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Moderated JFK conspiracy theories: it never ends III

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The point of eliminating suspects is to focus attention on other suspects that the evidence suggests might be responsible. You have no other suspects. You don't even have a coherent direction for where the evidence points, if not to Oswald. You say it points "away" from him. That's not a direction, and therefore not a useful analysis.

Characterize it any way you like. You are welcome to your opinion.

If you want to claim it is useless in crime investigation to eliminate suspects, you are going against all reason.

No. No one is advocating that. Straw man.

No one is advocating ending the investigation into Kennedy's murder with an exoneration of Oswald. So right back at you! ;)

And I've made it very clear why an evaluation of more facts than you're willing to consider still paints Lane as a liar.

Sadly, none of these 'facts' ever seem to make it into your posts. Why would that be?

I'm not reading minds. You're overtly stating your opinions as if they were fact.

If you say so, it must be a fact. [/sarcasm]

I substantiated my characterization of the JFK conspiracy theorist's typical approach by citing your own posts. It is not a straw man.

Play the ball, not the man.

By your "people of the book" comment I took you to mean that people who disagree with you do so only out of some pseudo-religious attachment to the Warren Commission. When you are able to substantiate your quips to the same extent as I, you may consider them equivalent. Until then I suggest you withdraw the characterization.

I'm happy to do so when the whole 'conspiracy theorist' meme gets dropped.

I'm not asking you to. I'm simply asking you to reveal the foundation underlying your judgment. In response you keep waffling about intelligence. You won't answer my actual question.

I read the accusation about Mark Lane, after some pages of vague insinuations it becomes apparent it's supposedly based on his testimony about a conversation with Helen Markham. Looking at the testimony, it appears Lane correctly summarized it, and the claims that Lane lied are specious.

Is that plain enough?

So then do you withdraw the insinuation that you are being attacked simply because you do not agree with the other posters?

If you are willing to withdraw your insinuations about me, I will happily join you in raising the level of debate to a more dignified plane.

After you, my dear Alphonse!

I'm willing to let the readers judge which of us has better reasoning.

As am I! ;)
 
This is an absolutely silly idea. We absolutely should not just accept information because it is possible you choose to believe that author.

Tell it to JayUtah - he's the one who thinks we should treat Ayton or Posner's opinions as if they were facts, because he is satisfied they are credible.

Any information you quote can and should be put under reasonable scrutiny. We absolutely should not accept an authors take on an interview if the full transcript shows something entirely different.

It may be inconvenient to you. You may not like people disagreeing with you or the one or two books you happen to be passionate about. But any claim, any citation, any deduction you wish to post must be shown to withstand scrutiny.

You have shown remarkably thin skin over every disagreement that has been had with anything you post. Simply commanding people to accept your wisdom is not going to aid you convincing them of anything.

I haven't been commanding anyone to do anything. :confused:

You must have me confused with someone else. :boggled:

I've merely expressed my opinion and supported it with reason and facts. Perhaps that comes off as 'thin skinned' when I express myself with equal freedom as my interlocutors enjoy.

Now it may be inconvenient to some that I have come to different conclusions on certain subjects than they have, or that authors you might respect I am less than respectful towards, or the one or two books you feel strongly about. But those are the breaks.
 
Because it's the most reasonable conclusion with all the available evidence.

I don't agree. But it's not my burden of proof to prove a negative.

No, it isn't a meaningless thing to say. It's a chargeable offense should the district attorney had chosen to pursue it.

Lots of people left Dealey Plaza after the shooting. That's a lot of people going to jail.

Did I say those crimes were murder or even the equivalent of murder? Those would all be separate crimes that he could be charged with in addition to murder. And they probably aren't the full list of crimes he could have been charged with, either.

Indeed, some prosecutors are very inventive in making up things to charge people with, when they get a notion to.

All too often Oswald accusers have suggested that things like that are indicative of guilt for murder. I'm sorry if I jumped to the conclusion you were pursuing that angle.

