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Continuation Part 10: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Not quite, both TMB and luminol are presumptive tests for blood, there supposedly weren't any confirmatory tests done. You're right the argument over sensitivity is essentially bogus though, the negative TMB tests show that either it wasn't blood or was blood in such low amounts it wasn't related to the murder which produced all sorts of fresh pure blood that TMB would have no problem picking up.

Luminol is notorious for its false positives so when it's sprayed the protocol is to check it with another presumptive test before taking a bunch of samples back to the lab for confirmatory blood testing and DNA analysis. Instead Stefanoni ignored the negative TMBs, hid them, and produced the luminol hits in court as blood and pretended it was 'too risky' to test further because of the 'risk' of a false negative. Note that this is a natural chemical reaction, if blood is present then TMB turns color, if it doesn't then it's not blood--or the blood is so old or in such scarce amounts it wouldn't even have been visible as such in the substance (like water) where it was found. So either it wasn't blood or it was water that got a drop of blood in it from menstruation, a cut or even from the murder that someone else tracked around.
I then go back to the Massei motivations report in 2010 which, unlike the Nencini motivations report of 2014, at least had the decency to include exculpatory discussion, even though Massei ignored it all on nothing else but Stefanoni's say so.

Stefanoni testified at the Massei trial that there were four methods of potential contamination at the crime scene - albeit that Massei took Stefanoni at her word that none of the four actually did contaminate the scene - with no evidence either way.

The one about "someone else tracked" around was Stefanoni's admission that the Medical Team which came in to confirm Meredith's death and do the preliminary on-site medical exam, did not wear any protective gear.

I have quoted these four things ad nauseum - things in Massei's report - and folk just proceed as if Massei had not mentioned them at all.

The important thing to note is that Massei denied all independent testing, and simply took Stefanoni at her word that contamination did not happen, even though she (and he) were honest enough to put on the record the very ways in which contamination probably did happen.
 
It just got better

Oh well. Perhaps it never happened (like the 'no alibi' press conf.)

Now you will have to excuse me for a moment. halides1 and Bill are discussing sciency stuff & if I give it my full concentration I may learn something.
Hopefully they will discourse on the EDF’s and the Nencini 'Y- haplotype' thingy.

I’m here to learn !



My humblest apologies K – You are also involved.

Goody :)
 
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Close enough for government work? Very cheeky platonov. Is this what they say in the former Soviet Republics after they wrongly convict someone of a crime? "We may have gotten ir wrong, but at least we did something?"

That's a phrase I often use, my father worked for the federal government after twenty years working for the government in another capacity.

Incidentally what I think Platonov was getting at with the turnip juice was that was one of the substances most easily mistaken for pure blood with luminol because it will glow brighter like (pure) blood does. However since blood diluted below the threshold for TMB detection doesn't react nearly as robustly with luminol that's irrelevant and why I more simply and accurately called it a false dichotomy.

According to what I came across they overexposed those photos about three times and it appears they may have photoshopped them as well. I have no idea if that would be sufficient to make blood diluted below the TMB threshold to glow as pretty as they do in those photos, but I do know that if it wasn't enough to account for that intensity then it wasn't blood because they're too bright, and if they did alter them sufficiently then all the other things that luminol gives a fainter reaction to are no longer dismissible as possibilities like Comodi was trying to pretend with her turnip (or fruit) juice remark.
 
The Ersatz Napoleon of Perugia

I believe that this is strongly relevant to the condition of the Italian criminal justice system today, and that therefore by extension it's relevant to the Knox/Sollecito trials.

I'd go even further than this though. My take on "epoch transition" government is that although the head of the serpent is cut off (Hitler, Mussolini, Saddam...) and the overarching political philosophy may change, it usually takes an incredibly long time for the long civil service arms of government to change. Partly this is out of necessity and a desire to maintain public order: the US saw in Iraq that you can't just sack the entire police force without chaos and disorder ensuing, and that's even more of an issue when it comes to criminal justice. It's incredibly dangerous (from a public order and public confidence point of view) to tell the people that vasts amounts of things which were illegal yesterday are legal today, and vice versa. Instead, even with a total will for change, things must happen slowly and gradually in order to make a smooth transition to a new philosophy.

However, as your quote illustrates well, there's often a fundamental barrier to change inasmuch as the people responsible for day-to-day administration of government (in this case the judges, prosecutors and police) are very often a) reactionary by nature, and b) philosophically wedded to a greater or lesser extent in the old system. So these two factors, combined with the underlying natural inertia, mean that old habits and philosophies can die very hard indeed.

And that's exactly what I believe we're seeing in the Knox/Sollecito trials. I think that most of the judges, prosecutors and police involved in this case have unlawfully reverted to past, defunct legislation (now overwritten and discredited) in order to ensnare Knox and Sollecito. Furthermore, I think the Supreme Court has failed spectacularly so far in its sovereign duty to uphold the law as it is written today. My observation is that the SC is possibly in the thrall of reactionary bigots with quasi-fascist leanings, who have established - unchecked thus far - a system where they can dictate law to the lower courts in a way that is not enshrined in legislation.

Just wanted to reiterate that I believe this conversation about Italian courts and the background in which the Knox/Sollecito false convictions occurred, is very close to the heart of the matter.

Again, its fascinating how the guilter's show up on cue to distract the conversation.

The case was always about Giuliano Mignin, without that deranged madman clinging to false coerced confused statements, and rushing to foist himself in front of the international media and deflect attention away from his own imploding career, there never would have been a trial for Amanda and Raf.

But many of the phrases that have come up discussing this historical thread are intriguing; reactionary, reverting to local customs, napoleonic code, inquisitorial versus adversarial trials, reluctance of the court functionaries to change with the new laws, and so much more.

Mignini himself has written two articles which touch on these themes. Here's a link to one of them:

http://www.alleanzacattolica.org/idis_dpf/voci/v_viva_maria.htm

Google translate is the best I have, but Mignini describes a local Italian uprising against Napoleon's armies in Italy in the vicinity of Perugia.

Mignini describes the "counter-revolutionary"'s war cry, "Viva Maria", and the appearance of 'actual miracles' at the time; weeping madonna statues and the like. It's not written like a mere objective historian, Mignini seems to hope to convey to the reader that the miracles are genuine.

He also provides explanations as to why the local citizens revolted in the first place: they correctly hated having the foreigners ways imposed on the locals, whose tradition of all powerful city-states, where local authorities ruled their cities, answering only to the papal authorities. Public officials like Mignini were justifiably petit tyrants onto themselves, in the good old days.

Mignini also describes the brief victories of the rebels, and the 'most beautiful page of history' written by the rebels as they fight on in the face of certain defeat, and as their enemies, "take their revenge".

You can see the whole tragedy of Mignini's persecution of Amanda and Raf justified in his writings. No one should have any cause to believe that Giuliano Mignini is not a legitimate madman, a paranoid, a sadist, a power mad narcissist; an unscrupulous madman who first invents his lies, and then believes them wholeheartedly, attacking anyone who challenges his delirium.

The irony that the Napoleonic code, is the antiquated inquisitorial system Mignini defends, while vilifying both Napoleon for imposing the code originally, and then modernizers for attempting to reform the code in his own life time.

We don't really have a character type for Mignini, he is well past the hypocrite, well past the madman. A vile contemptible coward who merits the same sentence he sought to impose on Amanda Knox. Or maybe not. Maybe Mignini should be treated with kindness, once he has been safely shut away in a secure sanitarium.

But he really does see himself as a kind of Napoleon. Here is a picture of Mignini at the Kercher crime scene on DAY ONE:

Remind you of anyone?
 
Close enough for government work ;)

Close enough for government work? Very cheeky platonov. Is this what they say in the former Soviet Republics after they wrongly convict someone of a crime? "We may have gotten ir wrong, but at least we did something?"
 
That's a phrase I often use, my father worked for the federal government after twenty years working for the government in another capacity.

My father used the same expression a lot as well. That said, I doubt he would ever use it in conjunction with murder verdict.

Incidentally what I think Platonov was getting at with the turnip juice was that was one of the substances most easily mistaken for pure blood with luminol because it will glow brighter like (pure) blood does. However since blood diluted below the threshold for TMB detection doesn't react nearly as robustly with luminol that's irrelevant and why I more simply and accurately called it a false dichotomy.

