Michael Brown Shooting

[ProBonoShill]

Yes, because the irrelevant robbery was so definitely not a tangent.



Know a lot of cops? I do. My step-dad was a cop. My best friend has a dad that was a cop. And the stories they tell about abuse in the force would make your blood curdle. Nasty stuff that rarely got reported because the victims are marginalized in society.

My step-dad was glad to be rid of all that when he was able to retire. The good old boys protecting each other club was something he left and didn't look back too fondly on.

So, yes, going on my fairly intimate knowledge of the situation I can verify that police officers tend to be sociopaths that bully just for the sake of bullying and usually get away with it. That is until things just all blow up at once and then everyone pretends to not know why the people are suddenly so mad at them.

Actually my uncle was a cop, he retired as soon as he was eligible in his late forties because he was sick of seeing the worst society has to offer. The stories he told were awful and I felt bad for him. I wouldn't do the same job if you paid me double what he was getting. Luckily during his entire career he never once had to fire his weapon.

Of course none of that has any bearing on the case in Missouri because as any good skeptic knows personal anecdotes aren't really useful.

Now you might have the impression based on my few posts in this thread that I'm very pro police, but that isn't true.
In a past life I had a rather large substance abuse problem that resulted in frequent encounters with law enforcement. Some officers were nice and seemed genuinely concerned about my well being, giving me a break more often than not. Others were much less kind and on a few occasions I was slapped around unjustly (or at least I thought so). To me they were bullies with a badge, but I guess having an attitude and big mouth wasn't really helpful either.

Maybe this particular Ferguson cop's use of force wasn't warranted, if so he deserves a lengthy jail sentence. Problem is we don't know the exact details just yet and I'm willing to wait for ALL of them to surface before I pass judgement, especially after what happened with the Zimmerman case.

If you'd rather jump to conclusions, that's your prerogative.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

...
Had the Ferguson PD had a surveillance tape of officer Wilson engaging in exactly that level of violence shortly before the shooting, should they have withheld it? ....

Holy moly, it's a single shove and what appears to be menacing of some kind.

I cannot believe you think that was a significant level of violence.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

That a ridiculously blurry and pixelated image is somehow evidence of anything.

It was a picture of Wilson to go with the video of Wilson.

I'm not saying one way or another whether he was punched. I'm just saying that this photo is evidence of nothing.

And if you would have actually read the post, you'd see I said nothing different.

[snipped the rest of the cherry picking]

 

[Distracted1]

I don't think the video stills prove anything, and ill wait for the evidence...but having watched the video a few times It does make me curious. Not once does he even make the slightest movement with his hands towards his face--I can't speak for everyone in every circumstance, but when I've been abruptly injured--as in a car wreck--my first instinct has been to check for injuries. He doesn't have a mirror with him. I'd be rubbing my hand over my face to check the extent of injuries, see if blood is pouring out, etc. No sign of that in the video. Inconclusive...but curious IMO.

How long was the video?
Besides, how could a video of one of the principles actions that day demonstrate anything at all about what was going on with them anyway?

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Holy moly, it's a single shove and what appears to be menacing of some kind.

I cannot believe you think that was a significant level of violence.

'Significant' is your choice of words, and you didn't answer the question....

 

[LTC8K6]

The Justice Department, which ordered its own autopsy of Brown’s body, has reached conclusions similar to those reached in two other autopsies, people familiar with the findings said Tuesday. Those autopsies, by the county medical examiner and by a medical examiner brought in by the teen’s family, concluded that Brown was shot six times.

Three for three, presumably.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...0e203c-2757-11e4-958c-268a320a60ce_story.html

 

[ProBonoShill]

Myself, I'm just assuming the cop was a power crazed lunatic out to execute someone, like they all are!

I think we can all safely assume neither of these very uncharitable extremes are the truth. At least, most of us can.

At least those of us with critical thinking skills.

 

[theprestige]

Holy moly, it's a single shove and what appears to be menacing of some kind.

I cannot believe you think that was a significant level of violence.

Would you think it was a significant level of violence if there were footage of Wilson giving Brown a single shove and maybe menacing him a little bit, at the beginning of their encounter?

While we're on the subject, it appears that Wilson has no record of misconduct during his six years on the force. Would you think it was significant if he did have a record of misconduct?

It appears Brown may have had marijuana in his bloodstream. Would you think it significant if Wilson had marijuana in his bloodstream?

If a frat boy at a party shoved a girl and tried to intimidate her into consenting to sex, it'd be called assault and attempted rape. Do you think assault and attempted rape are significant? What about assault and robbery?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

What is it about a line of evidence that makes people cherry pick and single piece and say that one piece proves nothing.

