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Proof of Immortality II

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xt,
- For now at least, I’m accepting that potential but unrealized combinations would have potential but unrealized combinations of their own.


You accept your own ridiculous proposition that impossible situations can engender further impossible situations?

How magnanimous of you.



- And even if the universe and all possible universes ran out of time and heat (which is hard for me to accept), there would still be an endless chain of potential experiencers that never had a chance of existence -- because all possible universes ran out of time and heat.


Your entire argument appears to be based upon an inability to accept anything outside of a personal view of reality which has no evidential support whatsoever. The whole thing is but one fantasy built upon another.



- I’ll read your response, but I may have to ignore it for a while – depending on how much Dave ties me up.


Are we supposed to pretend not to have noticed that you've ignored almost every response that you've ever received?
 
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Dave,
- For the moment, I'll just say, "No, you don't." Not in Bayesian statistics.

You seem to be confusing the probability of a hypothesis being true with the likelihood of a particular outcome happening given that hypothesis.
 
- I'm talking about the likelihood of a person existing (that IS existing) given "A," and only "A." We're accepting that this person IS existing, and we want to know how that relates to the scientific theory . Does that support -- or undercut -- the scientific theory ? Does that suggest that the scientific theory is wrong?


Scientific model --> scientific belief --> scientific theory.

What's next, Jabba? Scientific lucky dip? Scientific hallucination?

Scientific walrus breath has a nice ring to it. Please consider.
 
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Dave,
- Assuming, for the moment at least, that you're correct about what the current standard cosmological model is, standard cosmological models have been wrong in the past.


And they've been refined in the light of new knowledge becoming available.

In other words, they're nothing like your Fantasiverse.



- But mostly, that one universe would come and go and that be the sum total of existence is really hard to accept.


As it happens, the Universe doesn't give a rodent's rectum whether you accept its behaviour or not.

This is A Good Thing.
 
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Dave,
- Assuming, for the moment at least, that you're correct about what the current standard cosmological model is, standard cosmological models have been wrong in the past. But mostly, that one universe would come and go and that be the sum total of existence is really hard to accept.

Why? And what does that have to do with whether an individual is immortal in some way?
 
Yes, and to calculate the likelihood of that person existing given "A", you need to include all the factors that A says led to her existence.


Dave,
- For the moment, I'll just say, "No, you don't." Not in Bayesian statistics.


There's no need here to even try to address your misunderstanding of Bayes.

You're actually proposing a model in which anything can happen at any time, randomly and without any acknowledgement of the rules of cause and effect.

Even fundamental religion makes more sense than such drivel.
 
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Ahh, thank you kindly! And, thanks for the recommendation of "Tale of the Dueling Neurosurgeons." It is indeed brilliant (I'm about halfway through), and would be a great book for Jabba to read if he had any interest in the actual current state of neuroscience (and history of how we've gotten to where we are).
 
Actually you are wildly miscalculating what the standard model predicts, so you can't say that the fact you are here is impossible given the predictions of the standard model.

And what does the standard model predict? This is a good rough starting point:

http://www.rsvlts.com/2013/07/22/th...asically-zero-so-appreciate-that-infographic/

Basically zero. But not quite, so you are clinging to an infinitesimal smidgeon of non-zero expectation as a pathetic excuse to ignore how close it is to zero.

But that's not the probability that you exist, as the common misinterpretation goes. Presumably you do exist, so that value is 1. But what we often try unsuccessfully to inform these common misinterpreters about is the concept of 'expected value', which is fundamentally different than an observed value, and is one of the few concepts that makes probability useful, because it allows a comparison of expectation to observation. Without some concept of 'expected value' operative in your brain, you would be hard pressed to recognize an unlikely coincidence, for example, which would make you quite gullible in a poker game, for example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expected_value

But it would be a different Kansas, even if an exact duplicate, possibly because Kansas has a soul, self, sense of self, consciousness, experiencer (did it miss one?).

