Continuation Part 10: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Am I evil for not being too concerned with Meredeth. I feel for her family's loss but she is gone and nothing will ever change that. Assuming Amanda and Raff are innocent, we are talking about locking them up for decades to assuage the Italian legal system.
 
Bill Williams said:
That part is not entirely true. The Daily Mail recently paid for a Los Angeles tabloid photographer to fly to Seattle and stalk Amanda Knox. They had her pictured handing over about $100 in cash to her boyfriend in a park.

I would say that this case is imbedded in the UK collective unconscious. The Daily Mail probably has an "app" somewhere which tells them how often to do a story like that one.....

..... all to maximize profit.

As for Piers Morgan, I think he went afoul of CNN by taking on the US gun lobby. Compared to the US gun lobby, Morgan looked like Atticus Finch. That's why they had to ship him back to the UK.

I was watching when Morgan covered the Kercher case following the March 2013 reversal. Gloria Allred and Jeffrey Toobin were his guests. Morgan seemed a tad outraged that the ISC had implied that his friend's daughter, Meredith,had been involved in a sex game, albeit before it had gone wrong. I thought Morgan was going to burst a blood vessel on that one alone.

Allred tried her best to stifle an eye-roll when Morgan alluded to Knox perhaps knowing something she wasn't telling us. Allred then recounted her own lone attempt to start a business in Italy, and how the litigation-friendly and cumbersome legal atmosphere meant that one minor run in with law, could bankrupt you and keep you tied into the courts for years.

Toobin was more succinct. As a then-CNN partner to Morgan, Toobin mercifully said, "Let's cut to the chase. Amanda Knox is not going anywhere. She should just settle into her life here in the U.S. and put all this behind her."

Toobin had been the one commenting in October 2011 in the very hours after the acquittal. When asked why the dramatic reversal, Toobin said, "Well, it's perhaps because there simply was no credible case against the two." Ever since Toobin has been a "cut to the chase"kind of analyst about it all. Nothing seems to surprise him about Italy's system.

He rarely comments about Raffaele. I would imagine if he did it would have been something like, "He should have stayed in the Caribbean."
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A guilty Raffaele would have stayed in the Caribbean, an obvious fact not noticed by the "knifeboy" brigade.
 
the jurors were not exactly anonymous

CoulsdonUK said:
Gosh! If possible I would like to know the jurors name and the case they were referring to and if possible the quotation from more than one credible independent source. Reasonable?
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No, I cannot honestly say that I think that your position is reasonable at all. The question I posed could have at least been answered in general terms, without specific reference to this case. However with respect to this case the source of the link was ABC News, a credible source. If a person were to be consistent in always asking for two news sources to verify something, I would judge that person to be consistent but not necessarily reasonable. If a person only asked for two sources rarely, I would judge the person to be possibly inconsistent. As I indicated previously, I don't see why the name of the juror is significant. Do you doubt the veracity of this report?
 
Desert Fox said:
Am I evil for not being too concerned with Meredeth. I feel for her family's loss but she is gone and nothing will ever change that. Assuming Amanda and Raff are innocent, we are talking about locking them up for decades to assuage the Italian legal system.
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The thing is, it's not Amanda's fault the attention is on her - I'm pretty sure she'd rather it wasn't. People who invoke this "remember Meredith" stuff seem to act like Amanda wants this, like she asked to be targeted by Mignini and loves all the attention.

There are two separate tragedies here - murder and wrongful conviction. It's not a zero-sum game.

Unfortunately, as someone on IIP pointed out last week, Meredith has had all the justice she's going to get, and it is outrageously inadequate. Rudy's sentence is not going to be increased though. It's too late for true justice.
 
Chris_Halkides said:
No, I cannot honestly say that I think that your position is reasonable at all. The question I posed could have at least been answered in general terms, without specific reference to this case. However with respect to this case the source of the link was ABC News, a credible source. If a person were to be consistent in always asking for two news sources to verify something, I would judge that person to be consistent but not necessarily reasonable. If a person only asked for two sources rarely, I would judge the person to be possibly inconsistent. As I indicated previously, I don't see why the name of the juror is significant. Do you doubt the veracity of this report?
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How do you know the quote is attributed to an actual juror? Without some kind of corroboration could be anyone.
 
CoulsdonUK said:
Erm; the case of the guys from North Carolina and the Central Park Five, I do believe race was the motivating factor. Raffaele’s treatment doesn’t appear to have been much different than Amanda’s, right?
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Raffaele would never have been charged if he wasn't Amanda's alibi - she was the target.
 
Coulsdon - I brought up a couple of cases where the people convicted were released and asked whether the stories about them should focus on the victims (paraphrase). I wasn't comparing them to Raf or Amanda - I was comparing the nameless victims in those cases to Meredith.

Because you have some distant vague connection to Meredith doesn't really strike me as significant. Why really should you or I care more about the memory of Meredith than Sabrina Buie? It took me a while to find the name since she isn't named in most stories.

