• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Texas bans abortion.

Status
Not open for further replies.
Lol, yeah. But Dallas has a few hospitals that are not religiously affiliated and further, there are still abortion clinics open there.
There are 4 non-religiously affiliated hospitals within 10 miles of her. She is a partner at one of them and I don't see them revoking her privileges for that. I'd have to double-check the bylaws to be sure, but there's nothing in the partnership agreement that would bar her from having privileges while being an abortionist. A huge group of OB-GYNs are also partners (and a large contingent of FPs who do OB) and if they all decided to open an abortion clinic, I don't think the hospital would stop them. But I know most of them personally and the ones I know well would not perform abortions. One even refuses to refer out.

Dallas is one of the biggest cities in the state and yet only four hospitals near your wife are non-religious. I imagine some of the others, such as Children's, rely heavily on local contributions and may have some similar stance against abortions to protect that revenue stream. So, we agree that a doctor who is doing abortions in Dallas is limiting their access to many very good hospitals in town.

Take that practice out to Lubbock or Tyler and see how possible it is to stay in the doctor business while also providing abortions. It is more than just a moral decision, it is a financial decision. A very difficult financial decision for most. The law just increased the financial difficulty for doctors.
 
There is no compelling reason to kill newborns. Besides, unlike fetuses prior to viability they are autonomous and self aware.
Misspoke. They are not entirely dependent on any single person.
 
<snip!> If different communities have different constructs, that should be up to them to set.

Like burning the flag as a form of protest? Texas should be able to legislate against that, right? If there's anything that "the community" reviles (more than abortion) it would probably be burning the Stars 'n Stripes.

In 1984, in front of the Dallas City Hall, Gregory Lee Johnson burned an American flag as a means of protest against Reagan administration policies. Johnson was tried and convicted under a Texas law outlawing flag desecration. He was sentenced to one year in jail and assessed a $2,000 fine. After the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals reversed the conviction, the case went to the Supreme Court...In a 5-to-4 decision, the Court held that Johnson's burning of a flag was protected expression under the First Amendment. Link

Constitutional rights are absolute pardner. You don't have to like them but you do have to respect them. Community standards have nothing to do with it.
 
  1. You are the one that places importance in potential and a full compliment of genes. Sperm and egg in a petri dish have the potential to become a human being. You are not being morally consistent.
  2. Might The body can abort the fetus at any time. There is nothing special about having a brain and heart. All mammals and many other animals have that.
  3. That's not true at all. A skin cell can become something else.
  4. It's called reason by analogy. That something has the parts and potential to be something doesn't make it that thing.
  5. There is no compelling reason to kill newborns. Besides, unlike fetuses prior to viability they are autonomous and self aware.
  6. It's critical to this discussion. What we deem as human is memories, self awareness, plans for the future, the ability to suffer.
  7. (see car example) Just because the see a pile of parts and call it a car doesn't make it a cr.
  8. Viability and the capability to suffer and be aware of existence at least a rudimentary level. There is no precise moment (see Xenus paradox).
  9. Memories, self awareness, the ability to feel pain, the ability to suffer, the ability to plan for the future, the instinct to survive.
  10. Viability, self awareness, the ability to feel pain, the ability to suffer.

What youdeem as human is memories, etc. You keep making that fundamental mistake. The people of Texas disagree with you. You cannot objectively prove that you are right anymore than I can. We are making philosophical arguments.

And we probably aren't even that far apart. It seems from the above that you would tend to draw a line around the 22-24 week area (correct me if I'm wrong). I could probably live with that if that's what my State decided. My overriding point isn't to try to convince anyone that my line is the correct line. I'm only arguing that there is no correct line and so it has to be an arbitrary line based on philosophical distinctions. And those can be different in different jurisdictions.
 
Like burning the flag as a form of protest? Texas should be able to legislate against that, right? If there's anything that "the community" reviles (more than abortion) it would probably be burning the Stars 'n Stripes.



