Atheists who don't hate religion

[Frozenwolf150]

Bad people will do bad things regardless. Good people will do good things regardless. But Religion makes good people do bad things or at the very least acquiesce to bad things being done or have apathy towards evil.

Religion is not the only kind of ideology or irrational belief that can make good people do bad things. People who kill others over nationalism, politics, territory, natural resources, or revenge also feel justified, and that their cause is righteous.

If I shoot you and then carry you to the hospital to be saved, am I good or evil? Religion does the same. It caused in the past and still on in many ways causes most of the trouble which it then proceeds to try and save you from.

In terms of doctrines like Original Sin, I agree.

Religion is a DRUG. If someone is addicted to a drug or is an alcoholic but is happy and contented to be in a stupor do you think this is a healthy state of existing?

Refer to what I said about the drug analogy earlier.

Religion is nothing but a brain vitiating VIRUS and we need to counteract its spread and we need to inoculate as many as we can against its Petri Dish Effect.

It's seriously a waste of my time and energy to go through my life, feeling suspicion, distrust, and animosity towards followers of different religions because I think they're deluded and potentially dangerous. We're all human in the end.

Religion fosters, demands and facilitates the Herd and Hive mentality. Unfortunately herds tend to stampede and hives tend to swarm.

So do a lot of other things. There's always that risk. However, humans are still social animals, and nobody can survive alone.

When people are encouraged to abandon reason there is no accounting as to what else they can abandon, willingly or unwillingly.

True, however I wouldn't go so far as to say that I have a monopoly on reason simply by virtue of being an atheist. I could be wrong too. I certainly have my own share of irrational beliefs.

When people’s epistemological foundations are faulty then Cognitive Dissonance is always a risk unless they are never exposed to anything that might challenge the fabric of their delusions. Isn’t it better to build one’s epistemology on more valid and solid grounds so as to avoid pain when the delusions are inevitably shattered by the world of science we live in today? Maybe people are unhappy because of fractured puerile delusions and immature illusions. If they never had these faulty ideas maybe they would have had a better grasp on reality??

I agree that we're lucky to live in a world where we're free to challenge the claims and assertions of organized religions. However, it's still important that both sides address each other as people, rather than sticking labels on each other.

Just as nice people (albeit benighted) are able to interpret their scriptures in a nice way, so can others interpret it in a bad way. And like in a petri dish, bad bacteria will feed and thrive in the environment of nice sugary benign faithfuls and will spread and finally become a virulent poison. So what we need is to make the sugary medium less hospitable to those bacteria......how to do it?????

To use the analogy of the murderous doctor that some have brought up, a more accurate analogy would be 99 doctors who save lives vs. 1 doctor who kills people. Should we do away with the entire medical profession because of that 1 bad doctor? Or should we instead push for systemic reforms and greater transparency?

Religions when they had power, they abused it and ran amuck. Don’t kid yourself. Do you think if they had the power they would refrain from outlawing any business on Sunday? Do you think they would allow abortion?

I would argue that religions still have a lot of power, it's just that the people have changed, and religions have been reinterpreted to better fit life in the modern age. Look at the USA. The majority of voters are Christian, as are the majority of politicians. So what's stopping them all from abusing power and running amok? Why are you and I not dead now?

We still till today are suffering from religions’ past abuses in numerous ways throughout the globe. I am sure if they ever get that power again we will all know how insidiously pernicious the Petri Dish Effect can be all over again.

The abuses are not the complete picture of history though.

 

[Leumas]

Religion is not the only kind of ideology or irrational belief that can make good people do bad things. People who kill others over nationalism, politics, territory, natural resources, or revenge also feel justified, and that their cause is righteous.


In terms of doctrines like Original Sin, I agree.


Refer to what I said about the drug analogy earlier.


It's seriously a waste of my time and energy to go through my life, feeling suspicion, distrust, and animosity towards followers of different religions because I think they're deluded and potentially dangerous. We're all human in the end.


So do a lot of other things. There's always that risk. However, humans are still social animals, and nobody can survive alone.


True, however I wouldn't go so far as to say that I have a monopoly on reason simply by virtue of being an atheist. I could be wrong too. I certainly have my own share of irrational beliefs.


I agree that we're lucky to live in a world where we're free to challenge the claims and assertions of organized religions. However, it's still important that both sides address each other as people, rather than sticking labels on each other.


To use the analogy of the murderous doctor that some have brought up, a more accurate analogy would be 99 doctors who save lives vs. 1 doctor who kills people. Should we do away with the entire medical profession because of that 1 bad doctor? Or should we instead push for systemic reforms and greater transparency?