Strawman. To the best of my knowledge no one here has claimed that the evidence was unassailable.

It certainly isn't.
 
No one has ever advocated wild-eyed speculation. However identifying other suspects is not a requirement. It's a consequence.

Yes. And be careful not to put the cart before the horse.

Again, no one is suggesting you do that.

That seems to be the message of the plaintive 'Without Oswald to accuse, we'll have no one!'

I say let the truth be known.

But the point is then to turn that time and those resources on solving the crime. I have yet to see a JFK conspiracy theorist who has any interest whatsoever in solving JFK's murder.

Then you are singularly unfamiliar with Warren Report critics. Published ones, at least.

Police keep investigating the crime after eliminating a suspect. Is that really not making sense to you?

Of course it does. Has anyone suggested otherwise? I certainly haven't.

So convince the people who do have those powers that you have a case. Conspiracy authors purport to have vastly more evidence than the Warren Commission, developed in the subsequent decades. They claim to have far better insight into the evidence the Commission did see. With all that purported advancement, you still can't take a case to a prosecuting attorney and open an investigation?

When you do some reading up on what Warren Report critics have been doing - and there is a lot of literature - you'll have an inkling of the complexities involved.

But it seems you haven't much familiarity with the case, based on your characterizations of 'conspiracy theorists'.

Let me know when you decide to start doing that. Specifically let me know when a critical mass of serious historians or law enforcement professionals take you seriously.

Sure, and get in touch when you've read some significant portion of the critical literature in a couple of years, will ya?
 
Tell it to JayUtah - he's the one who thinks we should treat Ayton or Posner's opinions as if they were facts, because he is satisfied they are credible.



I haven't been commanding anyone to do anything. :confused:

You must have me confused with someone else. :boggled:

I've merely expressed my opinion and supported it with reason and facts. Perhaps that comes off as 'thin skinned' when I express myself with equal freedom as my interlocutors enjoy.

Now it may be inconvenient to some that I have come to different conclusions on certain subjects than they have, or that authors you might respect I am less than respectful towards, or the one or two books you feel strongly about. But those are the breaks.

No. You are the one who stated in this thread we should accept authors of your choosing. I am not confusing you with somebody else.

And yes, you do come off as thinned skinned when you ignore evidence of untruthful comments by lane, when you string out this prolonged argument with Jay, and so forth with out simply providing evidence for what ever counter claim you wish to make here.

At any point you could present a post in which you try to exonerate LHO, establish an alternate candidate, or otherwise refute the received wisdom. Instead you pick nits, lay foundations of guff and bluster endlessly with out substance.

Provide substance or admit you have none. It really is that simple to establish an iota of credibility here...
 
And perhaps we should retain the baby when throwing out the bathwater and possibly cede that some people who describe the only suspect against whom viable material (ie physical) evidence has been produced is the most likely suspect and a subject of almost certain probability.

You seem to like comparisons to Ripperology. So allow me to demonstrate the difference between Jack the Ripper and JFK:

We have physical, tangible, testable evidence against LHO that can be scrutinised on an objective level. In Ripperology we have none. We have a wealth of documentary evidence to describe the crime scenes, we have ample evidence of whom the police suspected, but none for why. We have exactly two witness statements of a person likely to be the Ripper.

And the similarity: In both we have a metric ton of thunder and noise that is itself meaningless.

Your posts tend to contain the latter. Either your own, or that of other sources who you mistakenly assume to be perfect as they are probably from the one book you read that your REALLY liked and thus REALLY want to believe.

If that is your assessment, perhaps you are engaging in pure psychological projection. I'm not sure why this 'belief in one book' meme gets such play here. But it is easy enough to throw right back.

Oswald is as close to being convicted as a historian can get. He is the most probable and only viable subject for suspicion. The body of evidence weighs too heavily upon him. So far, even if accepted at face value, nothing you have posted undermines that body of evidence.

Unless I lay the foundation for the possibility that a suspect could be exonerated by evidence, and the usefulness of doing so, I doubt it would be very persuasive to set forth ideas that are wholly alien to such accepted wisdom.

