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Moderated JFK conspiracy theories: it never ends III

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Hahaha!

I am the rational person,
According to whom?

yet I'm not convinced by this vague claim of yours.
Did you read Chapter 1, page 19 of the WCR? There really isn't much concern for those who have a religious like belief that Oswald was innocent despite the preponderance of overwhelming evidence against him. Those people just don't matter. That's why they're referred to as the fringe.

If you have some other suspect who you think the preponderance of evidence points to, go ahead and name them. The WCR determined that Oswald fired three shots from his sniper's nest with the rifle he had bought through mail order and also murdered officer Tippit with Oswald's revolver.

The null hypothesis is that Oswald assassinated JFK. If you believe otherwise, you have the burden of proof to prove otherwise. Like it or not.
 
I have no idea why this supposed group of un-named historians reached a conclusion...

Then perhaps you should stop trying to compare the JFK case to the Jack the Ripper case. None of your references to it seem useful.

AFAICT Jay is merely throwing up a lot of dust...

No, I'm simply refusing to give you a long leash to make a flurry of unsubstantiated claims. Of course, sooner or later all the conspiracy theorists who have argued in this thread discover that they need a pretense to ignore me. You're not the first, and you probably won't be the last.

He doesn't name any.

Then maybe you should stop repeating the phrase, "Ripperologists that JayUtah admires," because you can't show that I do any such thing.

No more than he names any historians who agree with his opinion, either.

Which opinion would that be?

Nonetheless, the identity is not known, which was the only reason I brought it up.

But it was shown how that analogy has limited depth, and thus it doesn't explain the near complete inertia of JFK conspiracy theorists/
 
Well, facts is pretty much irrelevant in the line of duty.

When you've quite finished patting yourself on the back, perhaps you'd like to address Lane's obvious misrepresentation of the FBI reports of other witnesses in Dealey Plaza. It was posted last night in this thread. You were complaining so bitterly that your critics could provide so few examples of Lane's misbehavior, I'm surprised it escaped your attention.
 
When you've quite finished patting yourself on the back, perhaps you'd like to address Lane's obvious misrepresentation of the FBI reports of other witnesses in Dealey Plaza. It was posted last night in this thread. You were complaining so bitterly that your critics could provide so few examples of Lane's misbehavior, I'm surprised it escaped your attention.

I envision the child with closed eyes and fingers in their ears - "I can't see you!"
 
I have no idea why this supposed group of un-named historians reached a conclusion, what this conclusion was, or on what basis -if any - they reached this alleged consensus.
This much we had already pointed out.
AFAICT Jay is merely throwing up a lot of dust to make such a vague and useless claim. As a rhetorical device, it has merit. Join the bandwagon! Whee!

That is not what happened. We know this because we can read the posts for ourselves. Claiming otherwise wont make it true.

He doesn't name any. No more than he names any historians who agree with his opinion, either.

And yet YOU claim he admires them? Please tell me how you came to this astounding conclusion based on the evidence of this thread? Who are they? How do you know which ones he admires? Which posts contain any admiration at all?


It's all so vague as to be utterly meaningless.
So you made a vague and meaningless claim that Jay adores somebody based on no evidence you are willing to provide?

Nonetheless, the identity is not known, which was the only reason I brought it up. Sometimes crimes are unsolved, and that is only natural since as mere mortals we have limitations.

So there is no actual useful comparison to be made?

No, I am not a professional Ripperologist with a degree in Ripperology.

Again: We knew this already based on your posts. And upon your attempts to compare two entirely unlike entities.
 
So you made a vague and meaningless claim that Jay adores somebody based on no evidence you are willing to provide?

Thus begins the inevitable, inexorable descent from conspiracism to "Discredit JayUtah at all costs."

All he'd have to do is say, "Okay, forget Jack the Ripper -- maybe that wasn't the example I wanted."