I would argue that religions still have a lot of power, it's just that the people have changed, and religions have been reinterpreted to better fit life in the modern age. Look at the USA. The majority of voters are Christian, as are the majority of politicians. So what's stopping them all from abusing power and running amok? Why are you and I not dead now?


The abuses are not the complete picture of history though.

Frozenwolf,

Please read my post in full. It is a reply to your various posts. I took a lot of time writing it and if you are only going to read the summary and respond to that then you have missed the entire point of the post.

Please do me the respect of reading the entire post which I wrote just for you out of concern for you and the internal struggle that you are going through right now.

A quick reply to all your replies above is already in the post if only you would read all of it instead of just the summary.

Regards and respect.

 

[Leumas]

Yes, well, it's actually rather known that the taste buds work differently at different ages. Brussels sprouts in particular will taste the more bitter, the younger you are.

Still, nevertheless, some of us can use the "dislike" meaning of "hate" for those.

I for one pretty much grew up on far nastier tasting antibiotics, and if you want a bigger horror, picture getting an infection that's resistant to everything but streptomycin when barely more than a baby. Injections with that actually cause necrosis of nearby tissue, and hurt about as much as that sounds. It feels like being branded. A couple of times a day. My first memories of being on this world are of HOWLING at various landmarks along the way to the hospital to get those injections, which I had learned very quickly to associate with the fact that it's going to hurt like the seven hells next, if I see those. So, uh, yeah, getting some bitter food wasn't half as bad as getting some far more bitter pills, which in turn still beat the streptomycin experience. I didn't spend much time plotting the brutal demise of my food

Ouch....

And they still insist on calling it Intelligent Design and want us to believe that it is so rather than an utterly imbecilic and incompetent one even if we were to grant them the "design" wishful thinking.

 

[Delvo]

Religion is a factor. Is it the only factor?

Religion is not the only kind of ideology or irrational belief that can make good people do bad things...

So do a lot of other things.

How does this matter? Whatever other bad influences you have in mind, they aren't the subject here.

 

[JaysonR]

It doesn't much matter. Humans will continue to fabricate, modify and adhere to religous constructs until the species' neurology grossly alters and refuses embuement an affect upon analysis.
As long as that remains, religion will appear; even if once removed in institution.

The struggle, as always, belongs in law - how does the society wish to regulate this enterprise and relatedsocial behaviors?
That should be ever-changing and reflect the society's identity, and largely does.

 

[HansMustermann]

Ouch....

And they still insist on calling it Intelligent Design and want us to believe that it is so rather than an utterly imbecilic and incompetent one even if we were to grant them the "design" wishful thinking.

Well, I wasn't as much going for a critique of intelligent design, as just illustrating the various degrees to which one can hate something. It can mean the kind of sith hatred for being hauled out of bed for some serious pain, or it can mean just disliking my food.

But yeah, ID is a whole can of worms by itself. I can't even imagine how anyone who knows any biology at all can go for that idiocy.

 

[marplots]

I work for a Lutheran charity organization. At my interview, I told the guy, "By the way, I'm an atheist. Is that a problem?" He looked at me and said, "Nobody around here cares. We just want someone who can do the job." There is zero proselytizing in this organization. No one tries to convert anyone else; matter of fact, I have never even heard a religious conversation or discussion. We run a bunch of thrift shops and use the money to fund group homes for disabled people. Some of our clients that are able to actually work with us, doing light assembly and packaging or working in the thrift stores. That's pretty much it.

Anyone who has a problem with this outfit because it has "Lutheran" in the name is a bozo.

Maybe they just realized that not everyone is really suitable for God's kingdom...

 

[JoeMorgue]

So basically bad people will always do bad, so opossing any one reason/excuse/justification is unreasonable.

That's rather Wooish. Basically arguing that some percent of the population is just inherently bad and will find new reasons to be bad even if we remove the influences that cause them to be bad.

So basically there's just an arbitrary percent of "bad" people in the world we can't get rid of them because none of the factors in their badness are really factors.

 

[HansMustermann]

So basically bad people will always do bad, so opossing any one reason/excuse/justification is unreasonable.

That's rather Wooish. Basically arguing that some percent of the population is just inherently bad and will find new reasons to be bad even if we remove the influences that cause them to be bad.

So basically there's just an arbitrary percent of "bad" people in the world we can't get rid of them because none of the factors in their badness are really factors.

Wooish or not, I'd say more importantly it's a red herring.

1. Whether something is actually attainable or not, doesn't actually say one shouldn't like or dislike it. I mean, equally realistically we'll never be rid of people who are schizophrenic or retarded enough to propagate conspiracy theories. Doesn't mean that one should therefore learn to no longer dislike conspiracy theories.