Thus far the major pushback I've been getting is that it is pointless to eliminate suspects in a criminal case until you have an alternative suspect specifically in mind I don't see that approach as being very useful or fruitful.

You seem to be under the impression there will one day be a single piece of evidence that will exonerate Oswald. That is not the case. That piece of evidence will be added to body of evidence, but you would still have to explain the totality of evidence.

Naturally, if there were evidence that exonerated one suspect, the other evidence doesn't disappear. But the meaning of other evidence would change. As in the thought experiment - if Oswald were eliminated as a suspect - what would be implied by the remaining evidence about events surrounding the assassination would take on a radically different context. Things once thought to point at Oswald could be seen as pointing at someone else.

You can talk large about theoretically eliminating suspects, but you offer no practical reason or way that the entire weight of evidence could be ignored.

In simple terms you may push the suspect a little down the sliding scale of probability, but you will not eliminate him with a single piece of evidence.

Thanks for your input.
 
No. You are the one who stated in this thread we should accept authors of your choosing. I am not confusing you with somebody else.

Perhaps you should have read JayUtah's post that I was responding to. He suggests we should accept what his blogger writes because JayUtah accepts it. I only ask to be accorded the same privileges.

And yes, you do come off as thinned skinned when you ignore evidence of untruthful comments by lane, when you string out this prolonged argument with Jay, and so forth with out simply providing evidence for what ever counter claim you wish to make here.

No 'untruthful' statements from Lane have been produced. Only some vague things - the only specific one had to do with Markham, which I showed was a fair summary of what she told him over the phone.

So somehow disproving false claims that Lane is a liar is being 'thin skinned'?

At any point you could present a post in which you try to exonerate LHO, establish an alternate candidate, or otherwise refute the received wisdom. Instead you pick nits, lay foundations of guff and bluster endlessly with out substance.

Guff and bluster, like you're engaging in now? Geez, I should fit right in.

Provide substance or admit you have none. It really is that simple to establish an iota of credibility here...

So far I've substantiated my claim and disproven the anti-Lane insanity.

Why would I worry about winning the approval of people who consider Gerald 'Plagiarist' Posner an honest arbiter of fact?
 
Perhaps you should have read JayUtah's post that I was responding to. He suggests we should accept what his blogger writes because JayUtah accepts it. I only ask to be accorded the same privileges.

No. Jay gave his own reasons in that post and others for his point of view. He asked you to stop dismissing the sources simply for being bloggers.

No 'untruthful' statements from Lane have been produced. Only some vague things - the only specific one had to do with Markham, which I showed was a fair summary of what she told him over the phone.

So only vague, except when they are specific? And what you "showed" does not match the full testimony.

Tsk tsk.
So far I've substantiated my claim and disproven the anti-Lane insanity.

No you have not. And disputing the portrayal of evidence is not insanity.
Disagreeing with your fanboy glee for Lane is not insanity. Once again you show yourself to be thin skinned. People disagree with your esteem for a particular author, calling them insane for a reasonable interpretation of his texts as being untruthful given such examples is entirely rational.



Why would I worry about winning the approval of people who consider Gerald 'Plagiarist' Posner an honest arbiter of fact?

I am not particularly bothered if anybody approves of you or not. If you care to read my posts you will notice that what I wish to know is if you will, at any point, be offering anything OTHER than bickering about which authors you happen to hold in esteem.

Do you have a theory and evidence you wish to offer?

But, if you can quote a post in which Posner is described as an honest arbiter of fact I will be grateful.

I can only find IRatant asking if you read a particular book, in which he found a particular section to be useful. These are not equatable.
 
Yes, that is a claim frequently made.
Exactly. Your fervent wish that the facts were otherwise notwithstanding.

But that which you assert without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
At least you know why your wish that Oswald not be the presidential assassin is being dismissed.


And you may even believe that.
That's the great thing about facts, they continue to exist even when the CTists stop believing in them.

