Continuation Part 10: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[AmyStrange]

-

Is there any chance that Machiavelli actually IS Mignini?

-

That's a good question, but I personally don't believe h/ she is, but (and correct me here if I'm wrong Mach) I do think h/ she once posted that h/ she knows Mignini, at least in passing anyway,

d

-

 

[Samson]

Hi folks
Chris Halkides you are the person lying here. You should recall that the defence themselves admit Stefanoni presented the electropherograms in October 2008. Then she even deposited the electropherograms with peaks heigths as requested.
In the electropherograms all peaks are indicated.
You should also recall that the attribution of all peaks was pointed out and all were discussed by all experts in court.

So, Stefanoni provided information about all alleles. She reported all peaks, since she presented the full chart, and she answered question about all of them; all this is the contrary of what you assert.

Hi Machiavelli.
I have been working on a proof that it was not possible for Raffaele Sollecito to deposit his dna on Meredith's bra clasp between 9pm on november the 1st, and her death. Because it is easier now to accept as fact that his dna at some time was associated with this clasp, it is my view the discussion should be how it got there. I am not discussing a murder here.

My proof is as follows.
1. The testimony of the friends Meredith ate dinner with. They say she ate pizza and apple crumble, some of this meal being at 7 30pm, but I contend it must have been all eaten at this time.
2. The autopsy report of Lalli, which was correctly conducted, and this has not been contested in court. He confirmed that the meal described by her friends was indeed completely contained with gastric juices in her stomach, total 500 mils.
3. Raffaele used his computer at 9 11pm and 9 26pm. This is contained in Nencini's official and legal report. He had no opportunity to get to the villa and back between these times in order to touch her bra.
4. All courts have described Meredith as a young woman in excellent health, and strong.

Now here is an extract from an article about gastroparesis.


The most important test is a radioisotope gastric-emptying scan done at the hospital nuclear medicine department. The patient is given a meal that contains a radioisotope, a slightly radioactive substance that will show up on the scan. The dose of radiation from the radioisotope is small and not dangerous. After eating, the patient is asked to lie under a large geiger counter that detects the radioisotope and shows an image of the food in the stomach and how quickly it leaves the stomach. The test takes 2 to 4 hours. Gastroparesis is diagnosed if more than half of the food remains in the stomach after 2 hours.

and the link

http://www.gihealth.com/html/education/gastroparesis.html

It can be readily seen that Meredith did not have gastroparesis, which is extremely rare for her demograph, and associated disorders would have been discovered before or after her death, so she could not have been still alive at 9 30pm. In fact it is obvious she died as soon as she got home by making a logical evaluation of the facts as I have listed them.
Raffaele could not therefore put dna on a live Meredith's bra hook after 9pm november 1 2007..

I look forward to your response.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

-


-

What about the people who lied about the evidence against Raffaele and Amanda? For example, the 40 stab wounds that I see many commenters making in the comment sections of many articles about the case,

d

-

I always read that as 40 different types of wounds; scratches, bruises, cuts etc. Albeit at least 2 of the 40 wounds ended in a slow painful death.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Stefanoni's misleading tables and absurd claims

Hi folks
Chris Halkides you are the person lying here. You should recall that the defence themselves admit Stefanoni presented the electropherograms in October 2008. Then she even deposited the electropherograms with peaks heigths as requested.
In the electropherograms all peaks are indicated.
You should also recall that the attribution of all peaks was pointed out and all were discussed by all experts in court.

So, Stefanoni provided information about all alleles. She reported all peaks, since she presented the full chart, and she answered question about all of them; all this is the contrary of what you assert.

Machiavelli,

What you wrote is beyond ridiculous, and it is a blatant misrepresentation of the facts. All egrams with peak heights should have been gladly offered in 2008. Instead a subset of all of the egrams were given to the defense in 2008, and many did not have peak heights (or Pascali would not have had to ask for them in 2008, as Bongiorno discussed). I would surmise that some peak height information became available by 2009, because Professor Tagliabracci was able to discuss them in his testimony about the autosomal profile from the bra clasp. The knife profile also had peak heights by 2009.