Or we'll probably never be rid of people who want to screw a pre-teen child, but that doesn't mean we should all learn to like paedophilia.

2. Whether or not bad people still exist, there is a difference between them just being some bad people, and having an aura of normality and a big crowd of people to provide them with cover and legitimacy. There are much less opportunities to do harm in the name of X, when you don't have the, "ah, we're all X, maybe just some more than others" excuse.

3. Whether or not we'll actually be rid of every form of woo or bad ideology, we managed to contain some of them pretty well. Sure, there may still be no shortage of people who adhere to those ideologies or that particular woo, but at least they know they're not ok for the rest of society.

Often without even needing laws for that.

To use another Sam Harris example, again loosely from memory, there are people who believe that Elvis lives, or even think they have seen Elvis. But you don't have it permeating even academic discourse. You don't have people bringing it up at a job interview. You don't have people starting a date by informing you of their belief that Elvis lives. Why? We haven't passed any laws forbidding the belief that Elvis lives. But anyone who does any of that, immediately pays a price in ill concealed laughter.

Will we ever be rid of people who think that Elvis lives, or Bruce Lee lives, and so on? Probably never. A million years in the future, when nobody even remembers there ever was an Elvis, people will go on to believe that Xnorg who popularized the Wazamumba music style just faked his death, and verily they saw him just the other day.

But as long as they're essentially contained, they're not a problem.

 

[Delvo]

Basically arguing that some percent of the population is just inherently bad and will find new reasons to be bad even if we remove the influences that cause them to be bad.

Of course, because rates of various kinds of bad behaviors have never gone up or down, or differed between one community and another.

 

[JaysonR]

I didn't think religion equated to someone being bad.
I guess it doesn't much matter though, either way.

Go for it, have a gas and try to get rid of it.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Of course, because rates of various kinds of bad behaviors have never gone up or down, or differed between one community and another.

Indeed.

The problem with the "Everything is Vanilla!" Fallicy is that is requires one to bury one's head in the sand and pretend that every broad ideology has worked equally well, an assumption so far removed from reality as to be laughable.

It's the sort of wishy-washy weaksauce moral relativism that has been created as the kneejerk backlash to traditional "Decreed from On High" morality. After thousands of years of "morality" being this thing that was chisled in stone and brought down from the mountain from the proverbial burning bush and realizing that was rather stupid it seems some people swung to far in the other direction.

We are allowed to see shades of grey. Key word there "shades." We are not limited to seeing everything as stark black and white or seeing everything as the same shade of grey where everything is the same and no factor matters. Don't insist upon arbitrariness under the guise of nuance.

If not being some moral/intellectual coward that's afraid to point things which cause people to harm other people and insist everyone be the same makes me "mean" then just call me Mr. Meanie McMeanerson, 4th Earl of Meaness. I've been called worst for better reason and can still sleep at night.

 

[Chaos]

Maybe they just realized that not everyone is really suitable for God's kingdom...

Or maybe you are just wrong about these people? Has the thought ever entered your mind that religious people might actually be people, not stereotypes?

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Or maybe you are just wrong about these people? Has the thought ever entered your mind that religious people might actually be people, not stereotypes?

Ah, yes, the ordinary Joes who routinely tell me I'm going to spend eternity in agonizing pain? The ones who suggest that they'd help me "find out real quick that you're wrong about God"?

No, wait, those aren't stereotypes, they're my relatives. Sorry, my bad.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Theist: Go to Hell!

Atheist: Go to a library!

 

[HansMustermann]

Or maybe you are just wrong about these people? Has the thought ever entered your mind that religious people might actually be people, not stereotypes?

I'm not sure what ever gave you that idea, given what we've been talking about in this thread. Yes, people who believe in fairy tales are just people, but then so are the racists, the sexists, the neo-nazi, and so on. The KKK are just people too.

Nevertheless, some ideologies are more divisive than others. Some have more potential for harm than others. And some offer more cover and legitimacy to those who are truly deranged or evil.

 

[Howie Felterbush]

Maybe they just realized that not everyone is really suitable for God's kingdom...

Probably.

I hear it's kind of uptight up there. I need a more laid-back atmosphere.

 

[Jerrymander]

Well that's great.

Now what are the secular reasons for:

1. Opposing gay marriage
2. Opposing choice in abortion
3. Opposing contraception
4. Genital mutilation
5. Opposing science education
6. Limiting the rights of women

.... let's start with those.

In the cases of 1 and 6: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_determinism

 

[Leumas]

To slightly paraphrase Steven Weinberg

I call the above phenomenon the Petri Dish Effect.