Of course I agree that opinions don't trump facts.
Ah good, you do know that your unsupported opinions of LHO's innocence don't suddenly make facts go away. Thank you for your admission.

Thus far we have your repeated confession of faith.

The facts? Nowhere to be seen.
LOL. Are you still mad at reality?



They may have been presented and dismissed by true believers in the Warren Commission. People of the book can be a hard sell.
And you still have nothing to back up your faith based ideas of Oswald's innocence?

Another claim by you, without even the hint of factual support. I can see where this is going...



Why is this so important to you? Am I throwing you off your game plan?
You really don't have a hypothesis for who else fits the overwhelming preponderance of the evidence that would meet your own standards for guilt?

Do you know any other CTists who might be able to shed some light on it and be useful?
 
I don't agree. But it's not my burden of proof to prove a negative.
You're incorrect.

Lots of people left Dealey Plaza after the shooting. That's a lot of people going to jail.
Can you list those who bought Oswald's assassination rifle found in Oswald's workplace with Oswald's fingerprints on it? How about the ones who murdered officer Tippit with Oswald's revolver which he soon after used to attempt to murder other officers who came to arrest him?
 
Proudfootz, please stop me if I'm wrong, but what I'm reading so far is that you don't have any idea who might have killed Kennedy if not Oswald, or how Oswald became a person of interest or a suspect in the commission of the assassination/murder/attempted murder. You want to insert some reasonable doubt but your attempt so far is to try to discredit the testimony of an eye witness, which you failed to do, without attempting to address the rest of the evidence against him.

Is this about the shape of it?

If it is, why should anyone take you or your arguments seriously?
.
I see the hangup with Markham to be the aw-**** that negates the 1000 atta-boys that point to Oswald, and only Oswald, as the shooter.
It's just another example of invincible ignorance.
 
He suggests we should accept what his blogger writes because JayUtah accepts it.

Nope. I'll present my own arguments, if it's quite all right with you.

So far I've substantiated my claim and disproven the anti-Lane insanity.

According to whom?

Why would I worry about winning the approval of people who consider Gerald 'Plagiarist' Posner an honest arbiter of fact?

Ad hominem.
 
Sure. And since we're engaging in hypotheticals anyhow, hypothetically speaking who do you think was really responsible for killing Kennedy and Tippit if not Oswald? Where did they fire the weapon if not at his place of work? How did Oswald become the prime suspect? Was Oswald complicit in some way with the crimes with which he was accused or was he completely innocent of wrong doing?

...
.
There is the Markham testimony... saw the shooting :) and Virginia and Barbara Davis..Oswald shook the empties from his pistol while crossing their lawn.. William Scoggins saw Tippit fall, and watched Oswald run past. Domingo Benavides saw Tippit get shot, from 15 feet away. Ted Callaway saw Oswald running with the pistol, and called to Oswald. Identified him in the lineup that evening. Warren Reynolds watched Oswald leave the shooting scene. William Arthur Smith, B.M. Patterson, Jack R. Tatum saw Oswald leaving the scene.
Other than these, there's another witness who remained anonymous, being involved with a woman other than his wife at her home, saw Oswald leaving the scene.
From "Case Closed".....:D
 
Characterize it any way you like. You are welcome to your opinion.

My opinion happens to be shared by the rest of the relevant historians.

If you want to claim it is useless in crime investigation to eliminate suspects, you are going against all reason.

I've lost count of how many times I've corrected you on this straw man. It is useless to eliminate the prime suspect and then stop investigating.

No one is advocating ending the investigation into Kennedy's murder with an exoneration of Oswald.

So what investigating have you and others done in the past several decades that has identified any other suspects? I hear from you and from practically every other conspiracy theorist who has come and gone at JREF that trying to find who actually killed Kennedy is not a focus.

If you say so, it must be a fact. [/sarcasm]

Straw man [/logic].

Play the ball, not the man.

Quit whining. You're not being mistreated and you're not being attacked personally. If you believe otherwise, report the post. If not, the horse is long dead.