Some egrams with peak heights were grudgingly released in 2011, only three years too late. The egrams I saw at this time were much higher in quality than the ones I had seen previously. Stefanoni's tables (which can be found in the Conti-Vecchiotti report and in Dr. Vecchiotti's 2013 article) do not include any number of peaks with peak heights greater than 50 RFU. This sleight-of-hand was particularly egregious with respect to the Y-chromosomal DNA egram of the clasp because several alleles have non-stutter peaks that are greater than this in height. In addition, there are a number of alleles in the Y-chromosomal egram from the clasp which are obviously real, yet do not have a peak height above 50 RFU. When one considers the fact that Stefanoni included peaks as small as 15 RFU in the knife egram, one might ask why other egrams should be treated with a different threshold.

And after almost seven years, there are still no electronic data files. There are missing egrams that could be recreated from the raw data, and the negative controls would be far more useful in this form. Given this sorry shadow of what proper discovery would look like, the defense did not have a chance to challenge Stefanoni's misrepresentations properly during the trial of first instance in 2009.

If Stefanoni wants to claim that she deposited the negative controls in 2008, one must ask, "Then where are they now?" If Stefanoni still wants to claim that she never had contamination in seven years, then one must ask, what about the quantification data that show otherwise?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Federico Aldrovandi's mother

Personally I am not silent. I expressed and glad to express again I strongly support Mignini's decision to file legal actions against liars guilty of criminal defamation. I see a clear red line between criticism and unproven wild assertions about people. Those who spread malicious defamatory lies are criminals.
Actually my criticism is the other way around. I would have preferred that Mignini had started much more legal actions, and that several other people besides Mignini started legal actions. I think the legal lawsuit response was little, much smaller than what it deserved.

Machiavelli,

This is the most shocking statement I can recall being put forward on these threads. Not the least of the many problems I have with this view is how poorly it describes the reality of the situation. Can you or anyone else justify (to take one example) how Federico Alsdrovandi's mother collected about ten judicial actions against her while she was only seeking justice for her murdered son?

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Machiavelli,

This is the most shocking statement I can recall being put forward on these threads. Not the least of the many problems I have with this view is how poorly it describes the reality of the situation. Can you or anyone else justify (to take one example) how Federico Alsdrovandi's mother collected about ten judicial actions against her while she was only seeking justice for her murdered son?

Ok that was not Italian law enforcement at its best, anymore the Central Park Five showed NYC law enforcement at its best, things happen. Nonetheless, do you believe the publication of Raffaele book just before the ISC deliberation was wise?

 

[lonepinealex]

Machiavelli,

This is the most shocking statement I can recall being put forward on these threads. Not the least of the many problems I have with this view is how poorly it describes the reality of the situation. Can you or anyone else justify (to take one example) how Federico Alsdrovandi's mother collected about ten judicial actions against her while she was only seeking justice for her murdered son?

and I thought the UK had problems with legal chill. Man alive...

 

[kwill]

I see a clear red line between criticism and unproven wild assertions about people. Those who spread malicious defamatory lies are criminals.

Could not agree more. Let's start with the notion that Amanda Knox has ever used hard drugs.

 

[Wattson]

Ok that was not Italian law enforcement at its best, anymore the Central Park Five showed NYC law enforcement at its best, things happen. Nonetheless, do you believe the publication of Raffaele book just before the ISC deliberation was wise?

Are you suggesting their decision was influenced by it?

 

[js202]

Could not agree more. Let's start with the notion that Amanda Knox has ever used hard drugs.

Yes, but she had the name of a known drug dealer in her cell phone! Or something.

And, similarly, despite there being no record of communication between them, whatsoever - not even Guede's phone number in her cell - she was a *known associate* of Rudy Guede, because she had once written something in Facebook about "a beautiful black man" she had seen once in Perugia.

Suffice it to say that Machiavelli's approach to this case is strictly the province of weak-minded individuals.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Are you suggesting their decision was influenced by it?

I would say some form of legal action was evitable given the timing of publication and comments in Raffaele book. I said it at the time that it was unwise, to say the least.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

A Rumsfeldian response

Ok that was not Italian law enforcement at its best, anymore the Central Park Five showed NYC law enforcement at its best, things happen. Nonetheless, do you believe the publication of Raffaele book just before the ISC deliberation was wise?

