Michael Brown Shooting

[Mumbles]

If you accept the sound recording, then turning round and charging seems unlikely. What seems more likely is:

6 rounds fired at Brown fleeing

Pause when he stops and turns around

2 deliberate shots which hit Brown in the arm

2 rapid shots into the top of Brown's head


If Brown started charging then it would seem more likely that those last 4 shots would have been much more rapid.

Would a court consider the 3 groupings of shots separately? ie 6 rounds at a fleeing unarmed man as attempted murder, 2 deliberate shots as self-defence, final 2 shots as ?

I would think that if the first volley was attempted murder, then it wouldn't matter whether or not Brown charged the officer - if he surrenders, then it's murder, and if he charges back, then he's attempting self-defense, and killing him is a murder.

Of course, police have wider leeway to use violence than the average person, since they pretty much need it.

 

[Monketi Ghost]

If you accept the sound recording, then turning round and charging seems unlikely. What seems more likely is:

6 rounds fired at Brown fleeing

Pause when he stops and turns around

2 deliberate shots which hit Brown in the arm

2 rapid shots into the top of Brown's head


If Brown started charging then it would seem more likely that those last 4 shots would have been much more rapid.

Would a court consider the 3 groupings of shots separately? ie 6 rounds at a fleeing unarmed man as attempted murder, 2 deliberate shots as self-defence, final 2 shots as ?

If, if, if...

 

[LTC8K6]

Do any of the posters using the words murder or execution believe that the murder case against Wilson has been proved beyond reasonable doubt?

If you were on a jury and had only this evidence ( and no explanation of why any other evidence was not introduced in court) would you find Wilson guilty of murder.

I don't think there is any way to prove murder. The prosecution has to prove murder.

Voluntary manslaughter would be the most likely charge.

 

[LTC8K6]

If you accept the sound recording, then turning round and charging seems unlikely. What seems more likely is:

6 rounds fired at Brown fleeing

Pause when he stops and turns around

2 deliberate shots which hit Brown in the arm

2 rapid shots into the top of Brown's head


If Brown started charging then it would seem more likely that those last 4 shots would have been much more rapid.

Would a court consider the 3 groupings of shots separately? ie 6 rounds at a fleeing unarmed man as attempted murder, 2 deliberate shots as self-defence, final 2 shots as ?

The pause is much more likely to see if the rounds had any effect, and to give Brown a chance to stop, and to aim again when he didn't, imo.

 

[Jim_MDP]

If you accept the sound recording, then turning round and charging seems unlikely. What seems more likely is:

6 rounds fired at Brown fleeing

Pause when he stops and turns around

2 deliberate shots which hit Brown in the arm

2 rapid shots into the top of Brown's head


If Brown started charging then it would seem more likely that those last 4 shots would have been much more rapid.

Would a court consider the 3 groupings of shots separately? ie 6 rounds at a fleeing unarmed man as attempted murder, 2 deliberate shots as self-defence, final 2 shots as ?

Hey Aber,

First, you're ascribing to me the claim of "charging" which I don't believe I've used in this thread. I've tried to stay neutral so far, unlike Ginger who twice has hand waved away my thought that Brown may have been looking down at his arm, without my taking a position on his "position".

Second... you seem to have included a pause or two in your scenario which is not borne out by the audio (still to be verified). There's no gap which would allow what you ascribe to Wilson's thought process at the end. You don't change "point of aim" that way.

Sidenote...
When the audio went public a day ago, I happened to be in the thread and at first thought 6+5, and minutes later revised that to 6+4 (since confirmed it seems, tinnitus ain't that bad I guess ) but I still run scenarios to see what might fit. Wish we had audio that included that described "shot in the car".

edit - I didn't put that "mad face" smiley at the top and it doesn't show in my edit window. Sorry Aber, it's not meant for you and I can't seem to edit it out.

 

[Monketi Ghost]

You know what else has no place?

It's strange to see such an effort to maximize the aggressive theft, which we KNOW occurred, while at the same time minimizing the imagined bad actions of the cop, when we simply don't know.
That's bias in its raw, pure form.

It would be hard to make Brown look worse than his own actions make him look. Because his actions make him look like an aggressive, violent thief. Which is at least in part what he chose to be in the final countdown. That's truth in its raw, pure form, acknowledged by everyone actually involved. Including his parents and their lawyer.

 

[LTC8K6]

Two hours after the incident?