I'm happy to do so when the whole 'conspiracy theorist' meme gets dropped.

Asked and answered.

I read the accusation...

Not the point at hand. Defend your ability to tell us that Ball improperly examined Markham.
 
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Posner references Lane 19 times, with citations to the pertinent WCR references.
Then it should be easy for you to pick one of these "19" references to support you're claim that Mark Lane just plain lies. You seam somewhat reluctant do do just that? Maybe you're a little bit shy?

I'll leave it to the "researchers" to collect their own information, rather than spoon-feed them.
You are the one with the claim, and therefore the one who need to support it with evidence. Don't be shy.
 
I don't agree. But it's not my burden of proof to prove a negative.

You don't have to prove a negative, but you do have to explain how you came to your conclusion.

proudfootz said:
Lots of people left Dealey Plaza after the shooting. That's a lot of people going to jail.

No. Just one. The perpetrator.

proudfootz said:
Indeed, some prosecutors are very inventive in making up things to charge people with, when they get a notion to.

You obviously don't know much about the judicial system, then.

proudfootz said:
It certainly isn't.

There is no such thing as unassailable evidence for any crime, as far as I'm aware. That's why we have appellate courts.
 
No point in going there until we have laid a foundation.

There is already a foundation for Oswald's guilt, you failed to provide one for his innocence.

proudfootz said:
Good. Supposing the provenance was impeccable (this is a thought experiment after all). Would this not be a useful thing to know?

Yes, it would be.

proudfootz said:
Sometimes that is true. Sometimes it isn't.

But suppose it only exonerates one suspect, but does indict anyone else in particular?

So you're using established evidence to try indicating that maybe Oswald was innocent, but refuse to use it to figure out who might be guilty instead? Do you even care who did or did not kill these two men?
 
If you imagine investigating the murder of President Kennedy is unimportant as a criminal matter or a a matter of history, you are wasting your time here.

Where did I state that I believe such a thing? I believe very much the contrary. I'm saying that's what appears to be common among JFK conspiracists -- that there is no interest among them to actually solve the crime.

As always, but no need to hold everyone back while you catch up.

No need for hostility. Simply state what the point was and the argument you believe supports it. By the strikethrough you apparently tried to draw some parallel, but since you opted for cleverness rather than clarity, I'm asking you to state the argument clearly.

What is your experience and expertise? Stop evading this very important question!

Tu quoque.

Why would you find that to be insufficient - you haven't explained why you find it unacceptable to accept a commonly held and widely understood methodology of discovering facts.

You're shifting the burden of proof. Commonly held and widely understood does not mean it is mandatory in this instance. There are plenty of other means of discovering facts, similarly widely understood and commonly practiced. Why, among all those, have you selected a legal standard of proof (and I assume you mean the reasonable doubt standard) to use outside a courtroom?

Yes, indeed. It is because of the possible consequences that law standards are so high. Why do you reject such a standard in a matter where it is a crime under investigation?

Because a crime under investigation follows different rules than a crime being tried in a court of law. The former rules are more lenient and directed toward a different end -- i.e., the synthesis of a number of plausible scenarios from the evidence. The purpose of the court trial is not to discover fact in general, but to discover fact relevant only to one particular defendant -- i.e., to test one scenario and that scenario only.

The reason I question your choice of standard here is that you claim to want to investigate the murder of JFK, but you apply a standard of proof that is only useful for attempting to exonerate one suspect.

The burden of proof lies on the would-be prosecutors of Oswald.

The burden of proof for which standard of evidence is appropriate for discussing the facts of the Kennedy assassination belongs to the person proposing the standard. You're proposing the standard, therefore it's your burden to defend the choice. Turning it back on your critics to say "why not?" doesn't satisfy that burden.

You still haven't answered my questions. Stop evading.

And as I said, stop rewriting my arguments to suit what you want them to be. I'm not answering questions that follow only from stuff you just make up.

Where have I used these words 'improper' or 'irregular' - you seem to be addicted to trying to make it appear as if I've written things not found in any of my posts.