Constitutional rights are absolute pardner. You don't have to like them but you do have to respect them. Community standards have nothing to do with it.

That is very different. Burning a flag doesn't harm anyone. It might offend people, but who cares about that.

Making terroristic threats is not protected by free speech on the other hand. Neither is inciting a riot. Free speech is not absolute.
 
That is very different. <snip>

If SCOTUS had UPHELD Texas' new abortion law I might agree with you. But a federal court invalidated it and SCOTUS upheld the lower court.

For pages you've been insisting "the community" should have the right to enforce its standards. Obviously if it's community standards vs. Constitutional rights the latter is going to prevail. You can argue all you like. The irony here is, while this thread has been going on the law you have been defending was overturned by a federal court. It's a moot point.

Have a great day! :)
 
What youdeem as human is memories, etc. You keep making that fundamental mistake. The people of Texas disagree with you. You cannot objectively prove that you are right anymore than I can.
So long as you allow that sperm and ovum are human beings. People once argued that blacks are not the same species as other humans. Either difference matter or they don't. Human beings are self aware creatures that can plan for the future. Fetuses are not. We protect being that are moral agents. We extend this right to all living breathing humans unless they are in a persistent vegetative state for a reason.

We are making philosophical arguments.
One could philosophically argue that chimps are human. They have more in common with human beings than a fetus. They have form and function that humans do and that fetuses do not have.

My overriding point isn't to try to convince anyone that my line is the correct line. I'm only arguing that there is no correct line and so it has to be an arbitrary line based on philosophical distinctions. And those can be different in different jurisdictions.
If and when there is a scientific basis for a fetus to be a human being then sperm and ovum are deserving of protection from the people who place an arbitrary line at conception. I have provided an objective and scientific basis for defining a human being. People can believe whatever they like but they have no rational basis for doing so.
 
Dallas is one of the biggest cities in the state and yet only four hospitals near your wife are non-religious. I imagine some of the others, such as Children's, rely heavily on local contributions and may have some similar stance against abortions to protect that revenue stream. So, we agree that a doctor who is doing abortions in Dallas is limiting their access to many very good hospitals in town.

Take that practice out to Lubbock or Tyler and see how possible it is to stay in the doctor business while also providing abortions. It is more than just a moral decision, it is a financial decision. A very difficult financial decision for most. The law just increased the financial difficulty for doctors.

And how many of the hospitals is saving the life of a woman with an abortion a firing offence?

link

Clearly the moral and ethical response is to let the slut die. After all it was a catholic hospital and you can't force them to do an abortion.
 
1That's a whole 'nother ethical argument. But this particular argument isn't about what may or may not be theoretically possible. A skin cell, in it's natural state, will never be anything other than a skin cell.
  1. You are the one that places importance in potential and a full compliment of genes. Sperm and egg in a petri dish have the potential to become a human being. You are not being morally consistent.

You are both diploidist scum! Just sayin'!
 
And how many of the hospitals is saving the life of a woman with an abortion a firing offence?

link

Clearly the moral and ethical response is to let the slut die. After all it was a catholic hospital and you can't force them to do an abortion.

Not just firing, excommunicating. By their standards they have condemned her to eternity in hell. Wow, that is some cool morals there.
 
What youdeem as human is memories, etc. You keep making that fundamental mistake. The people of Texas disagree with you. You cannot objectively prove that you are right anymore than I can. We are making philosophical arguments.

And we probably aren't even that far apart. It seems from the above that you would tend to draw a line around the 22-24 week area (correct me if I'm wrong). I could probably live with that if that's what my State decided. My overriding point isn't to try to convince anyone that my line is the correct line. I'm only arguing that there is no correct line and so it has to be an arbitrary line based on philosophical distinctions. And those can be different in different jurisdictions.