It proves Wilson was not injured enough to seek urgent attention. It proves Wilson was not holding an ice pack on his face.


Now, anyone care to look at that in context?


Or is this an attempt to sidetrack the fact you are all supporting a piece of fake evidence?

 

[BStrong]

Sorry to hear about your Mother.

Yes that's true about bullets. There was a guy in Viet Nam, a buck sergeant, I served with him. His patrol got ambushed and he was shot in the shoulder with an AK round. The bullet deflected, probably off his shoulder blade, went down his back and came out through his buttock. He had two nasty scars, both of which he insisted on showing us.

I know two guys that survived AK round headshots - one from the low front that gouged a trough above the bridge of his nose into his hairline, he looks perpetually surprised as the scar looks like an exclamation mark, and the other took the round from the rear at a side-to-side angle. It shattered his jaw and took a big part of his tongue. He's disfigured and has a speech impediment, but he's alive.

I believe that the reason we see officers and on occasion armed civilians "overshoot" as judged from afar or the armchair is that no matter how many times they're instructed during training the average joe has been conditioned by popular fiction to believe that in the event they fire a weapon in defense and make a solid hit on their attacker they will observe the individual react dramatically, but no such reaction is likely.

I'd advise anyone interested in the subject matter to get a copy of the VHS or DVD Deadly Weapons, a tape originally intended to be instructional for LEO's. The video was created by Rich Davis, owner of Second Chance body armor and the inventor of soft body armor.

Among actual live fire testing of many different common pistol, revolver and rifle cartridges there is a section where Rich shows himself and his assistant (ex-S.F.P.D.) testing body armor the hard way - Rich shoots himself twice with a S. & W. model 629 .44 magnum while wearing one of his Deep Cover soft armor under shirt models - with no effect other than to rip up his t shirt, and Rick then proceeds to shoot Alex twice at point blank range with FAL in 7.62 NATO - an absolute full power rifle cartridge - once with Alex balancing on one foot w/ Alex wearing a vest specifically designed to stop such rounds, and the but strikes do not push him to the rear even while standing on one foot.

For a more lethal example, this video (warning, graphic violence) shows South African Police firing on striking miners up close using the local made Galil variant in 5.56 NATO, the R5

http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2012/aug/16/south-african-police-miners-lonmin

Notice that even with concentrated semi and full auto fire the shot miners are not blown backwards as popular fiction dictates.

I'l tell you from after action interviews with officers who've been through their first lethal force use one of the most common statements is that even though the autopsy shows multiple rounds fired impacted the target the officer in the moment didn't believe they had hit the target at all until the target drops. Even though (in the case of officers I had trained when they came on the job with out agency) they had been instructed that a living target most often shows no physical reaction to projectile impacts they expected otherwise.

FTR, one of the few benefits from surviving gunshot or other wounds is the opportunity to show off the evidence later - better than any tattoo, and much more expensive to acquire.

 

[shuize]

Holy moly, it's a single shove and what appears to be menacing of some kind.

A single shove after the racist shopkeeper refused to donate to the orphan children's wheelchair fund. The menacing only occurred after the shopkeeper said something mean about sickle-cell anemia.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

....
It proves Wilson was not injured enough to seek urgent attention. It proves Wilson was not holding an ice pack on his face.
...........

Only the latter is correct, and I'm curious as to where you would guess he could have obtained an ice pack if he had wanted one?

 

[Distracted1]

Holy moly, it's a single shove and what appears to be menacing of some kind.

I cannot believe you think that was a significant level of violence.

I have asked you before about your personal experience with levels of violence, and received no response. That is okay, it is your prerogative to not reply and I am not entitled to make estimations of naïveté based upon a non response.

I would have more faith in your evaluation of the violence level, however, if I could shake the feeling that you wouldn't be making lots of noise about the brutality of officer Wilson if there had arisen a recording of him behaving exactly that way.

 

[Unabogie]

What is it about a line of evidence that makes people cherry pick and single piece and say that one piece proves nothing.

It proves Wilson was not injured enough to seek urgent attention. It proves Wilson was not holding an ice pack on his face.


Now, anyone care to look at that in context?


Or is this an attempt to sidetrack the fact you are all supporting a piece of fake evidence?

Wait, you mean "skeptics" on this board are buying the word of Jim freaking Hoft? The same ones who've spent the week glad-handing each other about how robust their critical thinking skills are?



