Continuation Part 10: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Bill Williams]

Bill

Thanks for the compliment.

I thought you'd like it.

 

[Planigale]

I listened to an interview with Sir Alec Jeffreys who 'discovered DNA fingerprinting about the first forensic use in a criminal case (it had been used in non criminal cases previously). Two young women had been raped and murdered, the police thought they had a serial killer, a young man had confessed to the murder in the second case but not the first, semen samples were available from both murders and Dr Alec Jeffrey was asked if his DNA fingerprinting technique could be used. He showed that both semen samples were from the same person, but not the person who confessed and was convicted. He said that the police had no compunction in believing the new scientific technique, accepting a false confession had led to a wrongful conviction and relaunching a major murder investigation, this was also the first time that mass screening of people was used to identify the true culprit (actually more complicated since the true culprit persuaded someone to stand in for him in the screening so was not detected, but someone overheard the story at the pub reported this to the police who then caught him).

 

[acbytesla]

I don't agree with the after Amanda nor with the get an American nor the framing of her from the git-go. I also don't think his not staying in the Caribbean proves anything nor do I think his being over the border in Austria when the appeal verdict came in proves anything.

I don't think anyone consciously thought "let's get an American". But I do think that subconscious xenophobia and anti-Americanism certainly came into play. If you have ever traveled much in Europe, you know that there is a sort of love/hate relationship with the US. I'm also sure that Perugia has a love/hate relationship with the students that come to school there. Especially the foreign ones.

A lot of conservative people thought Amanda was odd. Personally, I think that is part of someone's charm. But a lot of people don't see it that way. There is a Japanese saying "that the nail that stands out must be hammered down". It's all about conformity.

I thought Nina Burleigh's said it all in her most recent article in the New York Observer "The truth is that powerless outsiders don’t fare well in any justice system, including Europe’s."

 

[Desert Fox]

I don't think anyone consciously thought "let's get an American". But I do think that subconscious xenophobia and anti-Americanism certainly came into play. If you have ever traveled much in Europe, you know that there is a sort of love/hate relationship with the US. I'm also sure that Perugia has a love/hate relationship with the students that come to school there. Especially the foreign ones. A lot of conservative people thought Amanda was odd. Personally, I think that is part of someone's charm. But a lot of people don't see it that way. There is a Japanese saying "that the nail that stands out must be hammered down". It's all about conformity.

I thought Nina Burleigh's said it all in her most recent article in the New York Observer "The truth is that powerless outsiders don’t fare well in any justice system, including Europe’s."

That really worked well for them from what I have read

 

[acbytesla]

That really worked well for them from what I have read

It had worked well for them for many years. It brought in a lot of revenue for the business owners and the landlords. That's the love part. The wild parties and everything else that comes with that is the hate part.

 

[Grinder]

I don't think anyone consciously thought "let's get an American". But I do think that subconscious xenophobia and anti-Americanism certainly came into play. If you have ever traveled much in Europe, you know that there is a sort of love/hate relationship with the US. I'm also sure that Perugia has a love/hate relationship with the students that come to school there. Especially the foreign ones.

Well it would appear that many here do believe it, without caveats. While well experienced in Europe as well as SA and little with Japan, the attitude towards people from the US never has seemed to the point of anything like what has been described here.

A lot of conservative people thought Amanda was odd. Personally, I think that is part of someone's charm. But a lot of people don't see it that way. There is a Japanese saying "that the nail that stands out must be hammered down". It's all about conformity.

Not just conservative. Hate Peggy all you want, but she's not conservative nor were the british girls.

I thought Nina Burleigh's said it all in her most recent article in the New York Observer "The truth is that powerless outsiders don’t fare well in any justice system, including Europe’s."

I thought Camus said better in The Stranger or The Outsider where a hood is a bonnet.

 

[Samson]

I don't agree with the after Amanda nor with the get an American nor the framing of her from the git-go. I also don't think his not staying in the Caribbean proves anything nor do I think his being over the border in Austria when the appeal verdict came in proves anything.

His not staying in the Caribbean is exculpatory.
A guilty Raffaele will expect the trial to confirm guilt, so he will avoid returning willingly if he is in a safe haven.
An innocent Raffaele will bravely expect a correct verdict and return with pride to face his accusers. This is nothing to do with proof.

 

[Grinder]

His not staying in the Caribbean is exculpatory.
A guilty Raffaele will expect the trial to confirm guilt, so he will avoid returning willingly if he is in a safe haven.
An innocent Raffaele will bravely expect a correct verdict and return with pride to face his accusers. This is nothing to do with proof.

Assuming he had the choice it would reflect more on his intelligence than his guilt or innocence. If it was exculpatory then a guilty Raf would have done what?

A guilty Raf would be able to see what the vast majority of people that have studied this case have seen, that there was not a case presented fir BARD. Period.

The assertion is without merit and I could easily argue that a guilty Raf would be more likely to return because people would argue as you have done and it would make him look innocent

The calculation to return or not can not be assessed for reason.

Obviously an innocent Raf would have been better off not to have returned unless it was clear they would come get him.

The only thing we know or can judge is that he returned.

 

[acbytesla]

Well it would appear that many here do believe it, without caveats. While well experienced in Europe as well as SA and little with Japan, the attitude towards people from the US never has seemed to the point of anything like what has been described here.

I'm not sure what you mean here Grinder. I'm just saying that Amanda was the "different outsider". They also made her out to be something she wasn't/isn't.

Not just conservative. Hate Peggy all you want, but she's not conservative nor were the british girls.

There was a lot of "slut shaming" going on by the Italians and the media. I think the British girls were just being "catty". And I don't have a clue what is wrong with Peggy.

 

[Samson]

Assuming he had the choice it would reflect more on his intelligence than his guilt or innocence. If it was exculpatory then a guilty Raf would have done what?

A guilty Raf would be able to see what the vast majority of people that have studied this case have seen, that there was not a case presented fir BARD. Period.

The assertion is without merit and I could easily argue that a guilty Raf would be more likely to return because people would argue as you have done and it would make him look innocent

The calculation to return or not can not be assessed for reason.

Obviously an innocent Raf would have been better off not to have returned unless it was clear they would come get him.

The only thing we know or can judge is that he returned.

If I was a lay juror with a meaningful vote, and I was on the cusp of acquitting for BARD, I would more likely do so knowing that the accused returned despite having an option to remain at large elsewhere.
There are various thought experiments of this nature. It seems a little unreasonable to downgrade his intelligence for returning when the ethical scales give him thumbs up.
Does anyone know if he was permanently safe in the Caribbean from capture by local or international authorites? This question needs to be answered to further the discussion. I suspect the answer is no.

 

[Grinder]

I'm not sure what you mean here Grinder. I'm just saying that Amanda was the "different outsider". They also made her out to be something she wasn't/isn't.

We were discussing why they targeted her from the beginning before the arrest. Can you give an example of how they made her out to be something she wasn't before arrest?

Her odd, different or Seattle behavior may well have caused the PLE to be suspicious of her and well they should have.

There was a lot of "slut shaming" going on by the Italians and the media. I think the British girls were just being "catty". And I don't have a clue what is wrong with Peggy.

Once again, when? They originally had Meredith voluntarily participating in a sex game, which would be the same slut shaming? The question wasn't catty or not, it was whether it was conservative minded people that thought her odd. The british girls thought her odd and they weren't particularly conservative or prudish.

Tesla said - A lot of conservative people thought Amanda was odd.

Peggy is not conservative and thought Amanda odd. I was showing you that it wasn't just conservatives that thought/think she was/is odd.

 

[Grinder]

If I was a lay juror with a meaningful vote, and I was on the cusp of acquitting for BARD, I would more likely do so knowing that the accused returned despite having an option to remain at large elsewhere.
There are various thought experiments of this nature. It seems a little unreasonable to downgrade his intelligence for returning when the ethical scales give him thumbs up.
Does anyone know if he was permanently safe in the Caribbean from capture by local or international authorites? This question needs to be answered to further the discussion. I suspect the answer is no.

Of course there is no way to argue against what an irrational mind would do but the act proves nothing.

You have no idea what the considerations were on returning or not.

He was not safe from the Italians there.

Do you think that Nencini would have ruled differently if Amanda returned?

Btw, your line of thought is similar to the PGP just in the opposite direction. If Amanda and Raf hadn't killed her they would have gone to the memorial. If Amanda and Raf hadn't killed her they wouldn't have bought sexy underwear and talked about sex.

 

[Samson]

Of course there is no way to argue against what an irrational mind would do but the act proves nothing.