Another approach to the discussion, besides the pointless argument whether the word "human" includes fetuses or skin cells, is that laws against abortion are inconsistent with the view that people own their bodies, in so far that there is no other circumstance where one person is entitled to the blood, organs, and body of another person.

This is true despite kinship: no laws compels a parent to donate bone marrow, by virtue of being their parent.

And true despite medical need: no laws compel a parent to donate bone marrow, even if their child's life depended on it.

And true despite cause: no law compels a parent to donate their body parts to their child, even if that parents action or inaction (e.g. abuse, accident, genetic disorder) were the reason for their child needing some body part in the first place.

And true despite duration: no law compels a parent to donate a kidney to their child, even on the condition that they will get the kidney back in 9 months or so.

And true despite someone already using your body: if you woke up and discovered another person were hooked up to your body, using you as living dialysis machine, no law compels you to remain hooked together without your permission.

But laws against abortion, which grant unborn children (but not born children) a right to use their mothers blood and organs without her consent, do not make sense in a moral or legal framework where my bodily autonomy takes precedence over whatever life-saving-or-otherwise advantage another may gain by using it.

That's a problem and it needs to be addressed.

Pro-choicers address the problem by conceding that laws against abortion are not consistent with every other accepted norm concerning people using others blood and organs.

Pro-lifers fall back on the view that pregnancy be treated differently, which is special pleading. They might dispute this on the basis that removing a fetus is fatal and infringes on the fetuses bodily integrity; but pro-lifers do not carry that view over to born persons, as there is almost never a circumstance where they argue that mothers ought to be compelled to give up their blood and organs to their born children. We're right back to special pleading again.
 
Another approach to the discussion, besides the pointless argument whether the word "human" includes fetuses or skin cells, ...
I think your argument is compelling.

However, my argument is not pointless. Also, let's be clear, the term isn't "human", it's "human being". By definition a human being is one that has the form and function of, and I quote Encyclopedia Britannica, "a culture-bearing primate that is anatomically similar and related to the other great apes but is distinguished by a more highly developed brain and a resultant capacity for articulate speech and abstract reasoning."

By definition a fetus prior to viability is not a human being.
 
Last edited:
I'm guessing legal.

ETA: I think the best way to deal with these Texas laws on abortion clinics is to donate a bunch of money to outfits like Planned Parenthood so that they can pay for the upgrades now required by the law.

It isn't always upgrades, but things like have admission privileges to local hospitals in case anything goes wrong.

Most of the local hospitals will not give admission privileges to the doctors who are performing abortions for numerous reasons, sometimes it is because the hospital has a religious link, sometimes it is because the doctor performing abortions is not a local doctor (a number of doctors will travel to abortion clinics from out of state), the hospital does not want to be associated with abortions............

This is basically what has shut down most of the abortion clinics in Texas, and it is coming to a state near you soon.

The irony is that abortion is a very safe procedure, especially as it is performed in 98% of the cases (before 12 weeks etc), and if there were any complications, an ambulance would be telephoned, the doctor would not need to admit the patient.

It is a legal maneuver to ban abortions.
 
Another approach to the discussion, besides the pointless argument whether the word "human" includes fetuses or skin cells, is that laws against abortion are inconsistent with the view that people own their bodies, in so far that there is no other circumstance where one person is entitled to the blood, organs, and body of another person.
<snip>
Pro-choicers address the problem by conceding that laws against abortion are not consistent with every other accepted norm concerning people using others blood and organs.
Pro-lifers fall back on the view that pregnancy be treated differently, which is special pleading.

This is a great argument: A woman's right to control her own body. I think this is the argument the Supreme Court essentially agreed to in Roe v. Wade. A woman's right to privacy, to decide to terminate her pregnancy if she desires, involves a fundamental right.
 
Even if you think a zygote is a human being, I don't think that settles things. There are great gaping chasms of need out there right now. We don't need to manufacture more unwanted children. I'm glad I never had to make this choice and I hope that in Texas the "morning after pill" (which is not the abortion pill) remains available over the counter to anyone who asks.

