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Michael Brown Shooting

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You don't see any snark?
Dorian Gray said:
They won't release the officer's name so there is no way to determine if that officer has a history of excessive force.
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theprestige said:
Never fear. I'm sure someone will find another way to poison the well.
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Determining whether the officer has a history of misconduct isn't legitimate, it's just poisoning the well? You seriously believe that?

theprestige said:
At least now we know that it's extremely unlikely that Brown did anything in his encounter with the cop to justify his shooting. Since it turns out that Brown was not only just a "teenager", but was a timid, retiring example of the type, just a frightened kid who would never resort to physical violence if he didn't get his way.
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theprestige said:
I think that someone was complaining about using the term "teen-ager" to connote qualities like innocence, weakness, etc., that while applicable to most thirteen year-olds, don't appear to apply to Brown. Really.
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newyorkguy said:
Are you seriously implying Project Innocence didn't discover instances -- many instances -- where police have gotten suspects facing lesser charges to testify against suspects facing serious charges by promising leniency or using coercion?
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theprestige said:
I know that the Internet is a magical place and all, but underlining words doesn't actually turn them into hyperlinks to supporting documents or corroborating evidence.
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I asked whether -- not you actually, someone else -- was seriously arguing that Project Innocence DIDN'T (is all-caps okay?) find many instances where police coerced people who were facing charges or awaiting sentencing into make incriminating statements. You didn't answer that. In fact, if someone had said, "I'm not familiar with Project Innocence but did they actually find this kind of misconduct was pervasive?" I would've been glad to go the website and spend 20-25 minutes putting together a compelling cite. In fact I was actually kind of hoping someone would because there was a series of cases they uncovered in Brooklyn and Chicago, where it was really astounding to me -- and I know cops, I know some of the stuff that goes on -- the level of misconduct and how prosecutors and the courts turned a blind eye to it.

But no one did. When people react with snark I'm not going to bother spending time putting together a cite because I know they'll either ignore it or I'll get more snark. That gets kind of boring after a while. ;)


shuize said:
Neighborhood orphan children.
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The Central Scrutinizer said:
In wheelchairs. Well, the fortunate ones at least. The others just sort of crawl along the ground.
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theprestige said:
No, Brown carried them. That's how he got so strong.
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I admit to a bit of bias.... I want this to be a "justified" shooting. The scenario presented by the "source" seems....Plausible to me.
Brown has just committed a felony that he likely knows could land him in prison. 18 is legally an adult in Missouri. He's got the loot on his person. And all of a sudden a cop is stopping and giving him the hard eye....

I would imagine he panics. Or maybe he really thinks of himself as a bad-ass thug... Who knows? There is that rather damning social-media pic of brown with his gun and the wad of cash in his mouth.....
At any rate he decides to go for it and attacks the officer and goes for his gun... And looses.

I mean, to me.....That's a more likely scenario than the officer brutally gunning the guy down over being dissed, even physically. Call for backup, deploy the pepper-spray... Whatever. That would be the normal reaction.
I suppose it will come out in the wash.

What I'm afraid of (and no one much is talking about this yet) is what if this is determined to be a "good shoot"? Ferguson erupts in violence again?
Not unlikely.
 
newyorkguy said:
You don't see any snark?




Determining whether the officer has a history of misconduct isn't legitimate, it's just poisoning the well? You seriously believe that?









I asked whether -- not you actually, someone else -- was seriously arguing that Project Innocence DIDN'T (is all-caps okay?) find many instances where police coerced people who were facing charges or awaiting sentencing into make incriminating statements. You didn't answer that. In fact, if someone had said, "I'm not familiar with Project Innocence but did they actually find this kind of misconduct was pervasive?" I would've been glad to go the website and spend 20-25 minutes putting together a compelling cite. In fact I was actually kind of hoping someone would because there was a series of cases they uncovered in Brooklyn and Chicago, where it was really astounding to me -- and I know cops, I know some of the stuff that goes on -- the level of misconduct and how prosecutors and the courts turned a blind eye to it.

But no one did. When people react with snark I'm not going to bother spending time putting together a cite because I know they'll either ignore it or I'll get more snark. That gets kind of boring after a while. ;)
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Either cite Project Innocence directly or stop trying to associate their findings with your notions.
 
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Bikewer said:
I admit to a bit of bias.... I want this to be a "justified" shooting. The scenario presented by the "source" seems....Plausible to me.
Brown has just committed a felony that he likely knows could land him in prison. 18 is legally an adult in Missouri. He's got the loot on his person. And all of a sudden a cop is stopping and giving him the hard eye....

I would imagine he panics. Or maybe he really thinks of himself as a bad-ass thug... Who knows? There is that rather damning social-media pic of brown with his gun and the wad of cash in his mouth.....
At any rate he decides to go for it and attacks the officer and goes for his gun... And looses.

I mean, to me.....That's a more likely scenario than the officer brutally gunning the guy down over being dissed, even physically. Call for backup, deploy the pepper-spray... Whatever. That would be the normal reaction.
I suppose it will come out in the wash.

