Continuation Part 10: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[AmyStrange]

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I don't think I used the word "all".

Depends on your methods.
Well most criminal offences in Italy are only prosecuted on a victim's complaint, that often means they are prosecuted privately, and most criminal trials are factually cases of litigation between two parties.

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What methods exactly?

d

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ETA: Thank you for clarifying your original statement about supporters. To me it seemed your were IMPLYING that ALL her supporters are criminal. I stand corrected.

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[Machiavelli]

Could not agree more. Let's start with the notion that Amanda Knox has ever used hard drugs.

I don't have a notion like "hard drugs" at all. Effect of substances depend on amount and degree of abuse. Is alcohol a "hard" drug? Is Ketamine a "hard" drug?

Second, let's recall that the use of any substance is not a crime, and let's say who cares what substances Amanda Knox used to take? It's not the point, not my buisness and I'm not interested in it.
But let's say it's on the record that Amanda Knox had contact with a ring of drug dealers, had several phone contacts and also sexual contacts with them. She attended a small, specific environment in Perugia with its lifestyle. A ring of drug dealers as well as Rudy Guede they all belonged to this very same group, attended same places and same people and spent obviously time together, taking drugs and sharing the same kind of lifestyle.

 

[Machiavelli]

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What methods exactly?

Defamation may consist in making unsupported false assertions about people, like making serious allegations that are not properly supported. Especially if done systematically. For example if I claim Mr. X is guilty of perjury or put forward a satanic theory or is a rougue person etc., with obviously no kind of evidentiary support.
There are also other behaviours fall in the category of criminal and deviant.

 

[Diocletus]

I don't have a notion like "hard drugs" at all. Effect of substances depend on amount and degree of abuse. Is alcohol a "hard" drug? Is Ketamine a "hard" drug?

Second, let's recall that the use of any substance is not a crime, and let's say who cares what substances Amanda Knox used to take? It's not the point, not my buisness and I'm not interested in it.
But let's say it's on the record that Amanda Knox had contact with a ring of drug dealers, had several phone contacts and also sexual contacts with them. She attended a small, specific environment in Perugia with its lifestyle. A ring of drug dealers as well as Rudy Guede they all belonged to this very same group, attended same places and same people and spent obviously time together, taking drugs and sharing the same kind of lifestyle.

It seems obvious that most people in perugia take drugs. Even Nara.

 

[Machiavelli]

What, if anything, does any of this gibberish have to do with the fact that Patrizia Stefanoni was, and presumably remains, an incompetent stooge for the prosecution?

No serious DNA scientist in the world has given their imprimatur to the work Stefanoni did in the Kercher case, neither in terms of collection nor evaluation, whilst numerous have demurred. No unbiased and educated person fails to understand that Sapienza University's Conti and Vecchiotti are Stefanoni's superiors. No unbiased and educated person can watch the collection videos without wincing. (...)

The fact that you say it does not make it become true. Actually serious scientists did agree with Stefanoni's findings.
Conti and Vecchiotti's own records actually speak for themselves (let go Vecchiotti's refrigerator). Look what Vecchiotti & friends did on Olgiata, Cucchi, Ghira, cases, or Claps...
Maybe you missed it btw, meanwhile also the judges who appointed them (Hellmann & Zanetti) happen to be completely discredited.

 

[AmyStrange]

I don't have a notion like "hard drugs" at all. Effect of substances depend on amount and degree of abuse. Is alcohol a "hard" drug? Is Ketamine a "hard" drug?

Second, let's recall that the use of any substance is not a crime, and let's say who cares what substances Amanda Knox used to take? It's not the point, not my buisness and I'm not interested in it.
But let's say it's on the record that Amanda Knox had contact with a ring of drug dealers, had several phone contacts and also sexual contacts with them. She attended a small, specific environment in Perugia with its lifestyle. A ring of drug dealers as well as Rudy Guede they all belonged to this very same group, attended same places and same people and spent obviously time together, taking drugs and sharing the same kind of lifestyle.

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You are correct, at least not here in the US anyway. It's not the USE (unless while driving or while in public, i.e. public drunkeness is illegal in most states) that's illegal, but the POSSESSION of some "controlled" substances that's illegal,

d

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[Machiavelli]

It seems obvious that most people in perugia take drugs. Even Nara.

Probably. And maybe in Seattle too. But most do not abuse.
And most do not attend the Piazza Grimana pushers nor have sex with them.

 

[acbytesla]

In England, you generally only have to worry about losing money and reputation. Still, the US does not generally accept defamation suits from the U.K. Sounds like Italian is far worse and they seem to also work the wrong way.

Defamation and libel suits in the US are extremely hard (but not impossible) to win. The US places a very high value on freedom of speech and of press to the point that a plaintiff must always demonstrate not that the defendant has not only shown a great disregard for the truth but the harm that it created. Also a public person like a judge must demonstrate that there was actual malice toward them, not just what was said was false. So someone like Mignini is probably never going to sue anyone for the criticism that he received.