Yes, they are also on the police reports. Called in as "shots on Canfield" and then "4 to 6 shots".

There was apparently also sporadic gunfire in the area during much of the time the police were there.

 

[This is The End]

That is true... it is not "normal". But then again, when I pick up smokes, I invariably pay for them. That's "normal" for me.

Aggressively approaching a firing weapon is ludicrous to me, but anyone who claims it has never happened is an idiot, and I'm not talking about "combat" examples.

Not claiming that's what Brown did (don't know), but it does happen.

I specifically said it is possible. The possibility even rises because there is a claim. That doesn't mean we can't point out that it is not the most likely thing to do in a normal scenario, even one that includes a person who just stole some cigars.

Also, you are equating the not normalcy of stealing cigars with the not normalcy of running at gunfire. I would assume the former is much more frequent of the two "not normal" activities.

 

[This is The End]

It would be hard to make Brown look worse than his own actions make him look. Because his actions make him look like an aggressive, violent thief. Which is at least in part what he chose to be in the final countdown. That's truth in its raw, pure form, acknowledged by everyone actually involved. Including his parents and their lawyer.

What does that have to do with the people who are maximizing the incident?

You should have an equal problem with people who are maximizing the incident as you have with people are minimizing the incident.

The incident should means exactly what it does, nothing more and nothing less.

 

[pakeha]

Actually, walking in the middle of the street is a passive- aggressive act. I was going to compare it to playing ridiculously loud music earlier.
If you happen to live someplace where you don't get exposed to it very much, good for you. But it is an aggressive act sometimes.

I do not live in Ferguson, so I don't have first hand knowledge of wether or not it is a "thing"
there. If the behavior is the same as it is here, I have no problem with the officer telling the young men to vacate the roadway.

I'll go along with this, too.

Below is a graphic of the shots.. ( Click to enlarge )


I have stretched 7 - 10 ( on the horizontal/time scale ) because 7 & 9 don't spike as sharply as 8 & 10; also 9 is really lost in the voiceover...

The amplitude/volume of 7 & 9 is about half of 1 -6, while 8 & 10 are still lower but not by as much..

With the shooting scene space being relatively wide open, it seems to me that the wide variation in the sound is more than likely the mike moving around or being interfered with, than the relative position of the gun..
Of course it could be a combination of both, but I don't see the outside acoustics playing the bigger role here...

Thanks for going the extra mile.
That audio is lot easier to understand now.

[ . . . ] It could have been a situation where they had a tussle at the car, Brown reaches for the gun, realizes he was too slow when the shot goes off. He runs away, Wilson being entirely too quick to the trigger starts a volley. At that point, Brown realizes that the cop is probably not going to stop, decides to turn around. This is what makes Wilson pause, Brown thinks it's his chance and tries to rush. Wilson decides to disregard any chance at tasing, macing or insert_tactic_here, as he has already made up his mind that Brown is a threat, whether he is or not is the $1,000,000 question, and finishes him off.

Again, just what popped off the top of my head. As I've been told since I was a kid that the truth lies somewhere in between both stories, this is what I came up with. We are still missing a ton of information, so it's really hard to tell.

At this point that seems reasonable to me. I wonder how it will stand up to more information as it reaches us.

As soon as a bullet hits bone, all bets are off in forensics, and in the case of a headshot, the bullet impacts bone almost immediately. In the Jodi Arias trial, the prosecution tried to make the case that the trajectory of the bullet that entered Travis Alexander's head indicated that he was in a sitting position when Jodi fired the shot while standing over him. But the examiner pointed out that this could have been the result of deflection from hitting bone.

That means even the 'back to front' trajectory of the last shot is disputable?

We have solid evidence of the stealing cigars and pushing the store clerk. We do not have solid evidence for the assault on the police officer... yet.

If there is solid evidence for the assault on the police officer leaking it might calm a lot of nerves... I believe that was tried but it wasn't exactly solid, and if it isn't solid it will have the opposite effect on nerves.

Don't we have several witness accounts of this assault?

Yes, they are also on the police reports. Called in as "shots on Canfield" and then "4 to 6 shots".

There was apparently also sporadic gunfire in the area during much of the time the police were there.

That would confirm the accounts of the EMTs who claimed they had 'trouble' doing their job at the scene of Brown's death IIRC.

 

[Monketi Ghost]

What does that have to do with the people who are maximizing the incident?