CoulsdonUK,

Things happen? Police brutality occurs in many (perhaps all) countries. But Aldrovandi's mother got hit with legal action for called the four police officers delinquents. Given that they had brutally beaten to death an unarmed teenager, "delinquents" doesn't half cover it. Those of you who are unfamiliar with the case might look up some of her comments on Beppe Grillo's blog.

The police are big boys and girls and should be able to handle being criticized by Raffaele or anyone else. If his book actually influenced the SCC's decision, then I have even less respect for them than I had before, a result which is difficult to achieve.

Should his diary have been taken from his lawyer? Doesn't this violate attorney-client privilege? Should portions of his diary have been released?

 

[CoulsdonUK]

CoulsdonUK,

Things happen? Police brutality occurs in many (perhaps all) countries. <Snip>

Agreed!

 

[AmyStrange]

-

I always read that as 40 different types of wounds; scratches, bruises, cuts etc. Albeit at least 2 of the 40 wounds ended in a slow painful death.

-

Sorry c, but they were always explicit in saying 40 stab wounds, not 40 wounds, 6-7 of which were stab wounds. Otherwise, I would never have brought it up,

d

-

 

[CoulsdonUK]

-


-

Sorry c, but they were always explicit in saying 40 stab wounds, not 40 wounds, 6-7 of which were stab wounds. Otherwise, I would never have brought it up,

d

-

AmyStrange

Semantics; lazy media reporting.

Meredith suffered 40 various cuts, scratches and bruise which culmulated in her brutal death, do you accept these facts?

 

[Machiavelli]

Machiavelli,

This is the most shocking statement I can recall being put forward on these threads. Not the least of the many problems I have with this view is how poorly it describes the reality of the situation. Can you or anyone else justify (to take one example) how Federico Alsdrovandi's mother collected about ten judicial actions against her while she was only seeking justice for her murdered son?

You are not in the position about lecturing me about Patrizia, I know her personally. Patrizia simply won against Guerra's lawsuit, because she was right. (there was just one lawsuit, contrarily to your belief) But Aldrovandi's parents conduct was nowhere near something like the pro-Knox supporters. Patrizia was innocent of criminal defamation, while the Knox supporters are guilty.

But there is a misinterpretation on your part on what a criminal defamation suite is for. First You think legal actions are made by autorities, which is false, they'r almost all from private citizens. Second, you apparently assume lawsuits are done to "stifle criticism" or shut up jounralists. This is not the purpose of defamation lawsuits. In the Italian system, the purpose of a legal action is not to prevent critics from speaking, it is to discredit their arguments. I'ts like calling a refree. The refree assigns the point, says who is right and who is discredited, and this restores 'honor' in the common perception. The accuser/argument is credited or perceived as discredited. I'ts an way of deciding, a kind of debate along with the Italian mindset.

 

[Diocletus]

In the Italian system, the purpose of a legal action is not to prevent critics from speaking, it is to discredit their arguments. I'ts like calling a refree. The refree assigns the point, says who is right and who is discredited, and this restores 'honor' in the common perception. The accuser/argument is credited or perceived as discredited. I'ts an way of deciding, a kind of debate along with the Italian mindset.

That's good to know. Let's call the ECHR to be a referee.

 

[Machiavelli]

I correct myself: Patrizia Moretti actually received another defamation lawsuit in 2014 from Coisp, a far-right police syndacate.
However, I know Mariaemanuela Guerra's lawsuit was the only one that was not dropped or withdrawn until to 2014.

 

[AmyStrange]

-

AmyStrange

Semantics; lazy media reporting.

Meredith suffered 40 various cuts, scratches and bruise which culmulated in her brutal death, do you accept these facts?

-

That's what the autopsy report says, and on that basis I accept it, but specifically saying "40 stab wounds" goes way beyond semantics or lazy media reporting, in my opinion.

By the way, and to be perfectly honest, I wasn't talking about the media, I was talking about commenters on various articles reporting the crime, but I do remember some of the earlier articles that reported the facts wrong. For example, the infamous bathroom photo that showed the bathroom covered with a pink substance and the writer asking, how could Amanda have taken a shower with the bathroom looking like that, and that's only one example,

d

-

 

[Machiavelli]

That's good to know. Let's call the ECHR to be a referee.

Let me understand: you are saying if the ECHR drops Knox's complaint, you will accept that 1) Amanda Knox is guilty, and 2) authorities involved acted properly?