Michael Brown Shooting

[Skeptic Tank]

So are you also walking the charging bull back? Did Brown trip? None of the wounds besides the two in the head would have physically made Brown fall, at least that was my impression of what Baden said.

I also never presented charging bull as something I found likely. I was the first person in the thread to suggest the head wounds happened as he stumbled forward/went to the ground and now one of the leading ME's in the country has come out and said that is the best explanation for those wounds (where's my cookie?)

Could've tripped, but that's not what I'm finding most likely.

What you said in the hilite I disagree with. If you start charging toward someone and then you get pelted with gunfire, there are numerous reason that could make you pitch forward, lose balance, fall forward, stumble... whatever you want to call it or envision.

As previously suggested, it could be the shock of that trauma. It could be the unexpected counterforce making him lose his balance... it could be the reflexive fear reaction of "omg I'm getting shot" and his muscles instinctively trying to do something to redirect him, but at that point the trauma is accumulating so much that his attempts to change what he's doing just end up translating into falling because he tries to change too rapidly...

Lots and lots of reasons a person would fall when getting shot. Could be a combination of several reasons. What is tripping and stumbling forward when you are running caused by, under normal circumstances? Coming into contact with something unexpected and losing your balance... right? Losing your footing either because your foot caught some uneven ground, or a rock, or some object... or just because you weren't doing a good job at operating your legs and feet.

You don't think getting hit by several bullets could be the sort of unexpected disruption that could make you lose your footing, as you reflexively react to it, try to compensate for the counterforce, etc?

 

[casebro]

How about he was running away with his head bent over backwards, so the shots in the back were top down? Darn that won't work with the facial injuries from falling. Oh wait sumore, instant death, but momentum caries him forward and he fell on his face... wait again, that would put him head away from the cop car.... wait smore....., his face hit the pavement and dug in, and momentum spun him around until feet were away from the cop car. That's it, tied up all the loose ends. Case Closed.

Or maybe this is more likely:

After Brown slams door on the cop as he exits the car, and tries to grab gun, one shot in the cop car, cop pursues, not firing a shot. Brown stops, hands up, turns around. Brown knows he is in deep kimshee, makes one more try to strong arm the cop, charges like a football player trying for a tackle. Hey, the cop's first shot did him little harm. Six shots towards center of mass in self defense.

 

[casebro]

Will Baden be dotting tox tests too? I think yesterdays report that was 'leaked' was a preliminary?

 

[LTC8K6]

Only the county autopsy has legal weight, right?

Baden's doesn't really matter, and the Feds have no jurisdiction.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Parcell, Baden's assistant just said on CNN that their autopsy is consistent with either charging or just standing there facing the officer.

When asked about hands up at time of shots, or the one wound being from the back he essentially said the wounds are consistent with any arm position and the one shot could have been from behind, or from front.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

How about he was running away with his head bent over backwards, so the shots in the back were top down? Darn that won't work with the facial injuries from falling. Oh wait sumore, instant death, but momentum caries him forward and he fell on his face... wait again, that would put him head away from the cop car.... wait smore....., his face hit the pavement and dug in, and momentum spun him around until feet were away from the cop car. That's it, tied up all the loose ends. Case Closed.

Or maybe this is more likely:

After Brown slams door on the cop as he exits the car, and tries to grab gun, one shot in the cop car, cop pursues, not firing a shot. Brown stops, hands up, turns around. Brown knows he is in deep kimshee, makes one more try to strong arm the cop, charges like a football player trying for a tackle. Hey, the cop's first shot did him little harm. Six shots towards center of mass in self defense.

I think Mr. Occam is leaning this way.

 

[Elagabalus]

Parcell, Baden's assistant just said on CNN that their autopsy is consistent with either charging or just standing there facing the officer.

When asked about hands up at time of shots, or the one wound being from the back he essentially said the wounds are consistent with any arm position and the one shot could have been from behind, or from front.

In other words ...everything is still in play ...

Resume discussion!

 

[Distracted1]

Wow, there's like 200 new posts from yesterday. One of the witnesses says that Darren Wilson, not Mike Brown, was the one "charging like a bull" (which is the meme of the day in Wingnutistan).

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/art...hased_After_Michael_Brown_While_Shooting_Him/

I can clearly see that this will sway exactly no one, especially not our benighted True Skeptics, but this completely demolishes the idea that Wilson hung back and was attacked. He ran out of his car, shooting as he ran (which is insanely reckless) and shot Brown until he was dead. That's what happened. People were there. No one but the cop disputes this (if he even did, since police still have not released the incident report!). The autopsy (multiple autopsies) is completely consistent with this. There are multiple witnesses who all saw the same thing. The cops have reacted like the last thing in the world they want is an open airing of what transpired.

Now, will Darren Wilson pay for this? Nah, there are too many people who quite simply don't care all that much when a black kid gets killed.

The prodigal skeptic returns.

Of course that is what happened. If you say so. Questioning it somehow just isn't skeptical

It's been a while since someone cried " racist " in here, thanks for bringing it back.

 

[Cylinder]

Only the county autopsy has legal weight, right?

Baden's doesn't really matter, and the Feds have no jurisdiction.

Both have whatever legal weight a grand jury or trial jury decides to assign them. Neither maintain a privileged position here other than the state has the right to compel an autopsy under various circumstances.

 

[stanfr]

Ill revise my earlier speculation and predict Wilson will walk. The forensics can be argued any which way. It will come down to eye-witness credibility, which will not be enough to overcome reasonable doubt. Next case...