A petri dish is a plate full of sugar. Sugar is a benign sweet thing. Unfortunately all it takes is a spot of bacteria and in a day it becomes a deadly virulent environment. Why? Because the bacteria fed on the sweet inane sugary sweetness.

Liberal and moderate theists are the sugar for the fundamentalists in the petri dish of politics and society. Even when there is a wall of separation between state and church, the wall won't stand for long when they have money to buy bulldozers to knock down the wall at its foundations.

They get this money out of the sugary sweet people who attend their Petri Dishes.
​

If you were a woman whose life was altered irreparably (most likely to the worst) due to one night of passion and laws that prevented her from correcting her mistake then you might not tend to forget the vitiating effects religion has on people. What is not usually realized is that it was religious organizations that affected her life by rallying people's opinions and feeding on the matrix of sugary solution that is the people who attend and support the Petri Dishes called religious institutions to vote and to pass laws or change laws.

[snip]

If you are currently thinking “but that is just extreme individuals”, then you have missed the point. It is religion that spoiled the thinking ability of these people so as to bring about their extremism and facilitate it with a Petri Dish of sugary people who gave them unwitting support whether silently with money and voting or actively.

[snip]
There are three ways one can do harm

• Directly by doing an action that harms.
• Indirectly
  • Actively - By aiding or facilitating another person to do harm.
  • Passively – By standing by and doing nothing to stop a harm.

[snip]

By giving money to the church they are facilitating it. By supporting it and not speaking out against any actions they are passively doing harm.

One instance of such indirect harm is by supporting the Church’s political view. Despite the fact that Churches are not supposed to disseminate or advocate any political party…they do. So by tacitly supporting a religious moron to become a president or governor or congressman or senator or even mayor they are causing harm on local and Global scales.

By paying the tithe or more to the Church they are helping to give it power that translates into influence. This enables the church to make life hell for women who want to have control over their bodies or adult homosexuals who want to live in peace with their lovers. Bringing power to bear in order to thwart any research (e.g. stem cell) becomes much easier for moneyed and powerful organizations that work actively to undermine science.

[snip]

• Religions when they had power, they abused it and ran amuck. Don’t kid yourself. Do you think if they had the power they would refrain from outlawing any business on Sunday? Do you think they would allow abortion?
• We still till today are suffering from religions’ past abuses in numerous ways throughout the globe. I am sure if they ever get that power again we will all know how insidiously pernicious the Petri Dish Effect can be all over again.

[snip]

Have a look at how insidiously pervasive their incessant and indefatigable efforts are.

If it were not for that Judge (and it is not over yet) how many women would have had their life irrevocably affected by the machinations of the virulent bacteria whose schemes and power manipulations have been facilitated by stupid (albeit nice) hapless worshipers who think that they and the bacteria feeding on them are doing the right thing?

It is because of their "niceness" and their herd ability that they think they have the right to dictate to EVERYONE their own immoral (yes I said immoral) dictates.

And it is not just the woman they affect, it is also the partner, the parents of the girl the parents of the man the future children of both and not least the child who is born.

So these nice people because of the delusions they call religion think they have the right to impose their own will on everyone they can stampede.

I doubt if you were the woman or the man being robbed of the right to decide for yourself about something that will impact the rest of your life, that you would think that religion is a benign thing.

Now think how many other insidious effects there are on a GLOBAL scale.

Louisiana is among 11 states that have passed similar laws, with courts recently ruling unconstitutional such measures in Alabama and Mississippi. Key parts of Texas law that would have shuttered most remaining clinics in that state was blocked by a federal judge on Friday.

Abortion rights campaigners, along with the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists and the American Medical Association, say admitting privileges laws impose medically unnecessary requirements on doctors.

Anti-abortion advocates have countered that the measures are intended to protect women's health, though some have also lauded their effect of shuttering clinics.

Only one doctor who performs abortions in Louisiana currently has hospital admitting privileges, the Center for Reproductive Rights said.

If all other doctors in the state are forced to stop performing abortions, that doctor, fearful for his safety, would stop carrying out the procedure, the group said.

 

[JaysonR]

It is ridiculous to assume religion will ever be absent, given our current neurology.
We literally have to change human neurological profile to remove religion from happening.

Honestly, the only way I know of to forcibly stop the human brain from having the potential to appreciate and create religion (as well as, yes, be capable of being manipulated by religion, and self-help gurus, and politicians, and etc...) is to perform a prefrontal lobotomy and separate the amygdala from the temporal lobe.
Honestly; that doesn't really make very functioning humans which are better than not doing that, so I'm a bit hesitant on prescribing mass lobotomies.

It is best to stick to legal contests and legislation; to join those movements which you support against motions or movements in which you oppose in a endless succession of social law.