 

[Machiavelli]

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You are correct, at least not here in the US anyway. It's not the USE (unless while driving or while in public, i.e. public drunkeness is illegal in most states) that's illegal, but the POSSESSION of some "controlled" substances that's illegal,

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Well I am based on Italian law. In Italy not even the possession is illegal, unless above a significant amount, quite beyond the magnitude of personal use, that would be consiedered a "trade" amount. This goes for any substance.

 

[Diocletus]

Maybe you missed it btw, meanwhile also the judges who appointed them (Hellmann & Zanetti) happen to be completely discredited.

How are they "completely discredited"? They convicted on Calunnia and the Supreme Court said that they were wonderful for doing so.

 

[Diocletus]

And most do not attend the Piazza Grimana pushers nor have sex with them.

It seems to me that the person with the most knowledge about these people you mention is Monica napoleoni.

 

[acbytesla]

I don't have a notion like "hard drugs" at all. Effect of substances depend on amount and degree of abuse. Is alcohol a "hard" drug? Is Ketamine a "hard" drug?

Second, let's recall that the use of any substance is not a crime, and let's say who cares what substances Amanda Knox used to take? It's not the point, not my buisness and I'm not interested in it.
But let's say it's on the record that Amanda Knox had contact with a ring of drug dealers, had several phone contacts and also sexual contacts with them. She attended a small, specific environment in Perugia with its lifestyle. A ring of drug dealers as well as Rudy Guede they all belonged to this very same group, attended same places and same people and spent obviously time together, taking drugs and sharing the same kind of lifestyle.

Can you lie any more blatantly? There is NO RECORD of Amanda having phone or sexual contacts with a drug ring. This is NONSENSE and a total fabrication on your part. You should be ashamed for promoting this lie. There are no contacts to Rudy Guede, not a single call, text or email to or from him to either Amanda or Raffaele. As for attending places where drugs are available, that could be said about the entire city of Perugia. This is a college town where you can hardly cross the street without being offered some drugs.

Amanda had been in Perugia all of 42 days leading up to the murder. She spent her time studying, attending a classical music concert, attending a chocolate festival and working at Le Chic. There is absolutely no testimony by anyone that supports the idea that Amanda had used anything harder than cannabis.

 

[AmyStrange]

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Defamation may consist in making unsupported false assertions about people, like making serious allegations that are not properly supported. Especially if done systematically. For example if I claim Mr. X is guilty of perjury or put forward a satanic theory or is a rougue person etc., with obviously no kind of evidentiary support.
There are also other behaviours fall in the category of criminal and deviant.

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While I agree with you to a point, I don't agree that they should ALL be considered as serious as you claim. If it's stated (or even sometimes implied) that it's a fact, then I agree, but not if it's stated as an opinion (rather than stated as a fact), in my opinion anyway.

I think everyone everywhere should be allowed to state their opinion, and at the same time it should be allowed that anyone who disagrees with that opinion, that they be allowed to disagree and ask for their arguements and if none is forthcoming, that they (in turn) be allowed to call that person a nutcase or a liar or whatever, as long as it's just an opinion, but once again that's just my opinion,

d

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[acbytesla]

Probably. And maybe in Seattle too. But most do not abuse.
And most do not attend the Piazza Grimana pushers nor have sex with them.

Neither does Amanda, and she lived almost across the street from the Piazza Grimana, and the college she attended was on the other side of the Piazza She walked past the Piazza every day and the boys that lived on the first floor or her home spent a great deal of time playing basketball at the Piazza Grimana. But there is no record of Amanda having sex with pushers from the Piazza Grimana or buying drugs there either. Are you suggesting that Amanda did? If so, please provide a cite....and not from some tabloid nonsense. Otherwise. SHUT UP.

 

[AmyStrange]

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Well I am based on Italian law. In Italy not even the possession is illegal, unless above a significant amount, quite beyond the magnitude of personal use, that would be consiedered a "trade" amount. This goes for any substance.

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Really? Interesting. I didn't know that. In the US, many states have similar kind of laws. For example, here in Washington, even though marijuana is legal, it's illegal to posses more than an ounce for personal use, but even other states that have decriminalized it, if you have over a certain amount, you can be charged with possesion with intent to sell, which in many cases is a felony.

I learn something new everyday. Thanx Mach,

d

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[Machiavelli]

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While I agree with you to a point, I don't agree that they should ALL be considered as serious as you claim. If it's stated (or even sometimes be implied) that it's a fact, then I agree, but not if it's stated as an opinion (rather than stated as a fact), in my opinion anyway.

