Continuation Part 10: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[anglolawyer]

You mean upstairs.

Maybe the crime scene video does capture such blood spots and we don't know it. Maybe they are on the floor somewhere, or maybe on the pillow, on the sheet or on the purse. Maybe they are mixed in with big smears of Kercher blood and so not discernible.

But I say at some point he was holding something or wrapped his hand with something, otherwise we would see some blood in the hallway or outside. He let that thing go at some point when he got downstairs and that's when the blood starts up again.

FWIW, I cut my hand with a knife a couple of years ago and even though it wasn't that deep, they still had to put a turniquette on it when I got to the hospital about 45 minutes later. In fact, hospitals have a special thing called a finger turniquette, which is kind of like a rolled up condom without a dead end. Because, you know, fingers can bleed a lot.

Yes, I mean upstairs. Why was he bothered about leaving blood spots upstairs but not downstairs? He did a lot of things upstairs: investigating handbags, locking doors and such, all with his finger turniquette on, but he took it off downstairs. How come?

We have film enough of the floor in the hall and the bathroom to spot any spots and there aren't any, just faded shoe prints.

I demand a second opinion on hand cuts.

 

[Diocletus]

I looked at the picture of the fabric article (object) under several different conditions of computer screen backlighting and angle. At the top left of the object I perceived two short legs separated by an inward bay of fabric which I interpreted to be the crotch of underwear briefs. Therefore, I believe that this object is indeed underwear briefs, or less likely, a pillow case cleverly fabricated to look like underwear briefs, perhaps as a fashion statement.

Wow. I see that crotch. Very interesting.

 

[Diocletus]

Yes, I mean upstairs. Why was he bothered about leaving blood spots upstairs but not downstairs? He did a lot of things upstairs: investigating handbags, locking doors and such, all with his finger turniquette on, but he took it off downstairs. How come?

Because he was washing his stuff in the shower.

Now I get to ask a question: how come all of the footage that would show the downstairs blood spots is edited out of the Nov. 2 CSV?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

What actually happened

Meaning, for Meredith i want vengeance, as a father, stupidly, and for Amanda, Rudy and Raffaele i want things to stop, as a father.

Eric,

Your earlier comment implied that pro-innocence commenters were applying two sets of standards to the evidence, one for Rudy and one for Amanda and Raffaele. At least we now know where you stand. If you can debunk the evidence against Rudy using similar arguments to those that the PI commenters use, or if you can provide a self-consistent narrative/timeline for what you think happened (one that does not contradict well-established facts), I would be interested in what you have to say.

 

[anglolawyer]

Because he was washing his stuff in the shower.

Now I get to ask a question: how come all of the footage that would show the downstairs blood spots is edited out of the Nov. 2 CSV?

You don't get to ask a question until your theory hangs together. You may however, make observations that support your theory. Your answer about washing in the shower does not assist. For your theory to work he had to be bleeding from his hands a lot and for a long time but, when upstairs, where he did a lot of manual things that might have required freedom of movement, with a bandage of some kind but downstairs without one.

I have seen CSV showing a trail of blood spots leading down (or up) the stone steps from the upper apartment to the lower. How come they didn't blot those out? How come they did not make the photographs you are now analysing disappear? Evidence was given about cat blood. Just the other day I read a snippet of Stefanoni about how that cat drove them nuts. The defence teams seem to be in on the conspiracy too because, as far as I recall, no part of the defence cases majored on the mysterious happenings downstairs. Were the downstairs occupants quizzed at trial about the state of the place? Did they say clothes had been stolen, for instance?

Another thing, if Rudy was so cool that he had time to check out downstairs (with the keys he dutifully returned to the entrance upstairs?) why didn't he spare a minute to look in Amanda's desk drawer where he would have found 300 euros? Some (I am not among them) think he retrieved the lamp from her room. How long would it take to open and check out a drawer? No time at all. But going downstairs and fumbling about there, leaving spots of blood everywhere to identify himself, would take time and incur more risk.

 

[lonepinealex]

My major issue with Rudy and the downstairs shenanigans is that he never mentions going there in his statements (not even the un-coached Skype chat). The statements in which he is so careful to give reasons for all the evidence he's left upstairs. Was he coached not to mention it? Why?