Pretty much everything would be forgiven and we could quit wallowing in this side excursion and get back to Markham, which itself was a side excursion away from Mark Lane's honesty. It's almost as if some proponents want to wallow in these side trips. And here HSeizant charitably provided exactly the kind of additional evidence those folks say was sorely lacking.
 
Not wanting a derail: But the only really useful comparison between the Ripper and the JFK Assassination is the obvious one: That almost anything can be published on the subject ranging from the useful handbook to the wildest flights of fancy that mangle, misunderstand or outright misrepresent the facts and are accepted by some casual readers as equals.

More so thanks to the internet.

Of course, even the weirdest theorist can stumble onto useful data, a point made much earlier on the thread but missed by some who would benefit most from it. People who have made outrageous claims to "solve" JFKs murder can uncover useful documents or make useful interviews. Asking if you have read a particular book is different from asking if you agree with the conclusions reached.

But I think it pays no favours to the Conspiracy or Innocent Oswald lobbies to make a direct comparison to a field of research famed for the number of suspects, when all but a small minority are pretty much fantasy. As though there being accusations against those who were in different counties, different countries, in prison, asylums, whose totality of evidence against them is... Nothing.

Yes, there are those sceptical of the Warren Commission and yes, there is a stark similarity between some of the books on the subject....
 
Thus begins the inevitable, inexorable descent from conspiracism to "Discredit JayUtah at all costs."

All he'd have to do is say, "Okay, forget Jack the Ripper -- maybe that wasn't the example I wanted."

Pretty much everything would be forgiven and we could quit wallowing in this side excursion and get back to Markham, which itself was a side excursion away from Mark Lane's honesty. It's almost as if some proponents want to wallow in these side trips. And here HSeizant charitably provided exactly the kind of additional evidence those folks say was sorely lacking.

Odd he would admit it was a vague and meaningless claim of his own in a post quoting my natterings rather than by quoting his own statement that you adored them, with a note saying he was sorry for making assumptions about other posters.

He may yet. But somehow I find it more likely he will argue that he meant it was your adoration itself which was vague and meaningless... In which case I will be even more interested in how he came to the conclusion. If for no other insight than to understand the reasoning he is applying to historical evidence.

He already seems desperate to play the "this should be a trial" angle. Always popular, but unfortunately not a way to establish the truth of history.
 
He already seems desperate to play the "this should be a trial" angle.

As I have said, most of the conspiracy theorists we've seen at JREF are content to establish the exoneration of Oswald as their goal and to eschew actually solving the crime as arbitrarily outside their scope or irresponsible speculation. So yes, if your plan is to give the appearance of acquitting Oswald of a crime, then the most agreeable framework is mock trial in which the Warren Commission is cast as the role of a prosecutor (which it wasn't) in a criminal case and act as the defense attorney. With that framework, the "prosecution" has the burden of proof and all the "defense" has to do is to claim to have eroded faith so much in the case against Oswald that it purportedly wouldn't stand up in court. That is -- as with nearly every fringe theory -- the proponents propose that their opponents must clear a very high standard of proof, and that they themselves are obliged only to pick away at bits and pieces of it in order to prove their case.

But it's odd that as soon as I start applying a judicial rigor to his "defense," he starts complaining that I'm asking him to substantiate too much, and that my calls for substantiation and citation have become a "mantra." So it appears they want a "trial" only so they can rely upon a supposed presumption of innocence.

Always popular, but unfortunately not a way to establish the truth of history.

No, not in the least, for the reasons we've already elaborated. First, a trial tests only one hypothesis from the hypothesis set. Second, it's tested against an arbitrary high standard. Third, the different suspects are never directly compared by the court to see which one is most indicated by the evidence -- that's just not how trials work, but it's how history works and how the authorities work when deciding which of all of them should be prosecuted. Finally, a presumption of innocence holds, which is necessary for the disposition of the accused at the end of the trial, but utterly useless in determining absolute truth.
 