 

[Lerxst]

I think only the True Believers^(tm) are still clinging to the "execution" story. Most everyone else has moved on.

They keep using that word. I don't think it means what they think it means.

 

[Distracted1]

Wow, there's like 200 new posts from yesterday. One of the witnesses says that Darren Wilson, not Mike Brown, was the one "charging like a bull" (which is the meme of the day in Wingnutistan).

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/art...hased_After_Michael_Brown_While_Shooting_Him/

I can clearly see that this will sway exactly no one, especially not our benighted True Skeptics, but this completely demolishes the idea that Wilson hung back and was attacked. He ran out of his car, shooting as he ran (which is insanely reckless) and shot Brown until he was dead. That's what happened. People were there. No one but the cop disputes this (if he even did, since police still have not released the incident report!). The autopsy (multiple autopsies) is completely consistent with this. There are multiple witnesses who all saw the same thing. The cops have reacted like the last thing in the world they want is an open airing of what transpired.

Now, will Darren Wilson pay for this? Nah, there are too many people who quite simply don't care all that much when a black kid gets killed.

What of the witness that saw the officer charging? Is he/she one of the witnesses that "all saw the same thing ". Perhaps we need to work out what the terms " all ", and " the same thing " mean?

 

[dudalb]

Yep. If drugs in your system is a justification for summary execution by cops, then I suppose it's officially open season on Wall Street.

Well, since you believe in summary judgement before knowing facts to fit in with a political ideology......

 

[dudalb]

Ill revise my earlier speculation and predict Wilson will walk. The forensics can be argued any which way. It will come down to eye-witness credibility, which will not be enough to overcome reasonable doubt. Next case...

If Wilson walks,it is not going to be pretty out on the streets.

Look, if the evidence points to a justified shooting, then Wilson should walk, regardless of cosqeuences. I believe that "Let Justice Be Done, Though The SKies Fall" (a slogan that is inscribed on the Supreme Court Building in DC) in the end, is better then a deliberate injustice done just to keep things quiet.
But I am also aware that,given this case has already dwarfed Zimmerman in terms of publicity I don't think we will be spared the Rodney King experience if he walks. I would love to be proven wrong on this.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

If Wilson walks,it is not going to be pretty out on the streets.

Look, if the evidence points to a justified shooting, then Wilson should walk, regardless of cosqeuences. I believe that "Let Justice Be Done, Though The SKies Fall" (a slogan that is inscribed on the Supreme Court Building in DC) in the end, is better then a deliberate injustice done just to keep things quiet.
But I am also aware that,given this case has already dwarfed Zimmerman in terms of publicity I don't think we will be spared the Rodney King experience if he walks. I would love to be proven wrong on this.

Hmm, not sure I agree.

This has certainly been a lot of publicity over the last week, but the Zimmerman thing was sustained publicity for like a year and a half and is still prominent and mentioned often. It remains to be seen what sort of staying power this case has.

 

[Elagabalus]

Ill revise my earlier speculation and predict Wilson will walk. The forensics can be argued any which way. It will come down to eye-witness credibility, which will not be enough to overcome reasonable doubt. Next case...

I tend to agree. It will also come down to the grouping of shots also relying on witness testimony. Shots all at once in rapid succession which will favor Wilson or one or two shots fired, followed by rapid burst, then a pause, then the two coup de grace shots.

 

[Distracted1]

Walking that charging bull back now, are you?

How someone runs at another person they intend to tackle, or run through.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/130805070653-art-donovan-restricted-horizontal-gallery.jpg

Silly looking image, I know. There are others that demonstrate the position of the body during a charge more clearly, but they all seemed to be prejudicial in nature.
As this man runs towards the camera, the top of his head is completely exposed.

 

[Ladewig]

Who here really believes you should be able to assault a police officer and try to take his firearm, and expect to come out of that situation alive?

I'll give a qualified yes.

If a perp assaults an officer, tries to get his gun, and manages to get 30 feet away from the officer and is not armed with a gun or knife, then I believe he should expect to live. Even if he is running away so fast that the cop could not reasonably expect to catch him, I believe it is wrong to shoot that person while he is running away DISCLAIMER: I am not saying that that is what happened in Missouri. I am merely responding to a proposed hypothetical.

Who here really believes someone who does that cannot reasonably be seen as a threat to society at large if he's allowed to escape?

I do not think that every person who can reasonably be labelled a threat to society should be killed by being shot in the back by a LEO who is unable to apprehend him. I believe that it is better for him to escape police custody than for him to be killed in that manner DISCLAIMER: I am not saying that that is what happened in Missouri. I am merely responding to a proposed hypothetical.

This thread is having a hard enough time staying on the tracks while traveling at break-neck speeds. If this hypothetical discussion needs to be continued, then perhaps it should be done in another thread.

 

[Kaosium]

Don't know.

But as someone who lives in the area, I can tell you from previous experience that Antonio French isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer.

Noted.

He's talking about organized anarchists coming in from other places including out of state. I suspect that they brought the Molotov cocktails and are teaching the locals how to use them.

The ones that are sometimes called 'black block' (not in reference to race) anarchists?

Or perhaps the New Black Panthers who've been seen there?

Coordinated activities of this nature are troubling.

 

[dudalb]

Hmm, not sure I agree.

This has certainly been a lot of publicity over the last week, but the Zimmerman thing was sustained publicity for like a year and a half and is still prominent and mentioned often. It remains to be seen what sort of staying power this case has.

Zimmerman never got the wall to wall coverage that this case got primarily because of the unrest that followed.