I think everyone everywhere should be allowed to state their opinion, and at the same time it should be allowed that anyone who disagrees with that opinion, that they be allowed to disagree and ask for their arguements and if none is forthcoming, that they (in turn) be allowed to call that person a nutcase or a liar or whatever, as long as it's just an opinion, but once again that's just my opinion,

I tend to agree. And this is also the law. There is anyway a difference between behaviours. For example take a person a the position like Chris Halkides, a specialist who published an article declaring "new evidence" "now emerged" proves that Stefanoni "illegally suppressed 100 DNA profiles". This kind of statement is not an opinion, it is a factual report, let's call it a false information campaign.
Or take Doug Preston, who declares (p. 11 of his book) that in Nov. 2007 the police issued a statement saying Meredith's was a ritual murder and Mignini was at the press conference.
In general, I could see several Knox-supporters engaging in a malicious defamation campaign. The degree number and violent intensity of lies directed against is beyond anything that could be considered legal or even intellectually honest.

 

[AmyStrange]

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I tend to agree. And this is also the law. There is anyway a difference between behaviours. For example take a person a the position like Chris Halkides, a specialist who published an article declaring "new evidence" "now emerged" proves that Stefanoni "illegally suppressed 100 DNA profiles". This kind of statement is not an opinion, it is a factual report, let's call it a false information campaign.
Or take Doug Preston, who declares (p. 11 of his book) that in Nov. 2007 the police issued a statement saying Meredith's was a ritual murder and Mignini was at the press conference.
In general, I could see several Knox-supporters engaging in a malicious defamation campaign. The degree number and violent intensity of lies directed against is beyond anything that could be considered legal or even intellectually honest.

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I could use the same arguement against some of the supporters of guilt. It's not just a one way street here. Both sides can be just as bad as the other,

d

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ETA: As far as your claims against Chris, I'd like to see his evidence first before calling his statements disingenuous or criminal or whatever, but I'll let Chris speak for himself there rather than take your word for it, as it should be.

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[codyjuneau]

Nencini also defends Stefanoni against the charge that she used the suspect-centered method of analyzing the bra clasp egrams. This plus his disingenuous comments about her lack of reporting peaks gives some credence to the hypothesis that he and the SCC wish to protect the reputation of the forensic lab. The report by Conti and Vecchiotti could have helped lead Italian forensics forward, a little bit like the Swecker-Wolf report helped straighten out North Carolina's state crime lab. Instead, the SCC and Nencini are helping to guide Italian forensics backward. The Kercher's lawyer Mr. Maresca was once quoted as saying that Italy was showing the world, and the United States, how to do forensics. For the sake of innocent defendants everywhere, I certainly hope not.

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Maresca's statement is quite funny actually. The complex and hi tech computer controlled machines in Stefanoni's lab are designed by experts from many fields to make it simple and easy for lab technicians to perform forensic analysis on samples. Stefanoni merely uses the machines, and does not even do that properly or honestly. She is not a pioneer of anything.

Cody
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[js202]

The fact that you say it does not make it become true. Actually serious scientists did agree with Stefanoni's findings.
Conti and Vecchiotti's own records actually speak for themselves (let go Vecchiotti's refrigerator). Look what Vecchiotti & friends did on Olgiata, Cucchi, Ghira, cases, or Claps...
Maybe you missed it btw, meanwhile also the judges who appointed them (Hellmann & Zanetti) happen to be completely discredited.

Novelli notwithstanding, no disinterested scientists have given their imprimatur to Stefanoni's work. Full stop.

It is lost on no longtime follower of this case that your methodology is to personally attack the professionals who have stated their belief that AK and RS are innocent. This includes calling a certain Italian priest a provincial idiot. And no matter how many Ferrari's the man may or may not own, Pratillo Hellmann's assessment of this case remains the only judge's opinion that is recognizable to citizens of countries of the First World.

I welcome with a glint in my eye your efforts to discredit Dr. Peter Gill; for though I have not seen them, I am sure you've had one chamber of your consciousness humming away on them. Of course it should be remembered that such an assessment would come from an anonymous individual who has written that his judgment of Amanda Knox should be trusted because he once pinned down the character of a Canadian woman visiting Italy because she had odd body odor.

 

[kwill]

I don't have a notion like "hard drugs" at all. Effect of substances depend on amount and degree of abuse. Is alcohol a "hard" drug? Is Ketamine a "hard" drug?

Second, let's recall that the use of any substance is not a crime, and let's say who cares what substances Amanda Knox used to take? It's not the point, not my buisness and I'm not interested in it.

Me neither. But earlier you said this:

I see a clear red line between criticism and unproven wild assertions about people. Those who spread malicious defamatory lies are criminals.

Which led me to believe that you're able to spot an unproven wild assertion when it steps up and says hello.

But let's say it's on the record that Amanda Knox had contact with a ring of drug dealers, had several phone contacts and also sexual contacts with them. She attended a small, specific environment in Perugia with its lifestyle.

Like that one. It's not on any record I've read, which could make it fall into the category of malicious defamatory lies. Unless you have a source you can share?