Critical thinking, my ass. I've dropped out of this thread for a bit since it's turned into one loud primal scream from the supporters of the cop, but for gawds sake, Jim Hoft is actually being taken at face value? He posted an X-RAY that's from a text book. No one is corroborating him. The video of the cop disputes the idea. The police chief described his injury as "swelling". Hoft lies, like all the time, and even uses white supremacist sites as sources. I know, let's see what Alex Jones has to say! I bet he's got some news too!

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Would you think it was a significant level of violence if there were footage of Wilson giving Brown a single shove and maybe menacing him a little bit, at the beginning of their encounter?

No, actually. We already know Wilson likely did something like that ordering two teens off of a tiny residential street.

Now if Wilson was laying into a mentally ill woman with his fists because she was walking on to the freeway, that would be relevant.

While we're on the subject, it appears that Wilson has no record of misconduct during his six years on the force. Would you think it was significant if he did have a record of misconduct?

If the misconduct was charges of excessive force or had he been involved in the beating of the wrongly identified and wrongly arrested guy in the Ferguson jail, it would be. If he propositioned a prostitute, probably not relevant.

It appears Brown may have had marijuana in his bloodstream. Would you think it significant if Wilson had marijuana in his bloodstream?

No, not at all. Pot might have mellowed Wilson out. Alcohol, on the other hand would have been relevant.

If a frat boy at a party shoved a girl and tried to intimidate her into consenting to sex, it'd be called assault and attempted rape. Do you think assault and attempted rape are significant? What about assault and robbery?

So now you are conflating shoplifting some cigars with coerced sexual assault? Seriously? That's bad even for you.

 

[LTC8K6]

Only the latter is correct, and I'm curious as to where you would guess he could have obtained an ice pack if he had wanted one?

Yeah, he has shot Brown just moments before...

Why would he have an ice pack on his face already?

 

[Unabogie]

And it should be noted that all of these leaks coming out from the FPD are being fed through far right wing hate sites like Hoft's, or just through the usual channels like Hannity, Dana Loesch, etc. Just like Zimmerman, the far right cozies right up to anyone who kills a black person. It's almost as if they are actively rooting against black people?

Nah, that's crazy talk.

 

[Distracted1]

Would you think it was a significant level of violence if there were footage of Wilson giving Brown a single shove and maybe menacing him a little bit, at the beginning of their encounter?

While we're on the subject, it appears that Wilson has no record of misconduct during his six years on the force. Would you think it was significant if he did have a record of misconduct?

It appears Brown may have had marijuana in his bloodstream. Would you think it significant if Wilson had marijuana in his bloodstream?

If a frat boy at a party shoved a girl and tried to intimidate her into consenting to sex, it'd be called assault and attempted rape. Do you think assault and attempted rape are significant? What about assault and robbery?

I tried that logic in 2654, but got no traction.

 

[LTC8K6]

Wait, you mean "skeptics" on this board are buying the word of Jim freaking Hoft? The same ones who've spent the week glad-handing each other about how robust their critical thinking skills are?



Critical thinking, my ass. I've dropped out of this thread for a bit since it's turned into one loud primal scream from the supporters of the cop, but for gawds sake, Jim Hoft is actually being taken at face value? He posted an X-RAY that's from a text book. No one is corroborating him. The video of the cop disputes the idea. The police chief described his injury as "swelling". Hoft lies, like all the time, and even uses white supremacist sites as sources. I know, let's see what Alex Jones has to say! I bet he's got some news too!

I had actually never heard of him before.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Possible reasons that confirmation of "orbital blowout" thing haven't come out yet include:

- Darren Wilson is still alive, and HIPAA may be a consideration for him where it wouldn't be for an autopsy of the deceased Brown. Bear in mind, HIPAA might stop a government official from coming out and officially releasing this information, but it might not stop a leak of same.

- Major news outlets may have been exposed to the information but aren't coming out in a big way with it because firstly they don't want to support Wilson, and secondly may be paranoid about violating the aforementioned HIPAA thing due to the way in which the information has come to them.

- Again and again, it must be pointed out that it's an ongoing investigation and that adds a lot of red tape to release of certain info. This may be compounded by who is largely controlling the investigation now. As it has gotten more prominent, those in charge are probably bickering internally about whether anything that seems to support Wilson coming out is going to inflame tensions, etc. They may not be particularly motivated to jump through whatever hoops are necessary to get Wilson to sign a release on the information or whatever might be required... when they've already informed the public that he had a facial injury. The powers that be might right now be looking for any excuse to throw Wilson to the wolves, and making him look innocent may be a goal which is rapidly being abandoned.

Lots and lots of possibilities.