If Texans want more children perhaps they could adopt some of the Central Americans who have shown up recently.
 
Not just firing, excommunicating. By their standards they have condemned her to eternity in hell. Wow, that is some cool morals there.

Look sometimes the only things for good people to do is watch people suffer and die despite their ability to save them. Explains why people think Mother Teresa was a good person.
 
Another approach to the discussion, besides the pointless argument whether the word "human" includes fetuses or skin cells, is that laws against abortion are inconsistent with the view that people own their bodies, in so far that there is no other circumstance where one person is entitled to the blood, organs, and body of another person. <snip>
But a child is always entitled to the care of their parents. When the child is born, that care comes in the form of feeding, changing diapers, visiting the doctor, etc. When the child is unborn, that care comes in the form of dependence on the body of the mother.

Thus, we still have the problem of drawing a line. For you, effectively, the line of personhood is, "when the child is no longer physically attached to the mother." If we instead draw the line at viability, then we can simply argue that the mother owes the child a duty of care at that point.

But laws against abortion, which grant unborn children (but not born children) a right to use their mothers blood and organs without her consent, do not make sense in a moral or legal framework where my bodily autonomy takes precedence over whatever life-saving-or-otherwise advantage another may gain by using it.
Unborn children require care that is different from born children. If you grant that a fetus can be considered a child, then you only need to recognize that a mother does have a duty to care for her child.
That's a problem and it needs to be addressed.

Pro-choicers address the problem by conceding that laws against abortion are not consistent with every other accepted norm concerning people using others blood and organs.

Pro-lifers fall back on the view that pregnancy be treated differently, which is special pleading.
It's only special pleading if such pleading can't be justified. You can't just say, "God!" But given that unborn children require a different kind of care than born children, we have plenty of precedent for parents having a duty of care.

Consider the case of men. We jail men -take away all their rights, freedoms and control of their body- for not paying child support. They have absolutely no choice in the matter. If they engage in sex with a woman, there is always the possibility that they will be faced with a legal and financial burden they don't want. We don't give men the option of aborting this duty at any point in the pregnancy. Thus, I don't find arguments that women should get a special right to terminate a parental duty very compelling. We do control the bodies of men who don't meet this unwanted duty, thus, imposing a lesser degree of control on the woman's body (allowing the fetus to grow) seems appropriate.
They might dispute this on the basis that removing a fetus is fatal and infringes on the fetuses bodily integrity; but pro-lifers do not carry that view over to born persons, as there is almost never a circumstance where they argue that mothers ought to be compelled to give up their blood and organs to their born children. We're right back to special pleading again.
First of all, let's be clear: the mother is not actually giving up her blood and organs. The fetus has their own. The baby is attached to the mother by the placenta where nutrients and oxygen are supplied from the mother's uterus. If a situation arose where the pregnancy was a threat to the mother's body, then abortion would be legal and medically appropriate.

Finally, I think that the parental duty to provide care supersedes the mother's right to control of her body. This is as true after the baby is born as it is before; the only difference is the type of care required to meet that duty.
 
But a child is always entitled to the care of their parents. When the child is born, that care comes in the form of feeding, changing diapers, visiting the doctor, etc. When the child is unborn, that care comes in the form of dependence on the body of the mother.

Thus, we still have the problem of drawing a line. For you, effectively, the line of personhood is, "when the child is no longer physically attached to the mother." If we instead draw the line at viability, then we can simply argue that the mother owes the child a duty of care at that point.
Looks like you're rebutting an argument I didn't make. You changed my argument from the serious problem of principles regarding bodily autonomy being inconsistent with pro-life philosophy, to something about line-drawing. I'm not going to address arguments against views I did not state nor hold in the first place.