According to what I came across they overexposed those photos about three times and it appears they may have photoshopped them as well. I have no idea if that would be sufficient to make blood diluted below the TMB threshold to glow as pretty as they do in those photos, but I do know that if it wasn't enough to account for that intensity then it wasn't blood because they're too bright, and if they did alter them sufficiently then all the other things that luminol gives a fainter reaction to are no longer dismissible as possibilities like Comodi was trying to pretend with her turnip (or fruit) juice remark.

I don't think you can tell anything from the photos. So much in photography has to do with the settings on the camera...etc.
 
According to what I came across they overexposed those photos about three times and it appears they may have photoshopped them as well. I have no idea if that would be sufficient to make blood diluted below the TMB threshold to glow as pretty as they do in those photos, but I do know that if it wasn't enough to account for that intensity then it wasn't blood because they're too bright, and if they did alter them sufficiently then all the other things that luminol gives a fainter reaction to are no longer dismissible as possibilities like Comodi was trying to pretend with her turnip (or fruit) juice remark.



The first is definitely correct, and the second is highly likely.

With regard to potential inferences, one only has to look at the photos to see that there's something very wrong about them. The sheer presence of luminescent "misting" effects all over the frame is very troubling, and points strongly towards accidental or deliberate mishandling/misinterpretation (I lean towards "deliberate").

This is what properly-exposed photos of properly-applied on hard flooring look like:

Here's the "before" - note that zero visible blood is present:




And here's the "after" - note the clear and strong luminescence with minimal artifacts, showing clear presence of blood or another oxidising agent on the floor that has been cleaned up:




ETA Link to case in question: http://murderpedia.org/male.T/t/twitchell-mark-photos-2.htm
 
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Guys, guys, guys please. I know you are trying hard but .........
Stick with the sciency stuff – it’s a lot funnier.

Trust me – I’m a white )ish( guy

Very well then, tell me what you think of this, especially the highlighted part:


"QUESTION - Here I wanted to ask about it if it was found to be blood stains, if it was blood?
ANSWER - Then it was not possible, it is presumably because the blood test is a test of the luminol practically orientation, a test is not specific for the substance in blood but of course also reacts with the substance in blood
Q. - Let's talk about floor room Romanelli then those spots, then analyzed those tracks were highlighted with luminol?
ANSWER - Yes, those tracks there, yes.
Q. - In what has been done so in a unique environment ...
/ REPLY - Those on the floor.
Q. - Let's talk about just inside the room Romanelli, eh, not on the floor?
ANSWER - No, no, I can look for a moment?
QUESTION - Yes, of course ..
ANSWER - I want to be precise but I think ... because I have to refer to the description of the tracks. So, yes, the 176 in the record that the inspection was named as L1.
QUESTION - Yes, highlighted by luminol technique, accurate, and then there is also 177.
ANSWER - Yes, 177, 180 and 183, are the only traces highlighted by Luminol and found in it which gave a result from the point of view of the genetic profile.
QUESTION - Ok! So then they gave result D.N.A. Meredith Kercher?
ANSWER - Yes, the 176.
QUESTION - Perfect! And for what concerns the verification if it were or less of blood? ANSWER - You can not do it because the luminol, in fact, as I said before is a reactive chemical that reacts with various substances not only with blood, it reacts with some detergents day everyday ... QUESTION - Yes, yes, we know, we have also seen in the observations of the consultants of Defense in connection with the ... ANSWER - Yes. And it was, say, also highlighted by the tests carried out in our laboratories; that a determination can then track sampled in the laboratory, and highlighted the luminol, to determine whether or not the nature of blood, practically it is very risky because, being the trace of luminol by definition a track completely invisible to the naked eye so small, if it were a trace of blood would still be a blood trail that I would draw attention to the luminol - because the eye does not see it - so it's such an amount so small that I, despite being able to analyze, however, the track with a test that will show me whether or not the nature of blood, I would risk to get false negatives that is a test ...QUESTION - I understand, I understand, I'm fine!
ANSWER - Ok, enough!
APPLICATION - The last question is in order to, if she had chaired and participated in the operations of the luminol to visit this track as it was interpreted in the floor of Filomena Romanelli's room, if you can say it, a track that laboratories where she lends his activities reported in shoe print, bare foot or something that can not be determined?
ANSWER - I can look at the inspection report because I do not remember by heart.
QUESTION - No, no, then we just need the content of the inspection report!"


Does that read like good science to you?
 
The first is definitely correct, and the second is highly likely.