You have no idea what the considerations were on returning or not.

He was not safe from the Italians there.

Do you think that Nencini would have ruled differently if Amanda returned?

Btw, your line of thought is similar to the PGP just in the opposite direction. If Amanda and Raf hadn't killed her they would have gone to the memorial. If Amanda and Raf hadn't killed her they wouldn't have bought sexy underwear and talked about sex.

Not safe answers the question. Hind sight tells us the decision was made by Cassation not Nencini. If Amanda had returned she would have been a flight risk on conviction as Raffaele was deemed to be, and I have seen no one conjecture how she would have been treated at that point. Maybe you have an idea.

 

[acbytesla]

We were discussing why they targeted her from the beginning before the arrest. Can you give an example of how they made her out to be something she wasn't before arrest?

Sorry, but I'm still confused with your train of thought here. I think we are talking past each other. I can't give you an answer as to how anyone made her out to be anything before the arrest. My point is that Amanda was different. And she was the outsider.

Some people thought her to be odd. Like the British girls.


Also when I'm talking conservative, I'm talking about the Italian authorities...not the British virgins. As I said, they were just catty. As for Peggy...not sure what she has to do with this conversation. I never said she was conservative....In fact, the only opinion I have about Peggy is that she is crazy.

Her odd, different or Seattle behavior may well have caused the PLE to be suspicious of her and well they should have.

I agree with the first part and then think you ran it off the rails.
Amanda may have been odd, may have been different. And yes, that probably led to the PLE in suspecting Amanda. BUT...BUT none of that really is a good reason to suspect Amanda of murder. The truth is they uspected Amanda of murder because they were STUPID and INCOMPETENT.

Once again, when? They originally had Meredith voluntarily participating in a sex game, which would be the same slut shaming?

That was just STUPID. It turned into slut shaming as they maintained that theory without a shred of anything that pointed to that theory.

 

[Dan O.]

There goes Grinder making false equivalences again. Fleeing fron justice is such a common occurrence that there is a name for it. They are called "Fugitives". So what is the name for the suspect that buys underware and talks about sex? Would that be a Freuditive?

 

[Desert Fox]

It had worked well for them for many years. It brought in a lot of revenue for the business owners and the landlords. That's the love part. The wild parties and everything else that comes with that is the hate part.

What I am arguing is that their treatment of the whole case seems to have stopped that flow of students and money. This case seems to have been pretty bad for the city.

 

[Desert Fox]

There goes Grinder making false equivalences again. Fleeing fron justice is such a common occurrence that there is a name for it. They are called "Fugitives". So what is the name for the suspect that buys underware and talks about sex? Would that be a Freuditive?

The funny thing is that if she had fed to Germany or the United States, she never would have been a suspect for them.

I wonder if we should look as an object lesson that, if you involved in a serious crime in another country and they are not detaining you, get the hell out of dodge.

 

[Grinder]

There goes Grinder making false equivalences again. Fleeing fron justice is such a common occurrence that there is a name for it. They are called "Fugitives". So what is the name for the suspect that buys underware and talks about sex? Would that be a Freuditive?

What a stupid post. First of all fleeing wasn't in question. He was legally and openly in the Dominican Republic and wouldn't have been a fugitive had he stayed there throughout the appeal trial or even the ISC ruling. Only if convicted finally he refused then to return would he be a fugitive. Being a fugitive doesn't mean a person is guilty and I'm sure if Amanda is convicted and doesn't go to Italy you won't consider her guilty.

The fact he returned means nothing in terms of guilt or innocence. In the same way that the kids not going to the memorial or buying underwear means nothing for guilt or innocence. PGP say that points to guilt and PIP say Raf going to Italy proves innocence - both are specious.

 

[Grinder]

The funny thing is that if she had fed to Germany or the United States, she never would have been a suspect for them.

I wonder if we should look as an object lesson that, if you involved in a serious crime in another country and they are not detaining you, get the hell out of dodge.

Since they told her she couldn't leave, I doubt it would be a winning strategy.

I thought you believed they were on to her from the very beginning.

 

[Desert Fox]

Since they told her she couldn't leave, I doubt it would be a winning strategy.

I thought you believed they were on to her from the very beginning.

I thought it was more of a suggestion. . . .
She is not stupid and if somebody tells me that I cannot leave, the first thing I will do is lawyer up.