 

[js202]

My major issue with Rudy and the downstairs shenanigans is that he never mentions going there in his statements (not even the un-coached Skype chat). The statements in which he is so careful to give reasons for all the evidence he's left upstairs. Was he coached not to mention it? Why?

Actually, I think it was RWVBWL who has referenced Guede testimony several times wherein he alludes to "noises he heard" downstairs as the scene was going down on the women's floor. This could be interpreted to account for his own activity down there by ascribing it to some other dude...

But, with all due respect to Diocletus, I'm with anglolawyer in that I don't think a fully cogent theory has yet been constructed as to what happened in the boys' flat.

 

[Diocletus]

I have seen CSV showing a trail of blood spots leading down (or up) the stone steps from the upper apartment to the lower. How come they didn't blot those out? How come they did not make the photographs you are now analysing disappear? Evidence was given about cat blood. Just the other day I read a snippet of Stefanoni about how that cat drove them nuts.

You are talking about the Nov. 3 CSV and pictures. The Nov. 2 one shows the window getting kicked in and the pot plants, but appears to be edited to remove any footage of the places where the blood shows up on the Nov. 3 CSV. Why?

You may recall that Stefanoni's explanation for all of this was that after the broke the window, the cat must have cut itself on the glass (because, you know, cats are clumsy like that), spurted big drops of blood in a couple of places and jumped up to the lightswitch to deposit some blood, which BTW is not indicated to be cat blood. Luckily, this gaping wound quickly healed itself or we would have had a kitty murder investigation.

If you don't like that answer, there is also a backup story. At some time before the boys left, the cat had a wound on its ear which they didn't know to be bleeding, but hey, if Amanda can bleed out of a hickey who knows about the cat. It liked to rub itself on soft stuff, like underwear, I guess. Also, the boys like to splat insects on the walls near lightswitches.

If we had complete footage of Nov. 2, we could verify or put the lie to what Stefanoni says. I suspect it's a big lie. And, if she's lying about that, then her report, where she indicates cat's blood for 18 samples, and describes a pair of bloody underwear as a "pillow," is a lie. And, if those are lies, well, then I think we're seeing a crime.

 

[Diocletus]

You don't get to ask a question until your theory hangs together. You may however, make observations that support your theory. Your answer about washing in the shower does not assist. For your theory to work he had to be bleeding from his hands a lot and for a long time but, when upstairs, where he did a lot of manual things that might have required freedom of movement, with a bandage of some kind but downstairs without one.

Hey, at least I found the blood from his fingers. Where do you think it is?

 

[lonepinealex]

Actually, I think it was RWVBWL who has referenced Guede testimony several times wherein he alludes to "noises he heard" downstairs as the scene was going down on the women's floor. This could be interpreted to account for his own activity down there by ascribing it to some other dude...

That's true, and he couldn't very well pretend someone let him in there, as he did re: upstairs. But surely he would expect the forensics to reveal the lie?

 

[Diocletus]

Another thing, if Rudy was so cool that he had time to check out downstairs (with the keys he dutifully returned to the entrance upstairs?) why didn't he spare a minute to look in Amanda's desk drawer where he would have found 300 euros? Some (I am not among them) think he retrieved the lamp from her room. How long would it take to open and check out a drawer? No time at all. But going downstairs and fumbling about there, leaving spots of blood everywhere to identify himself, would take time and incur more risk.

He wasn't cool. He went downstairs quickly, washed some stuff, and got out of Dodge.

He didn't return the keys, remember? They were stolen.

 

[Diocletus]

That's true, and he couldn't very well pretend someone let him in there, as he did re: upstairs. But surely he would expect the forensics to reveal the lie?

No. By the time he was arrested, the cops had already said never mind about downstairs, must have been the cat.

 

[anglolawyer]

He wasn't cool. He went downstairs quickly, washed some stuff, and got out of Dodge.

He didn't return the keys, remember? They were stolen.

What about the boys' keys? He seems to have returned those (or am I caught in crossfire between Dan O and MichaelB on that?) The other day you were asking about a missing half hour. That's a long time to be hanging around. Do you think he spent half an hour downstairs?

 

[js202]

What about the boys' keys? He seems to have returned those (or am I caught in crossfire between Dan O and MichaelB on that?) The other day you were asking about a missing half hour. That's a long time to be hanging around. Do you think he spent half an hour downstairs?