Since you believe in the Italian judicial system or at least accept their decision because they have jurisdiction and believe that the system works or should work, I would think that movies that feature the victim and perhaps go against the defendants would trouble you.
 
anonymous sources

CoulsdonUK said:
How do you know the quote is attributed to an actual juror? Without some kind of corroboration could be anyone.
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CoulsdonUK,

Any time a reporter quotes an anonymous source, the credibility of the quote rests with reliability of the reporter. I have read Ms. Battista's articles in the past and I have had no reason to criticize their accuracy. How would an anonymous source provide an opportunity for corroboration? Do you disregard every quote from anonymous sources, or are you selective?
 
unsequestered juries

CoulsdonUK said:
Chris_Halkides

Are you referring to post #2193?

How do you think an America Judge would respond in similar circumstances?
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No, my comment was #2133, and your response was #2184. I agree that the Daily Mail is not an ideal source, but (as I mentioned before), I trust them a bit more with respect to direct quotes than I would for other types of information. BTW, there is a slight error in #2193. The citation that MichaelB found backed up the Huffingtonpost citation I gave, as opposed to the DM citation I gave.

I would hope that an American judge would excuse the juror from service under those circumstances. Juries in Italy play by different rules.
 
lonepinealex said:
This is what I mean about your perspective. Piers Morgan and Tina Brown (who is an American citizen now, btw) have been asked about the case in the US. I can't think of any prominent "cultural leaders" talking about it here. So your examples of Brits on the wrong side of the fence, are actually in an American cultural context. They don't speak for Brits or represent us in any way in this matter - no-one does, cos it's not that big a deal here.

Piers Morgan is the regular butt of jokes on practically every TV and radio current affairs comedy programme. He's a walking punchline.

Are you wilfully ignoring Bill Williams' points about Winterbottom? You seem to have discounted my views on the whole BBC fandango. To give you a bit more cultural perspective that might change how you feel about the two documentaries, BBC3 is like the BBC's tabloid/youth channel, R4 is serious and well respected talk radio.
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I'm not aware Bill W had made any points he wanted me to further address?

As far as I could tell, you and I at least, agreed that the film only has tension by starting from the point in time where there is a guilty conviction - on the first day of the appeal. Thus toying with the notion that, they 'may be guilty'. Winterbottom has openly taken the position that, 'we'll never know the truth'. (See Nina Burleigh's recent article in the New York Observer.)

http://observer.com/2014/09/american-black-men-amanda-knox/

Bill W, am I missing something, do you think we are in some disagreement on anything relating to this movie? (bearing in mind my limited knowledge, the fact you've seen it, and I'm relying in part of your excellent summaries).

LPA - I'm gobsmacked by your claim about 'prominent cultural leaders' in the UK not taking a position on the this case. What do you imagine the British tabloids have been doing for 7 years? Were all those malicious tabloid articles written by elves?

Or are you using the narrow definition of 'cultural leaders' to avoid the totality of the british tabloid's involvement and culpability in fomenting this media circus?

I'm not aware of having discounted your views on the BBC. You said there were different departments involved in the various decisions between Vogt's doc, Winterbottom's film based on Nadeau's book, and the radio 4 TV show.

I thought the radio 4 show was even a bit tepid, but you could tell they were sailing up wind with explaining to their audience that the DNA evidence was junk. I don't know how you get around the fact that units at the BBC endorsed versions told by the most biased reporters around, Vogt and Nadeau, and I have heard BBC commentators for example interviewing Nina Burleigh. They leaned towards the guilty or 'it's still controversial' camps. That is this weird British blindness I'm talking about.

I'm really struck by your descriptions and perceptions. Its as though you're remaining blind to the extraordinary malice in the reporting from the UK.

You really don't think this case is viewed and reported on differently on both sides of the Atlantic?

You think our nuts and your nuts are equivalent? I can understand not wanting to be held accountable for stupid things your countrymen do, trust me on that. I've been apologizing for Reagan and the two bush's for decades. But our history is our history.

The UK's history on the case against Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito has been shameful. That's why people of Dr Gill's stature have taken a public position. You've shown integrity in your analysis here, I'm not attacking you, I hope you're not seeing me as doing so.
 
CoulsdonUK said:
I have a vague recollection of Nencini directing a jurist to disregard what they had seen on a TV programme, is that what you are referring to?



No that is what you posted, I merely stated that I do not see any connection between those cases and this one. I remember this one because Meredith was a local girl (kid), just as you may have particular interest in this case because Amanda is from Seattle, both position are understandable.



Ok.



Thank you.



No just that Italian court system has jurisdiction, right?
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Coulsdon, you almost appear to believe their innocence or guilt is currently indeterminate. Is this a reasonable interpretation? Your view is fairly analagous to the conundrum of Schrodinger's cat, and that the box will be opened with the ISC final verdict.
I don't need to point out that this is not a quantum situation, but everything you post appears to treat it as such.
 
Desert Fox said:
Am I evil for not being too concerned with Meredeth. I feel for her family's loss but she is gone and nothing will ever change that. Assuming Amanda and Raff are innocent, we are talking about locking them up for decades to assuage the Italian legal system.
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No, your thinking is spot on. We owe the Kerchers our sympathy, not the lives, suffering and fortunes of innocent people, and their families and friends.
 
carbonjam72 said:
I'm not aware Bill W had made any points he wanted me to further address?