With regard to potential inferences, one only has to look at the photos to see that there's something very wrong about them. The sheer presence of luminescent "misting" effects all over the frame is very troubling, and points strongly towards accidental or deliberate mishandling/misinterpretation (I lean towards "deliberate").

This is what properly-exposed photos of properly-applied on hard flooring look like:

Here's the "before" - note that zero visible blood is present:

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_40237545040082cb69.jpg[/qimg]


And here's the "after" - note the clear and strong luminescence with minimal artifacts, showing clear presence of blood or another oxidising agent on the floor that has been cleaned up:

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_402375450405210fb5.jpg[/qimg]


ETA Link to case in question: http://murderpedia.org/male.T/t/twitchell-mark-photos-2.htm

Dan O. in a post back several pages stated that the image files supplied were actually labeled as Photoshopped, file dated 1 day after camera exposure.
 
The first is definitely correct, and the second is highly likely.

With regard to potential inferences, one only has to look at the photos to see that there's something very wrong about them. The sheer presence of luminescent "misting" effects all over the frame is very troubling, and points strongly towards accidental or deliberate mishandling/misinterpretation (I lean towards "deliberate").

This is what properly-exposed photos of properly-applied on hard flooring look like:

Here's the "before" - note that zero visible blood is present:

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_40237545040082cb69.jpg[/qimg]


And here's the "after" - note the clear and strong luminescence with minimal artifacts, showing clear presence of blood or another oxidising agent on the floor that has been cleaned up:

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_402375450405210fb5.jpg[/qimg]


ETA Link to case in question: http://murderpedia.org/male.T/t/twitchell-mark-photos-2.htm

Thanks LJ! Do you know if it's possible to prove whether or not those pictures were inappropriately altered? I know next to nothing about photography and those programs.
 
Thanks LJ! Do you know if it's possible to prove whether or not those pictures were inappropriately altered? I know next to nothing about photography and those programs.


The ones I posted or the Kercher-related ones?
 
The ones I posted or the Kercher-related ones?

The Kercher ones. One thing that's always struck me as odd are the specks of apparent luminescence in inexplicable locations on some of those pics, what could have caused that?
 
The Kercher ones. One thing that's always struck me as odd are the specks of apparent luminescence in inexplicable locations on some of those pics, what could have caused that?

One that I saw had specks of luminescence on the ruler they used, set on the floor to provide a sense of perspective.

What had been on that ruler to make it react?
 
The Kercher ones. One thing that's always struck me as odd are the specks of apparent luminescence in inexplicable locations on some of those pics, what could have caused that?


I totally agree on the odd and incongruous specks of luminescence (that's what I was referring to as "mist" in my earlier post).

I know for sure that many of these photos have the exposure settings documented (can't remember whether it's in the metadata or simply written below them) - i.e. aperture setting, speed setting and equivalent film ASA. I also know for sure that the exposures work out at 2-3 times the recommended exposure settings for Luminol photos.

It's late here and I'm turning in. If I have some time tomorrow, I'll seek out the appropriate info. And regarding photoshop, it's hard to tell visually just how much the contrast and brightness might have been digitally altered, but they very accreditation of "Photoshop" raised large red flags.

Of course a competent, open police department would have supplied all the source data, including full disclosure of any digital alterations..........
 
Very well then, tell me what you think of this, especially the highlighted part:


"QUESTION - Here I wanted to ask about it if it was found to be blood stains, if it was blood?
ANSWER - Then it was not possible, it is presumably because the blood test is a test of the luminol practically orientation, a test is not specific for the substance in blood but of course also reacts with the substance in blood
Q. - Let's talk about floor room Romanelli then those spots, then analyzed those tracks were highlighted with luminol?
ANSWER - Yes, those tracks there, yes.
Q. - In what has been done so in a unique environment ...
/ REPLY - Those on the floor.
Q. - Let's talk about just inside the room Romanelli, eh, not on the floor?
ANSWER - No, no, I can look for a moment?
QUESTION - Yes, of course ..
ANSWER - I want to be precise but I think ... because I have to refer to the description of the tracks. So, yes, the 176 in the record that the inspection was named as L1.
QUESTION - Yes, highlighted by luminol technique, accurate, and then there is also 177.
ANSWER - Yes, 177, 180 and 183, are the only traces highlighted by Luminol and found in it which gave a result from the point of view of the genetic profile.
QUESTION - Ok! So then they gave result D.N.A. Meredith Kercher?
ANSWER - Yes, the 176.
QUESTION - Perfect! And for what concerns the verification if it were or less of blood? ANSWER - You can not do it because the luminol, in fact, as I said before is a reactive chemical that reacts with various substances not only with blood, it reacts with some detergents day everyday ... QUESTION - Yes, yes, we know, we have also seen in the observations of the consultants of Defense in connection with the ... ANSWER - Yes. And it was, say, also highlighted by the tests carried out in our laboratories; that a determination can then track sampled in the laboratory, and highlighted the luminol, to determine whether or not the nature of blood, practically it is very risky because, being the trace of luminol by definition a track completely invisible to the naked eye so small, if it were a trace of blood would still be a blood trail that I would draw attention to the luminol - because the eye does not see it - so it's such an amount so small that I, despite being able to analyze, however, the track with a test that will show me whether or not the nature of blood, I would risk to get false negatives that is a test ...QUESTION - I understand, I understand, I'm fine!
ANSWER - Ok, enough!
APPLICATION - The last question is in order to, if she had chaired and participated in the operations of the luminol to visit this track as it was interpreted in the floor of Filomena Romanelli's room, if you can say it, a track that laboratories where she lends his activities reported in shoe print, bare foot or something that can not be determined?
ANSWER - I can look at the inspection report because I do not remember by heart.
QUESTION - No, no, then we just need the content of the inspection report!"


Does that read like good science to you?

I interpret the google translation to mean that Stefanoni claims not to have tested the luminol prints with a confirmatory blood test because she fears it may return a "false" negative. This testimony I presume must have come before she was caught (because she had to show lab records to the defense?) having indeed used a second presumptive test, TMB, which actually was negative for blood (no color change). Information posted here from credible sources by Chris H and others indicates TMB and luminol have about the same sensitivity to blood in the field but differ in selectivity to non-blood false positives. So the CL of the alleged AK footprints are not blood.
 
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One that I saw had specks of luminescence on the ruler they used, set on the floor to provide a sense of perspective.

What had been on that ruler to make it react?


And on one or more of the photos, one can also see specks/misting on the upper surface of one of the forensics goon's white protective booties.

Could it be that one of the forensics morons was aspirating misted blood down onto the top of his booties and onto that ruler?? :rolleyes:
 
One that I saw had specks of luminescence on the ruler they used, set on the floor to provide a sense of perspective.

What had been on that ruler to make it react?

Exactly, and how did they manage to apply luminol to the ruler and not realize it?
 
I interpret the google translation to mean that Stefanoni claims not to have tested the luminol prints with a confirmatory blood test because she fears it may return a "false" negative. This testimony I presume must have come before she was caught (because she had to show lab records to the defense?) having indeed used a second presumptive test, TMB, which actually was negative for blood (no color change). Information posted here from credible sources by Chris H and others indicates TMB and luminol have about the same sensitivity to blood in the field but differ in selectivity to non-blood false positives. So the CL of the alleged AK footprints are not blood.

Yes, according to what Machiavelli (who first posted it) said this was from something previous to the Massei trial, thus before the revelations of July 30, 2009. Another thing that struck me outside what Machiavelli was claiming about it was that she has no concern about the possibility of a false positive for blood, which she acknowledges, but maintains the possibility of a false negative should preclude her even attempting further tests!
 
I totally agree on the odd and incongruous specks of luminescence (that's what I was referring to as "mist" in my earlier post).

I know for sure that many of these photos have the exposure settings documented (can't remember whether it's in the metadata or simply written below them) - i.e. aperture setting, speed setting and equivalent film ASA. I also know for sure that the exposures work out at 2-3 times the recommended exposure settings for Luminol photos.

It's late here and I'm turning in. If I have some time tomorrow, I'll seek out the appropriate info. And regarding photoshop, it's hard to tell visually just how much the contrast and brightness might have been digitally altered, but they very accreditation of "Photoshop" raised large red flags.

Of course a competent, open police department would have supplied all the source data, including full disclosure of any digital alterations..........


Thank you, I'm totally at sea in this discussion.

Regarding the latter...heh...I suppose that could turn out to be the case.

But then again it might not!
 
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