Continuation Part 10: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Samson]

A link to lessons learned in the Jessup case.

"10) The need for full and accurate records of interviews with witnesses.
“Hours of untaped interviews might be reflected in a single entry in a notebook or in an incomplete précis or description of the interview contained in a supplementary report,” Kaufman wrote."

I'm just catching up with the CNN interview on TJMK.

This extract is worth considering

11’03’’ CNN: No one hit her?

11’06’’ Mignini: No, look, absolutely not. I can state this in the most positive way, and then, let’s say… I wasn’t there when she was being questioned by police, the rooms are quite far away… you don’t know but I was… it’s quite far, there’s a corridor, and I was with the director, Dr. Porfazio, and she was being questioned in a different place. I also remember that passing through, I also saw Sollecito who was alone in a different room; he was also being questioned, as I recall. I don’t exclude…well…it’s clear that I wasn’t there, but I don’t believe that anything whatsoever happened, and in my presence absolutely not.

Mignini in fact sounds very unsure here, knowing that Lumumba was also hit/beaten.

The clear and unwritten pact among those present to deny physical contact is obvious, as the culture supports litigation against unprovable allegations.
All guilters with young daughters might like to imagine the fear they would feel, especially when accompanied by a threat to never see their family for thirty years. (IIUC is the account of Amanda).

Of course everything will be denied without recordings. There is an enormous amount of implied and solid material to support Amanda's case at ECHR.

 

[Samson]

Also this latest post at TJMK includes this.

THREE TIMES Knox willingly put herself under his questioning (December 2007, January 2008, July 2009) to attempt to shake this. While his questioning was formal, polite and quite mild, Knox’s recollection of 5-6 November was scrambled or devious (some think she and RS were both high on hard drugs).

So by the end of those sessions Knox seems to have made a complete disbeliever of Dr Mignini, swayed few if any in Italy, and certainly did not sway the judges of the trial court or any appeal court.

It is a statement of such barefaced mendacity, the site should be obliged to correct this. Anyone who discovers the case at TJMK will be given to understand that all judges find guilt. How they can all be comfortable to scurry and hide under the annulment rock, is beyond belief.

I challenge anyone from the site to repeat the statement on this forum.

It is just this sort of reliance on judicial form that shows their case is manufactured.
The staged break in lie has gained this status by the same means, one judge says it is so, and it becomes judicial truth.
BUT it is a proven physical and forensic lie.

 

[kwill]

Also this latest post at TJMK includes this.

(some think she and RS were both high on hard drugs).

Some think whoever wrote that is high on hard drugs. See how easy that is? Some think the entire TJMK site is written by four demented individuals, all of whom are currently incarcerated in the same mental hospital. Some think that people who have studied the case and still believe AK & RS were involved in any way are vicious, ugly human beings. Some think that evolution is just a theory. Some think that the earth is flat.

I challenge anyone from the site to repeat the statement on this forum.

They won't.

 

[xinonix]

Amanda was naive (ni-eve?). Where she comes from the police are friendly to pretty girls. She thought police are here to help us.
She did not think that anyone would suspect she killed anyone. Nor did she think that they wanted her to be the leader of a team that killed Meredith.
What they needed was her signature on a bogus confession.
If a prosecutor has a confession form the accused, even if his case sounds like fiction, you can bet that the jury will buy it.

 

[Desert Fox]

Also this latest post at TJMK includes this.

THREE TIMES Knox willingly put herself under his questioning (December 2007, January 2008, July 2009) to attempt to shake this. While his questioning was formal, polite and quite mild, Knox’s recollection of 5-6 November was scrambled or devious (some think she and RS were both high on hard drugs).

So by the end of those sessions Knox seems to have made a complete disbeliever of Dr Mignini, swayed few if any in Italy, and certainly did not sway the judges of the trial court or any appeal court.

It is a statement of such barefaced mendacity, the site should be obliged to correct this. Anyone who discovers the case at TJMK will be given to understand that all judges find guilt. How they can all be comfortable to scurry and hide under the annulment rock, is beyond belief.

I challenge anyone from the site to repeat the statement on this forum.

It is just this sort of reliance on judicial form that shows their case is manufactured.
The staged break in lie has gained this status by the same means, one judge says it is so, and it becomes judicial truth.
BUT it is a proven physical and forensic lie.

My thoughts are always that the police will always lie about how forceful any interrogation will be. I take it as a given. My question is how people in general take such questioning to be?

 

[CoulsdonUK]

You seem married to the idea that the Italian police and Mignini did not abuse their authority and coerce confused statements from 2 vulnerable innocent college students. That the police and MIgnini did it intentionally, and planned their illegal assault in advance. As they and other Italian police seem to do fairly regularly. Why would you side with the criminals (police) in so clear a case of misconduct?

And the interrogation is just the tip of the iceberg. The whole damn system and all the participants well deserve prison time for their behavior in this case, let alone other cases.

Its a system run amok, and in a state of moral collapse. We may have a limited ability to fix it, but it's hardly comprehensible that you will stand around mumbling feeble support for it.

Did you see Amanda's article recently, on what it feels like to be wrongly accused and convicted for a crime you didn't commit? Can you imagine that she and Raf may actually be innocent and have suffered enormously, unjustly, and continue to do so?

Are you able to imagine that possibility, that they're innocent, and does it stir in you any empathy?

No I have not read the article has it been posted here?

Is the rest of your post a response to this question?

Do you have any information on the content of Amanda’s slander application or is the highlighted text an aspiration?

 

[Desert Fox]

No I have not read the article has it been posted here?
Is the rest of your post a response to this question?

Why do you have to have read the article to put yourself in the shoes on an innocent victim of a wrongful prosecution?

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Why do you have to have read the article to put yourself in the shoes on an innocent victim of a wrongful prosecution?

I was merely responding to a question. I tend to identify with the Kercher family for reasons I have stated previously.

ETA: Has it been posted, I may have missed the link.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

What it feels like to be wrongfully accused

CoulsdonUK,

A link has indeed be posted in previous comments. Link.

 

[lonepinealex]

I was merely responding to a question. I tend to identify with the Kercher family for reasons I have stated previously.

It's not zero-sum, despite what some guilters will claim. I empathise and sympathise with both.

 

[Samson]

I was merely responding to a question. I tend to identify with the Kercher family for reasons I have stated previously.

ETA: Has it been posted, I may have missed the link.

Coulsdon, many of us are new to the case, and would be interested in a more specific explanation for taking sides where there are many victims..

 

[AmyStrange]

How would you feel?

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It's not zero-sum, despite what some guilters will claim. I empathise and sympathise with both.

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Yes, I agree, but I sympathize with Meredith more than I sympathize with her family, because of the horrific way she died, and going after the wrong party and allowing the more probable killer to get away with it just adds to her tragedy tremendously.

How would you feel if your murderer was getting out soon (spending less than a decade in jail for killing you) and a friend was being hounded instead? How would you feel?

d

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[AmyStrange]

Correct me if I'm wrong here CoulsdonUK...

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Coulsdon, many of us are new to the case, and would be interested in a more specific explanation for taking sides where there are many victims..

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...but I think he/ she believes in the legal system, and if they say Raffaele and Amanda are guilty than that's really all he/ she needs to believe they are guilty.

Personally, I believe it's hard to get past this unless you have experienced the extreme foibles of any legal system yourself.

Of course, if you believe they are guilty to begin with, then using the legal system as your proof is really a cop out, because then you don't have to argue evidence or your feelings about the case or Amanda or even Raffaele.

Using your belief in the legal system as the basis of your arguement is easier then arguing the actual facts of the case. Like I said, it's a lazy person's way of feeling good about yourself rather than looking at the validity of your feelings and digging into that can of worms. Honestly looking at your feelings is a difficult thing to do, especially if your total self-worth (self-esteem) is dependent on being right, in my opinion,

d

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ETA: it's interesting that more people who believe in their innocence are willing to change their mind if they can be proven wrong, than Gumpers. I don't believe I've ever seen a Gumper ever express that they would change their mind if they were proven wrong. I would like to see one Gumper prove me wrong here. I believe this one thing proves they aren't really interested in justice, or care one iota about Meredith, but are rather just interested in getting that B/ Witch Amanda.

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[Desert Fox]

I was merely responding to a question. I tend to identify with the Kercher family for reasons I have stated previously.

ETA: Has it been posted, I may have missed the link.

Does it make you pause that the parents / spouse of a murder victim always seem to believe that those who are convicted initially, even if later exonerated?

 

[AmyStrange]

It's too bad...

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...that people who need to feel good about themselves and their beliefs, would rather bully those (like Raffaele and Amanda) who they irrationally hate rather than use their brain and really look at the evidence.

I've found that people like that have no common sense smarts. Prove me wrong Gumpers. I dare you,

d

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[AmyStrange]

The Killer of Little Shepards

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Does it make you pause that the parents / spouse of a murder victim always seem to believe that those who are convicted initially, even if later exonerated?

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History is replete with people like that. Read "The Killer of Little Shepards" (a history of forensics by Douglas Starr) to see what I mean,

d

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ETA: I like the new look of the forum, nice! Kudos to the website developers here!!

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[Samson]

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...but I think he/ she believes in the legal system, and if they say Raffaele and Amanda are guilty than that's really all he/ she needs to believe they are guilty.

Personally, I believe it's hard to get past this unless you have experienced the extreme foibles of any legal system yourself.

Of course, if you believe they are guilty to begin with, then using the legal system as your proof is really a cop out, because then you don't have to argue evidence or your feelings about the case or Amanda or even Raffaele.

Using your belief in the legal system as the basis of your arguement is easier then arguing the actual facts of the case. Like I said, it's a lazy person's way of feeling good about yourself rather than looking at the validity of your feelings and digging into that can of worms. Honestly looking at your feelings is a difficult thing to do, especially if your total self-worth (self-esteem) is dependent on being right, in my opinion,

d

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ETA: it's interesting that more people who believe in their innocence are willing to change their mind if they can be proven wrong, than Gumpers. I don't believe I've ever seen a Gumper ever express that they would change their mind if they were proven wrong. I would like to see one Gumper prove me wrong here. I believe this one thing proves they aren't really interested in justice, or care one iota about Meredith, but are rather just interested in getting that B/ Witch Amanda.

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CoulsdonUK might respond, but this forum should be for disclosing well founded positions, not partisan or tribal notions.

 

[NancyS]

That is proper nuts.

Still, it goes to show what flights of fancy are required to maintain a pro-guilt view of this case. Bizarre.

It really is crazy - the one thing I have realised recently from looking at twitter, is that many of the active pro-guilt are also harassing Kate and Gerry McCann. What is wrong with these people?

 

[Samson]

It really is crazy - the one thing I have realised recently from looking at twitter, is that many of the active pro-guilt are also harassing Kate and Gerry McCann. What is wrong with these people?

Oscar Pistorius is reckoned by judge Masipa to have genuinely believed he was shooting an intruder.
Let us set aside that finding for convenience, but thoughtful/Leila Shnepps/professor of mathematics truly believes she is correct in that finding.
Notwithstanding this, she is calling a christmas celebration of Oscar being taken down for culpable manslaughter in Paris, because the Christmas celebration of AK and RS being taken down is delayed.

 

[LondonJohn]

It's not zero-sum, despite what some guilters will claim. I empathise and sympathise with both.

Indeed. In my opinion, it's disingenuous at best, and morally repugnant at worst, to create this sort of false dichotomy in which a belief that Knox/Sollecito should be acquitted is automatically incompatible with empathy/sympathy for Kercher's family and friends.

To me, one of the (many) horrible aspects of this sorry case is the way in which the Kercher family appears to have been guided in their beliefs by the Perugia authorities. It's very easy to see how a grieving, confused family could become entranced by the apparent authority of people such as Mignini, Comodi, Giobbi, Massei and Nencini, reinforced by the (false) automatic belief that such authority figures are disinterested, morally-upright individuals who have no agenda other than "solving the crime".

I very much hope that if/when this whole thing unravels, the friends and family of the victim will - perhaps not immediately but in time - come to understand and accept two crucial things: 1) there never was any credible, reliable evidence of Knox's/Sollecito's participation in the murder, and 2) all the reliable, credible evidence is wholly consistent with Guede acting alone. But of course none of that will ameliorate the unnecessary years of uncertainty, cognitive dissonance and financial penalty that the Kerchers will have gone through as a direct result of the incompetence and misconduct of various individuals in Perugia law enforcement and the Italian courts.