I think the discussion was around a missing portion of crime scene video tape, wasn't it? Meaning there was a time lapse in the TC from ILE's taped evidence that goes unaccounted for, and presumably this could be something they quashed from downstairs...

 

[Diocletus]

What about the boys' keys? He seems to have returned those (or am I caught in crossfire between Dan O and MichaelB on that?) The other day you were asking about a missing half hour. That's a long time to be hanging around. Do you think he spent half an hour downstairs?

Could have. My time frame goes something like this:

9:00-9:15 attack/sexual assault
9:15-9:20 wash shoe, steal $ and keys
9:20-9:40 downstairs cool off, wash up, get new pants
9:40-10:00 go outside, get rid of knife and bloody clothes bundle
10:00-10:15 screw around with and get rid of phones

 

[js202]

That's true, and he couldn't very well pretend someone let him in there, as he did re: upstairs. But surely he would expect the forensics to reveal the lie?

Yes, good point. But the guy is an idiot and not properly squared away in the head, and one can presume he was setting himself up, if necessary, to lie about the downstairs as avidly and preposterously as he lied about the goings-on upstairs.

At the end of the day, circumstances conspired so that Guede could either remain slippery, as he was in the Skype conversation with Giacomo and in his trial testimony, or Sphinx-like, as he was grotesquely allowed to be in the Hellmann court.

 

[Dan O.]

Where were they found exactly? Had they been hidden? I mean, the case is almost about keys. It's certainly about access to the upper apartment.

That's the sort of question a prosecutor would ask.

QUESTION - Do you remember what was kidnapped in Amanda's room ?
REPLY - Honestly ...
PRESIDENT - You can look at the record .
ANSWER - Yes, there was a diary, a camera, a computer. The only thing , here , now comes to my mind , entrance into the hall we found the keys the apartment downstairs .
PROSECUTOR - DR. MIGNINI - Where in particular?ANSWER - If I'm not mistaken on the left as you enter , were attached .
QUESTION - Attach to the wall?
ANSWER - Yes, I think so , there in the hall, were in availability of all in substance. Then other things, but what they kidnapped colleagues ...
​

This says that there was a record of what was acquired from the cottage that day. We just have not seen it.

But this is strange. I was just looking over Mauro's testimony and he says Barbadori was assigned to Filomena's room that day so why is Mignini asking him about objects taken from Amanda's room?! Did nobody review the script before they made this play?

 

[codyjuneau]

the crime scene video would show blood spots before the evil cops had time to wipe them up and we would then be able to compare.

You mean upstairs.

Maybe the crime scene video does capture such blood spots and we don't know it. Maybe they are on the floor somewhere, or maybe on the pillow, on the sheet or on the purse. Maybe they are mixed in with big smears of Kercher blood and so not discernible.

But I say at some point he was holding something or wrapped his hand with something, otherwise we would see some blood in the hallway or outside. He let that thing go at some point when he got downstairs and that's when the blood starts up again.

FWIW, I cut my hand with a knife a couple of years ago and even though it wasn't that deep, they still had to put a turniquette on it when I got to the hospital about 45 minutes later. In fact, hospitals have a special thing called a finger turniquette, which is kind of like a rolled up condom without a dead end. Because, you know, fingers can bleed a lot.

.
I seem to recall the police finding tissue paper with blood on it. Whenever I cut my hand or fingers I always grab some tissue or toilet paper to press on it.

They also found some tissue paper on the road as I recall. Does Rudy's exit story match where that tissue paper was found?

Cody
.

 

[Magister]

What about the boys' keys? He seems to have returned those (or am I caught in crossfire between Dan O and MichaelB on that?)

Good to see a discussion on the downstairs situation.

Didn't Giacomo say he gave Meredith his key or a spare?
It would appear that this key was stolen along with her own keys.
I have asked Amanda whether there was a spare key to downstairs kept in the girls' flat and she replied no, not to her knowledge.

 

[anglolawyer]

Good to see a discussion on the downstairs situation.

Didn't Giacomo say he gave Meredith his key or a spare?
It would appear that this key was stolen along with her own keys.
I have asked Amanda whether there was a spare key to downstairs kept in the girls' flat and she replied no, not to her knowledge.

I understand she had a key, yes. Did she put it on her own key ring (if she had one) or simply leave it somewhere in the house? The evidence discussed above suggests the latter. How would Guede know about this usefully available key? There is no suggestion he broke in.