Weasel words. You've spent page after page telling us how Ball's examination of Markham was irregular, suspicious, or questionable. Pick whatever words or sentiment you want that expresses how you characterized the bottom of page 310. But don't suddenly pretend you never made any such argument unless it is to withdraw it.

I simply reproduced parts of Markham's testimony excised from your presentations which appear to indicate it took some effort to get her to say what was required of her.

But you insist that this "effort" is somehow salient (perhaps suspicious) in and of itself. You've suggested that Ball spoonfed her the "right" answer, and that she was poised to commit otherwise to the record but for his persistence. When I ask why the bottom of pg. 310 is salient and how you're able to know that this examination has the properties you attribute to it, you scramble to not have to answer.

I produced the strangely ignored part of her testimony and stated clearly and unequivocally how it appears. You seem to disagree, but on what basis is anyone's guess.

For the second time, not "strangely ignored" -- just placed in the proper context (i.e., the discussion at the top of pg. 311) that you seem to always leave out.

It's an inane question useless to the question under consideration. Why you waste your time on this is your business.

Because I made a claim to that effect and you challenged it -- twice. If you want to withdraw your challenge, be my guest. Otherwise cough up the evidence of the broad support JFK conspiracism has among relevant historians.

It's wholly irrelevant. Taking a vote among historians doesn't change matters of fact.

I didn't ask for a vote. I asked for evidence that your methods and conclusions are widely accepted among the relevant practitioners. It is important only that you bristled when I suggested they weren't. Withdraw your challenge, thereby admitting that JFK conspiracism is a fringe pursuit, and we'll be good to go. Otherwise supply the requested evidence and stop pretending the request is improper.

It's just silly to attack people for motives you ascribe to them, when there's a million dollars on the table for someone who can read minds are you appear to claim to do.

Link to the post where I claim to read minds. I noted that I observe a pattern among JFK conspiracists when arguing the point about standard of proof. You asked for evidence of that pattern and I gave you some. You tried to deflect it by saying it had nothing to with Oswald.

Now you've moved the goalposts - at first it was 'useless' to even try to eliminate suspects in a murder investigation, now it would be useful if after X amount of time another suspect is named.

No I haven't moved the goalposts. Rather you've finally abandoned the straw man you've been trying to foist. Now that you're finally playing on the same field as the rest of us, do you understand why I find it salient that in decades of investigation there has arisen no consensus whatsoever on any alternate suspects?

Do you now claim that among those who argue that Oswald was either part of a larger conspiracy or merely a patsy that none of them have tried to solve the crime and name other suspects?

If you honestly think that, then you are honestly mistaken.

Yet when I ask you to name the other suspects that have been developed, you tell me you can't, you won't, and to do so would be irresponsible speculation.

So make up your mind. Do you have other suspects or not?
 
Then it should be easy for you to pick one of these "19" references to support you're claim that Mark Lane just plain lies.

Maybe he doesn't want to limit the examination of Lane to just one instance. Maybe he wants you to examine all 19 and draw a conclusion based on that. This would be especially appropriate given that your protest has been that so few examples were presented. Now you're being directed to 19 of them, and you want him to pare it down?

Honestly how hard is it to obtain a book and go to the references, as directed, where you have been promised there await you multiple references to a discussion of Lane and his treatment of the evidence?

You seam somewhat reluctant do do just that? Maybe you're a little bit shy?

You seem reluctant to obtain the book and consult it. Perhaps you are shy as well?

You are the one with the claim, and therefore the one who need to support it with evidence.

He has. You simply won't go look at it.
 
Then it should be easy for you to pick one of these "19" references to support you're claim that Mark Lane just plain lies. You seam somewhat reluctant do do just that? Maybe you're a little bit shy?


You are the one with the claim, and therefore the one who need to support it with evidence. Don't be shy.
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Page 408 in your bible comic book. "4 shots..."
And.
This will be new to you...
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol1/pdf/HSCA_Vol1_0908_6_Firearms.pdf
 
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