What I'm afraid of (and no one much is talking about this yet) is what if this is determined to be a "good shoot"? Ferguson erupts in violence again?
Not unlikely.
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That pic isn't Brown.
http://m.nydailynews.com/news/natio...l-brown-pic-facebook-report-article-1.1909021
 
newyorkguy said:
.............
Determining whether the officer has a history of misconduct isn't legitimate, it's just poisoning the well? You seriously believe that?
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Yes...

Unless you also counter with all of the incidents where some one acted properly ... Otherwise you are just counting the hits, and ignoring the misses..


Previous conduct is often not admissible in court..
 
Bikewer said:
I admit to a bit of bias.... I want this to be a "justified" shooting. The scenario presented by the "source" seems....Plausible to me.
Brown has just committed a felony that he likely knows could land him in prison. 18 is legally an adult in Missouri. He's got the loot on his person. And all of a sudden a cop is stopping and giving him the hard eye....
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...and tells him to get the **** off the road. So, instead of complying with the officer's direction, hoping that by being passive the cop continues to drive on, he gets belligerent, causing the cop to turn around and come after him.

Doesn't sound so plausible to me.

If he was concerned that the cop was going to id him, why create a scene? Wouldn't it have been better to just apologize and get off the road, and not give the cop a reason to come after him?
 
pgwenthold said:
<snip>
If he was concerned that the cop was going to id him, why create a scene? Wouldn't it have been better to just apologize and get off the road, and not give the cop a reason to come after him?
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Now that's critical thinking! :cool:
 
I probably said this 20 pages ago but a good way to confuse yourself about any situation is to assume it occurred in a world in which human beings always act logically.

If Brown's judgment sucked as much as mine did when I was 18, then who knows what he did. That goes both ways - it's not like bad officer-involved shootings are purely in the realm of science fiction. They absolutely happen, for a whole spectrum of reasons.

I suspect there are JFK assassination threads on this very forum that have gone exactly the same way. "But if Oswald was really the shooter, why didn't he have a brilliant escape plan organized in advance?" Maybe because he was kind of dumb? Because humans rarely show perfect judgment or even a keen sense of self-preservation?
 
pgwenthold said:
...and tells him to get the **** off the road. So, instead of complying with the officer's direction, hoping that by being passive the cop continues to drive on, he gets belligerent, causing the cop to turn around and come after him.

Doesn't sound so plausible to me.

If he was concerned that the cop was going to id him, why create a scene? Wouldn't it have been better to just apologize and get off the road, and not give the cop a reason to come after him?
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My theory is that it dawned on Wilson that the two looked like the robbers in the radio report, and that's why he backed up to them.
 
newyorkguy said:
You don't see any snark?
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I don't see any in the posts that tsig cited. But you're not referencing those posts, are you? Goalpost move, much?

Indeed, in my reply to you, I acknowledged that snark had occurred, and even went so far as to suggest it was an understandable evolution within the thread. Thank you for taking a few moments to showcase some of my work in that medium.

Determining whether the officer has a history of misconduct isn't legitimate, it's just poisoning the well? You seriously believe that?
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Considering "body of work" et al., I suspected it. After seeing how the similar determination of Brown's history of misconduct has been rejected, I am now even more suspicious that Wilson's history would have been used to poison the well if at all possible. I stand by the snark cited above.

I asked whether -- not you actually, someone else -- was seriously arguing that Project Innocence DIDN'T (is all-caps okay?) find many instances where police coerced people who were facing charges or awaiting sentencing into make incriminating statements. You didn't answer that. In fact, if someone had said, "I'm not familiar with Project Innocence but did they actually find this kind of misconduct was pervasive?" I would've been glad to go the website and spend 20-25 minutes putting together a compelling cite. In fact I was actually kind of hoping someone would because there was a series of cases they uncovered in Brooklyn and Chicago, where it was really astounding to me -- and I know cops, I know some of the stuff that goes on -- the level of misconduct and how prosecutors and the courts turned a blind eye to it.

But no one did. When people react with snark I'm not going to bother spending time putting together a cite because I know they'll either ignore it or I'll get more snark. That gets kind of boring after a while. ; )
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And? You have good posts to share, but you won't because the only audience you care about are the hecklers?
 
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pgwenthold said:
If he was concerned that the cop was going to id him, why create a scene? Wouldn't it have been better to just apologize and get off the road, and not give the cop a reason to come after him?
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They said he was starting school the next week. I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume it wasn't Harvard.
 
LTC8K6 said:
My theory is that it dawned on Wilson that the two looked like the robbers in the radio report, and that's why he backed up to them.
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I never said anything about Wilson, I am talking about the actions of Brown. People are claiming that he got aggressive when Wilson came back because he was afraid he had been ided from the robbery.

But if he was so concerned about being ided from the robbery, why didn't he comply with the cop's order to get off the road? He would know that not getting off the road would only give the cop an excuse to stop him.

As I said, if you are concerned the cops are looking at you suspiciously, wouldn't the best approach just be to do what he says, especially when he tells you to go away? Jeez, if I am worried about being caught, and the cop tells me to get off the road, I wouldn't just get off the road, I'd be looking for a sidewalk that takes me away from that spot! I don't provoke a confrontation.
 
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