Actually, the only thing you missed was the point Jabba has been plugging away at since I can't remember when. To wit: No matter how many identical brains a finite or infinite universe creates, they're all different brains. In Jabba's way of thinking, this means their identities are not determined exclusively by their physical organization. Thus, Jabba reasons, the sum of all possible identities converges on infinitity, even though the sum of all possible physical organizations may be finite.

Just in case you may at any time become interested in addressing the actual argument. Who knows. Perhaps if you'd concede the point, Jabba might move on to his explanation of how that means immortality.

Fat chance, right? I could count the number of times I've ever seen any of you concede anything on the fingers of no hands.

Nevertheless, as foreign as the concept of conceding anything may be to you, it might be the only way to move the debate forward to it's undoubtedly glorious conclusion. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's the only way any debate ever moves forward.

...

But if we posit an infinitely large universe that exists for an infinite period of time, then the things science says about a finite universe would be wrong.

And what does science say about the universe?

http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_shape.html
http://www.isciencetimes.com/articl...ed-perfect-accuracy-infinite-flat-eternal.htm

http://www.space.com/18811-multiple-universes-5-theories.html

Also, time travel and the ability to make Cleopatra sexually interested in someone who wasn't the Emperor of Rome. It's all so simple!

Anyone with a genome identical to Cleopatra's would serve as well.

At any rate, it does not matter how many identical brains are created throughought the infinite, eternal multiverse. They're all different brains. Each exists at unique spacetime coordinates. Which, to Jabba's way of thinking, means their identities do not depend on their physical organization. Thus, Jabba reasons, the potential number of unique brain-generated identities converges on infinity, whether the universe is finite or not.

Stonewalling is a common pseudo-skeptic tactic. I'm assuming that's not what you are doing, which is why I'm bothering to remind you of other possibilities which may have slipped your mind.
 
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[ . . . ]The previous events that "A" takes into account are 1) deaths "per capita," 2) the sparsity of evidence that there is anything left of the experiencer after death and 3) the abundance of evidence that there is not anything left of the experiencer after death.
- I'm sure that there is a better answer to your questions -- probably having to do with the different types of calculation(?) we might be doing -- but, I'll have to do more mental digging to come up with that answer...

No, Jabba.
Remember that you've yet to establish the existence of an experiencer.
 
..."observer"...?

Oh my god, how could I forget that one? Thanks!

In any case we appear to have moved on to scientific model, scientific belief, scientific theory... I can hardly wait for the next one. Akhenaten had some good ideas. I am betting on scientific guess.
 
Actually, the only thing you missed was the point Jabba has been plugging away at since I can't remember when. To wit: No matter how many identical brains a finite or infinite universe creates, they're all different brains.


No, that's the exact opposite of what Jabba has been claiming.



In Jabba's way of thinking, this means their identities are not determined exclusively by their physical organization.


Exactly. He believes that they're determined, at least in part, by the inclusion of an immortal soul.
 
Toontown said:
In Jabba's way of thinking, this means their identities are not determined exclusively by their physical organization.

We know, and have repeatedly asked Jabba to justify this claim.
 
In Jabba's way of thinking, this means their identities are not determined exclusively by their physical organization.

We know, and have repeatedly asked Jabba to justify this claim.

You seem to have done that for him on several occasions, by pointing out that two identical brains would not be the same brains, usually immediately after Jabba had beaten about the same bush.
 
You seem to have done that for him on several occasions, by pointing out that two identical brains would not be the same brains, usually immediately after Jabba had beaten about the same bush.

Pointing out that two identical brains would not be the same brains does not mean their identities are not determined exclusively by their physical organization.
 
You seem to have done that for him on several occasions, by pointing out that two identical brains would not be the same brains...


...but would still be identical. Jabba's argument seems to involve them somehow having different properties.
 
Pointing out that two identical brains would not be the same brains does not mean their identities are not determined exclusively by their physical organization.
- How about their experiencers? Are their experiencers determined exclusively by their physical organization? Are their experiencers different from each other?
 
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- How about their experiencers? Are their experiencers determined exclusively by their physical organization?

Yes. Every characteristic of the experiencer is determined by the brain, except for its location, which is obviously determined by the location of the brain.
 
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