You should have an equal problem with people who are maximizing the incident as you have with people are minimizing the incident.

The incident should means exactly what it does, nothing more and nothing less.

I can't account for what other people post, but as I said, it's hard to make him look worse than his own actions do.
To what maximization do you refer?

 

[Jim_MDP]

I specifically said it is possible. The possibility even rises because there is a claim. That doesn't mean we can't point out that it is not the most likely thing to do in a normal scenario, even one that includes a person who just stole some cigars.

Also, you are equating the not normalcy of stealing cigars with the not normalcy of running at gunfire. I would assume the former is much more frequent of the two "not normal" activities.

Let's be honest here okay?

Almost 40 years ago (I'll assume statutes of limitation have expired), among my mid-teen transgressions, I would put a couple cartons in a store's brown bag (they were on the aisles unlocked back then) and walk out. THAT WAS SHOPLIFTING!

I'm very confident that I'm not forgetting or "blocking" a memory of throttling a cashier on the way out.

Please try to not tell me what I'm "equating". Thanks.

 

[Mumbles]

Don't we have several witness accounts of this assault?

We currently know of none.

That would confirm the accounts of the EMTs who claimed they had 'trouble' doing their job at the scene of Brown's death IIRC.

The Ferguson police, frankly, seem to hear a lot of gunfire that nobody else does. And since the vast majority of civilians there were pretty clear that they wanted no violence at all, well...

 

[Monketi Ghost]

We currently know of none.



The Ferguson police, frankly, seem to hear a lot of gunfire that nobody else does. And since the vast majority of civilians there were pretty clear that they wanted no violence at all, well...

The FPD hears gunfire nobody else does?

 

[eeyore1954]

Assuming that he was actually charging, and Wilson was in fear for his life...why not shoot him in the legs? Why aim for the head?

Do you think he was aiming for the head? Didn't a lot of bullets go in the arm also?

 

[Distracted1]

I think that might be it - a difference in meaning for physical aggression. I see a huge gap between a fight (as, for example, in hockey) and a life-threatening situation calling for deadly force as a response.

This could be because I was raised in Detroit with a lot of older brothers and in a neighborhood where fighting was common. Fighting with a weapon, though, was in a different class of behavior. Grappling, shoving, or a punch or two? Nothing to write home about. So I have a hard time thinking all the kids I grew up with were violent felons deserving bullets to the noggin.

Me too!
Southwest side, Vernor/ Springwells neighborhood. You?

 

[marplots]

Me too!
Southwest side, Vernor/ Springwells neighborhood. You?

Northwest, by Rouge Park

 

[casebro]

How about this for a speculative scenario:

Wilson fires six at the back of the fleeing felon, who then stops,, hands up, and has the thought that the officer is out of bullets and needs to reload, and that he has a time to attack for some hand to hand combat? Turns and charges, and six shots hit their mark.

 

[Distracted1]

And this is why I believe the witnesses, and not the police chief - it makes no damn sense to run *towards* a person who is actively shooting at you, especially if they're a cop. It *does* make sense to just give up in a case like that, particularly if you've already been shot once. How're you going to outrun the cop, with the car, if you're wounded? And even if you *do* outrun him, um, you've got that bullet to take care of, which basically means a hospital visit and once that happens, you're caught.

It's starting to look pretty bad for Officer Wilson, just as far as ethics and job prospects go. Unless he can find evidence that Brown really was going for his gun, he'll have no real excuse for his conduct. Legally, he may still be in the clear, though. And of course, the folks doing the investigation are the same ones driving around and blasting innocent people with tear gas, so I'm sure they'll work to protect him at this point.

You have experience with fighting. Tell me, would you ever entangle yourself with someone who clearly has a gun on his hip and not go for the gun? I can't see myself wrestling around with someone, waiting for him to pull the gun. I am gonna try for it as soon as I am able.

EDIT. Not necessarily to use it on him, but to make sure he definitely doesn't use it on me.

 

[Jim_MDP]

How about this for a speculative scenario:

Wilson fires six at the back of the fleeing felon, who then stops,, hands up, and has the thought that the officer is out of bullets and needs to reload, and that he has a time to attack for some hand to hand combat? Turns and charges, and six shots hit their mark.

I have to say no, no way. No one in the last thirty years (who has actually heard gunfire a few times) considers a revolver the default.

No offense, really.