As I have said, most of the conspiracy theorists we've seen at JREF are content to establish the exoneration of Oswald as their goal and to eschew actually solving the crime as arbitrarily outside their scope or irresponsible speculation. So yes, if your plan is to give the appearance of acquitting Oswald of a crime, then the most agreeable framework is mock trial in which the Warren Commission is cast as the role of a prosecutor (which it wasn't) in a criminal case and act as the defense attorney. With that framework, the "prosecution" has the burden of proof and all the "defense" has to do is to claim to have eroded faith so much in the case against Oswald that it purportedly wouldn't stand up in court. That is -- as with nearly every fringe theory -- the proponents propose that their opponents must clear a very high standard of proof, and that they themselves are obliged only to pick away at bits and pieces of it in order to prove their case.

But it's odd that as soon as I start applying a judicial rigor to his "defense," he starts complaining that I'm asking him to substantiate too much, and that my calls for substantiation and citation have become a "mantra." So it appears they want a "trial" only so they can rely upon a supposed presumption of innocence.



No, not in the least, for the reasons we've already elaborated. First, a trial tests only one hypothesis from the hypothesis set. Second, it's tested against an arbitrary high standard. Third, the different suspects are never directly compared by the court to see which one is most indicated by the evidence -- that's just not how trials work, but it's how history works and how the authorities work when deciding which of all of them should be prosecuted. Finally, a presumption of innocence holds, which is necessary for the disposition of the accused at the end of the trial, but utterly useless in determining absolute truth.

Real world experience-

Over the years I had interaction with individuals otj that would assert that I couldn't cite or arrest them because "they were innocent until proven guilty" and therefor...Street lawyers could be entertaining or a major pita depending on context.

In our latest round of JFK CT'ers here there's clearly (as Jay noted early on) a language issue in one instance, and with the blanket rejection of all evidence wrt Lane's MO of selective and creative quotation as not constituting proof that he "lied," or has "lied," or just that he may not be right in his quotations demonstrates that the individual(s) in question are inclined to reject the E in JREF as well.
 
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On the matter of Oswald, he stands accused of murder.
He doesn't stand at all. He's dead.

It is not exceptional to suggest that he could be innocent of the charge.
It would be exceptional for a CTist to provide compelling evidence for it that would overcome the enormous bulk of evidence for his guilt. Do you suppose any of the CTists will ever do that?

I don't agree on the characterization of 'exceptional claim'. The Warren Commission, its methods and its findings, have been subject to controversy as soon as intelligent observers examined them.
Nope, you don't get to define who is intelligent and who isn't based on your own religion.

If I wanted to echo JayUtah's mantra "accepted by whom?"

I presume you are one person who accepts it. Correct me if I'm wrong.

But other people do not accept it including a majority of persons as shown in poll after poll.

As the Warren Report is only supported by a minority of people, why not shouldn't we conclude that accepting it is the exceptional claim?
You also don't get to fringe reset the burden of proof. It still belongs with those who want to "exonerate" Oswald despite the huge and overwhelming body of evidence showing his guilt.

No, I am perfectly happy to discuss it. I am not the one calling for people's credentials before they can make a judgement about anything related to this.
You were asked what were your qualifications for defining some arbitrary burden of proof standard to the Warren Commission proceedings. That's when you began whining. Answer the question.
 
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The problem with LHO being the most likely suspect is that even if you try to find loopholes, as CTs seem to enjoy, unless a more convincing suspect is put forwards, Oswald will remain the most convincing suspect by being the only suspect against whom any objective evidence can be raised.

History is not a trail. It is a comparison of possibilities. Suspects are not discounted from history, their probability is reassessed.
 
...a rhetorical device...

If you're going to copy words and phrases from Jay that you don't understand, you should ask about their meanings. I noticed you did the same thing with the word "strawman" in an earlier post. Using it without comprehending its meaning led to some nonsensical sentences on your part.
 
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