As far as I could tell, you and I at least, agreed that the film only has tension by starting from the point in time where there is a guilty conviction - on the first day of the appeal. Thus toying with the notion that, they 'may be guilty'. Winterbottom has openly taken the position that, 'we'll never know the truth'. (See Nina Burleigh's recent article in the New York Observer.)

http://observer.com/2014/09/american-black-men-amanda-knox/

Bill W, am I missing something, do you think we are in some disagreement on anything relating to this movie? (bearing in mind my limited knowledge, the fact you've seen it, and I'm relying in part of your excellent summaries).

LPA - I'm gobsmacked by your claim about 'prominent cultural leaders' in the UK not taking a position on the this case. What do you imagine the British tabloids have been doing for 7 years? Were all those malicious tabloid articles written by elves?

Or are you using the narrow definition of 'cultural leaders' to avoid the totality of the british tabloid's involvement and culpability in fomenting this media circus?

I'm not aware of having discounted your views on the BBC. You said there were different departments involved in the various decisions between Vogt's doc, Winterbottom's film based on Nadeau's book, and the radio 4 TV show.

I thought the radio 4 show was even a bit tepid, but you could tell they were sailing up wind with explaining to their audience that the DNA evidence was junk. I don't know how you get around the fact that units at the BBC endorsed versions told by the most biased reporters around, Vogt and Nadeau, and I have heard BBC commentators for example interviewing Nina Burleigh. They leaned towards the guilty or 'it's still controversial' camps. That is this weird British blindness I'm talking about.

I'm really struck by your descriptions and perceptions. Its as though you're remaining blind to the extraordinary malice in the reporting from the UK.

You really don't think this case is viewed and reported on differently on both sides of the Atlantic?

You think our nuts and your nuts are equivalent? I can understand not wanting to be held accountable for stupid things your countrymen do, trust me on that. I've been apologizing for Reagan and the two bush's for decades. But our history is our history.

The UK's history on the case against Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito has been shameful. That's why people of Dr Gill's stature have taken a public position. You've shown integrity in your analysis here, I'm not attacking you, I hope you're not seeing me as doing so.
Click to expand...


I'm honestly at a loss as to how to explain this again, so I'm not going to. We are evidently at insurmountable odds over this. I think your comments about the UK and the British are bizarre and can only come from a lack of cultural perspective, which is totally understandable, you just seem to be unaware of it.

I don't assume that my impression of US culture from the news reports and TV shows we get on side of the pond is at all accurate or nuanced (and trust me you wouldn't want it to be!).
 
lonepinealex said:
The thing is, it's not Amanda's fault the attention is on her - I'm pretty sure she'd rather it wasn't. People who invoke this "remember Meredith" stuff seem to act like Amanda wants this, like she asked to be targeted by Mignini and loves all the attention.
There are two separate tragedies here - murder and wrongful conviction. It's not a zero-sum game.

Unfortunately, as someone on IIP pointed out last week, Meredith has had all the justice she's going to get, and it is outrageously inadequate. Rudy's sentence is not going to be increased though. It's too late for true justice.
Click to expand...

A few pages back, somebody (Might have been Chris) posted where Raff wrote that he wished he never met Amanda. I don't really blame him but I hope he never really blames her. The Italian legal system is who is really to blame here. If not for them, he might remember her fondly (even with the murder) as the romance he had with an American.
 
Samson said:
Coulsdon, you almost appear to believe their innocence or guilt is currently indeterminate. Is this a reasonable interpretation? Your view is fairly analagous to the conundrum of Schrodinger's cat, and that the box will be opened with the ISC final verdict.
I don't need to point out that this is not a quantum situation, but everything you post appears to treat it as such.
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Every court found the West Memphis Three and Norfolk Four guilty, does not mean that they were guilty.

If Amanda and Raff are guilty, it is against the evidence not supported by the evidence.
 
Desert Fox said:
A few pages back, somebody (Might have been Chris) posted where Raff wrote that he wished he never met Amanda. I don't really blame him but I hope he never really blames her. The Italian legal system is who is really to blame here. If not for them, he might remember her fondly (even with the murder) as the romance he had with an American.
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At least somebody is reading my posts even if they can't remember who posted or what was said.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=10217795#post10217795

After being fed a bunch of lies by the police, Raffaele wrote:

ʺI wish to not see Amanda ever again.​
 
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lonepinealex said:
I'm honestly at a loss as to how to explain this again, so I'm not going to. We are evidently at insurmountable odds over this. I think your comments about the UK and the British are bizarre and can only come from a lack of cultural perspective, which is totally understandable, you just seem to be unaware of it.

I don't assume that my impression of US culture from the news reports and TV shows we get on side of the pond is at all accurate or nuanced (and trust me you wouldn't want it to be!).
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Well if anyone would care to weigh in, I'm happy to hear it. If I'm lacking perspective, better to know than not.

As to the phrase US culture, I'm not sure there is one, if there ever was. Big country divided by regions, and particularly by politics. It's a mess.

Biggest mistake I'v encountered though among Euro friends, is confusing American policy, with Americans.
 
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