Unborn children require care that is different from born children. If you grant that a fetus can be considered a child, then you only need to recognize that a mother does have a duty to care for her child.
It's only special pleading if such pleading can't be justified. You can't just say, "God!" But given that unborn children require a different kind of care than born children, we have plenty of precedent for parents having a duty of care.
You need a strong argument explaining how a duty to care logically implies that strangers can use your blood and organs without your permission.

Consider the case of men. We jail men -take away all their rights, freedoms and control of their body- for not paying child support. They have absolutely no choice in the matter. If they engage in sex with a woman, there is always the possibility that they will be faced with a legal and financial burden they don't want. We don't give men the option of aborting this duty at any point in the pregnancy. Thus, I don't find arguments that women should get a special right to terminate a parental duty very compelling. We do control the bodies of men who don't meet this unwanted duty, thus, imposing a lesser degree of control on the woman's body (allowing the fetus to grow) seems appropriate.
A duty to care for one's child is one possible basis for demanding child support, but the profound unfairness of placing an enormous burden on one parent to meet all the needs of their child may be another reason for child support. Neither reason appears to sufficiently connect the statement "people have a duty to care for their children" to "one person's medical needs takes precedence over another person's bodily autonomy", as family courts do not and cannot legally compel fathers to donate kidneys and bone marrow to their children regardless of medical need. This only makes sense in an ethical framework where my bodily autonomy takes precedence over whatever life-saving advantage another might gain from my blood and organs.

cosmicaug's post below summarizes this point more succinctly.

First of all, let's be clear: the mother is not actually giving up her blood and organs. The fetus has their own. The baby is attached to the mother by the placenta where nutrients and oxygen are supplied from the mother's uterus. Finally, I think that the parental duty to provide care supersedes the mother's right to control of her body.
Errm, yes, the mother is giving up her organs to a person which is literally attached to her placenta, her blood supply, her cardiovascular system, who resides in her body and cannot removed before birth without surgery.

And that's a problem. Pro-lifers do not accept the implications of a view which says another person's medical need for blood and organs supercedes the consensual use your blood and organs. Not even the most ardent pro-lifer would argue that a parent be legally compelled to donate organs and bone marrow to their born children -- even though that scenario is a logical consequence of their view, it's the exact same demand they make regarding unborn children.

Pro-lifers cannot avoid that consequence without completely contradicting their philosophy which says that their is not meaningful moral difference between born and unborn children, only their location in relation to their mother. If an unborn child's medical needs allows it to use it's mother's blood and organs without mother's permission, then that principle logically carries over to born child whose medical needs allow it to use mother's blood and organs without her permission. Ergo, a moral duty forcing mothers to give up their organs, blood, and bone marrow to meet a born child's medical needs.

If pro-lifers accept this dystopian consequence, it would be consistent within their own ethical framework.

But they often do not accept that consequence. They behave as if a mother's duty to give up their blood and organs to meet their child's medical needs is logically dependent on the location of the fetus. So moral consideration of a child's right-to-life and right to life-saving blood and organs is conditionally dependent on their location relative to their mother, making birth a change in location and moral consideration.

I am honestly trying to see how pro-life principles tie together into a coherent ethic, but it's just a frustrating experience. Their principles neatly explain why a stranger can make claims on another person's blood and organs without their permission, but do not address the moral rats nest of implications that follow.
 
Last edited:
Unborn children require care that is different from born children. If you grant that a fetus can be considered a child, then you only need to recognize that a mother does have a duty to care for her child.

This does not affect the original argument made in any way. They specifically mentioned bone marrow donation. In the case of of bone marrow donation being needed, the required care is a bone marrow donation. This (much less a kidney) cannot legally compelled.

So apparently there are duties which might be compelled and duties (involving bodily integrity) which cannot be compelled (except, according to you, when the fetus has not been born --a period during which the duty to be an incubator supersedes all else).

As for pregnancy being a threat to the woman's body, it's a matter of degree. Despite propaganda to the contrary, usually, when adequate medical care is involved, abortion is the safer choice for the woman.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom