know that from that moment she would soon enter into a dark tunnel of horror, made up of blood, absurd accusations, bogus evidence, violence, psychological pressure, deception, mass media lynching, years of imprisonment, conviction, acquittal and then conviction again. She didn’t imagine that the poor, oblivious Raffaele was about to end up with her in that deadly grip.

The recounting by the mass media of the court proceedings for the murder of poor Meredith Kercher and the convictions of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito is an embarrassment for Italian justice and is a black page for the Italian and English newspapers. Rarely in a civilized country has one seen so many errors, so much bullying, abuse, so many lies communicated to the media and published without a minimum of critical corroboration. Two normal kids were depicted as despicable people, condemned in the media, trapped by inexistent evidence and thrown in prison for four years like murderers. Only a courageous verdict delivered in 2011 by Judge Hellmann allowed the two unfortunates to leave prison, but their ordeal was not over. With a new, paradoxical decision, in which they unduly entered into the merits of the case, the Supreme Court annulled the acquittal in 2013. And indeed it ordered a new conviction, challenging all logic, which was promptly provided by the Assize Court of Appeal of Florence in January of this year.

In the meantime, the real, sole murderer of Meredith, Rudy Guede, saw his conviction reduced from thirty to only sixteen years of imprisonment, thanks to his accusations against Amanda Knox, the real victim of this abhorrent witch hunt. And thanks to his opportunistic legal choices, he could leave prison already this year.

Italy has one last chance to close with dignity this small despicable story. The Supreme Court will decide next March 25th. The outlook is not at all good, it’s useless to hide it. It’s clear that the truth about Meredith Kercher’s death is of very little importance. Everyone knows that it was only Rudy Guede that murdered her. All that counts is the reputation of the lousy investigators and many journalists, who abandoned their duty towards critique and truth to obtain a few miserable and slanderous scoops. But above all else, at this point there is a whole system at stake, that has chosen to protect itself and the careers of police, judges and journalists. If they continue to ignore the awful error made, convicting Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito for a murder which they are not responsible for, the system will perhaps save itself, but the life of two innocents will be sacrificed. If they will have the courage to admit the error, perhaps it will be necessary to apologize, but we will have shown, despite everything, to still be a civilized country."

Annella, eternal shame on the Kercher family for their participation in this out rage.

 

[MichaelB]

Thanks DANO, much appreciated. But I am certain Napoleone states that Guede was familiar to the police from burglaries in Perugia before the Kercher murder. I'll try to dig it out, but would be great if someone knows what I'm referring to and has it handy-

This might be what you read?

p23

Q: Listen when you had identified him from the palm prints of the hand did you then do some checks to see who he was, not just where he lived, but if he worked, if he had a criminal record, checks of this type?
A: Obviously we went to his house to search it once he had been identified, therefore of course we identified him and we did other checks, all of it to see if he had… He didn’t have a criminal record, but run-ins with the law, in other words he had been investigated without arrest for other offenses.
Q: For what?
A: For theft I believe, burglary, things of that nature.

 

[Desert Fox]

From an Italian journalist...


" AMANDA AND RAFFAELE, SEVEN YEARS OF INJUSTICE

The 2nd November 2007 was a clear bright day like today. Amanda Knox was twenty years old and was happy, while she crossed Piazza Grimana square and arrived at via della Pergola, in Perugia. She had left her new boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito, sleeping in bed in the small apartment on Corso Garibaldi and was returning to the little isolated villa that she shared with her friends Meredith, Filomena and Laura. The young American girl from Seattle, in Italy for just a little more than one month, didn’t know that from that moment she would soon enter into a dark tunnel of horror, made up of blood, absurd accusations, bogus evidence, violence, psychological pressure, deception, mass media lynching, years of imprisonment, conviction, acquittal and then conviction again. She didn’t imagine that the poor, oblivious Raffaele was about to end up with her in that deadly grip.

The recounting by the mass media of the court proceedings for the murder of poor Meredith Kercher and the convictions of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito is an embarrassment for Italian justice and is a black page for the Italian and English newspapers. Rarely in a civilized country has one seen so many errors, so much bullying, abuse, so many lies communicated to the media and published without a minimum of critical corroboration. Two normal kids were depicted as despicable people, condemned in the media, trapped by inexistent evidence and thrown in prison for four years like murderers. Only a courageous verdict delivered in 2011 by Judge Hellmann allowed the two unfortunates to leave prison, but their ordeal was not over. With a new, paradoxical decision, in which they unduly entered into the merits of the case, the Supreme Court annulled the acquittal in 2013. And indeed it ordered a new conviction, challenging all logic, which was promptly provided by the Assize Court of Appeal of Florence in January of this year.

In the meantime, the real, sole murderer of Meredith, Rudy Guede, saw his conviction reduced from thirty to only sixteen years of imprisonment, thanks to his accusations against Amanda Knox, the real victim of this abhorrent witch hunt. And thanks to his opportunistic legal choices, he could leave prison already this year.

Italy has one last chance to close with dignity this small despicable story. The Supreme Court will decide next March 25th. The outlook is not at all good, it’s useless to hide it. It’s clear that the truth about Meredith Kercher’s death is of very little importance. Everyone knows that it was only Rudy Guede that murdered her. All that counts is the reputation of the lousy investigators and many journalists, who abandoned their duty towards critique and truth to obtain a few miserable and slanderous scoops. But above all else, at this point there is a whole system at stake, that has chosen to protect itself and the careers of police, judges and journalists. If they continue to ignore the awful error made, convicting Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito for a murder which they are not responsible for, the system will perhaps save itself, but the life of two innocents will be sacrificed. If they will have the courage to admit the error, perhaps it will be necessary to apologize, but we will have shown, despite everything, to still be a civilized country."

I am American. I am often accused of only supporting Amanda because she is an American while it happened in Italy. I often also am accused of supporting her because she is cute as well.

It is good though when you see Italian people who get the issue and that it is two innocent people convicted of a crime based on no evidence. . . . And are willing to speak on it.